Is FF gone as a party?

ILoveYourVibes

Is it time that FF and FG merged?

That would really damage FG right now. But the party they became wouldn't be certain to survive.

Many people don't trust the competency and honesty of what that party would become.

The only thing FG have going for them is they are more honest than FF and more competent. Merge they lose that.

Also its a scenario where is FFFG vrs SF. I dont see either party relishing that scenario.

No one knows if they would keep the votes the two parties have or lose them.

I know people who will never vote FF again and if FG merge with them they won't vote for that party either.

meeeeh

I don't think FG and FF need to merge even if either of them gets smaller. In Germany CDU and CSU happily coexist and rule with some exceptions since WW2.

Anyway I don't think there is much perspective in FF parliamentary party. Half of them are there because their father was there and not because they actually have anything to offer.

Melanchthon

I don't think the million dollar question has been asked yet?

How many FF voters will not put them on the ballot sheet if FF enter a coalition with SF. There is an extremely vocal anti-SF online but what's the actual numbers within FF voters, I feel that most of the strongly anti-SF are voting FG anyway.
On this thread how many put FF as a 1st preference but wouldn't if they went in with SF

Continuing to stay in power with FG is destroying them as FG are better at all the neo-liberal and socially progressive politics and FF won't go socially conservative enough or financially left wing enough to have a counter influence.


I am very biased in this matter but I really do think that FF going in with SF could save them. There is a decent amount of traditional cross over support between the two. FF acting as a moderating influence on a SF coalition makes practical sense.

A coalition with SF might open up an awful lot of transfer votes to FF.
It also makes real sense for both parties, SF probably don't want to have to implement some of the more "woke"/left things they talk about it as it would hit their working class support base, FF could claim wins by stopping them while SF can hold their support base together.

meeeeh

My mother in law is staunch FFer and can't stand SF. She doesn't like FG either but there is no comparison in who she dislikes more.

I can't vote in Ireland so my opinion doesn't really count but judging by the SF TD's and many of FF TD's you would be hard pressed to find enough of minister calibre among them for a government.

Loafing Oaf

Melanchthon wrote: »

I am very biased in this matter but I really do think that FF going in with SF could save them. There is a decent amount of traditional cross over support between the two. FF acting as a moderating influence on a SF coalition makes practical sense.

A coalition with SF might open up an awful lot of transfer votes to FF.

I don't believe this. SF don't want FF as a partner, their aspiration is to form a government with other 'truly' left/progressive parties. Obviously the logical thing for an SF voter who shares this objective is not to transfer to either FF or FG.

RandomViewer

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I don't believe this. SF don't want FF as a partner, their aspiration is to form a government with other 'truly' left/progressive parties. Obviously the logical thing for an SF voter who shares this objective is not to transfer to either FF or FG.

SF would be politically similar to Albert Reynolds era FF, most SF voters don't want a PBP socialist utopia, just a bit more fairness

RandomViewer

Melanchthon wrote: »

I don't think the million dollar question has been asked yet?

How many FF voters will not put them on the ballot sheet if FF enter a coalition with SF. There is an extremely vocal anti-SF online but what's the actual numbers within FF voters, I feel that most of the strongly anti-SF are voting FG anyway.
On this thread how many put FF as a 1st preference but wouldn't if they went in with SF

Continuing to stay in power with FG is destroying them as FG are better at all the neo-liberal and socially progressive politics and FF won't go socially conservative enough or financially left wing enough to have a counter influence.


I am very biased in this matter but I really do think that FF going in with SF could save them. There is a decent amount of traditional cross over support between the two. FF acting as a moderating influence on a SF coalition makes practical sense.

A coalition with SF might open up an awful lot of transfer votes to FF.
It also makes real sense for both parties, SF probably don't want to have to implement some of the more "woke"/left things they talk about it as it would hit their working class support base, FF could claim wins by stopping them while SF can hold their support base together.

FF supporters seem thin on the ground on Boards, there's to hardline groups of FG and SF with some half-hearted Defence from the FG ones when an FFer comes under fire but in reality FF have fallen into the Labour mire

jmcc

Bobtheman wrote: »

It then made a poor decision to make howlin leader. I think Alan Kelly is good and the more maverick he can be the better.

The problem for Labour is that he is the best of a bad bunch. There isn't much talent in what's left of Labour and the next big hurdle, if the FFG government does not collapse, are the Local Elections.

A lot of teachers will never vote Labour after what Quinn did to education with bull**** reforms.

He was a disaster as a minister and many of the students affected by his "reforms" are now voters.

The fact that the old timers were given one more spin on the cabinet merry go round did damage too.

The same thing is affecting FF with Martin being the obvious example. FF needed to break with the crony past of of Ahern/Cowen. It didn't.

I don't think the next election is a done deal by any stretch of the imagination. FF still have time to turn it around.

FF is still a major player in terms of seats but it has to remove Martin and his gang. It looks like the major issues for the next GE will be housing, health, the economy and unification. FF is weak on all them at the moment but the last one is the most dangerous. SF is taking ownership of the unification issue. It is one issue that FF should have been dominating but due to the neo-Unionist instincts of Martin and his gang, it is indulging in another capitualation and surrender venture as it did with FG.

Regards...jmcc

meeeeh

RandomViewer wrote: »

FF supporters seem thin on the ground on Boards, there's to hardline groups of FG and SF with some half-hearted Defence from the FG ones when an FFer comes under fire but in reality FF have fallen into the Labour mire

And that's exactly they would be much better of to let SF form whatever government they want and be an utter disappointment. At the moment a lot of people who have no clue about politics are pinning their hopes on SF. Their populist election promises will go the same way as Labour's Every Little Hurts.

Loafing Oaf

RandomViewer wrote: »

SF would be politically similar to Albert Reynolds era FF, most SF voters don't want a PBP socialist utopia, just a bit more fairness

I think most of them want a bit more than that, and it's hard to see how FF can be part of such radical change.

Now it's possible SF may be forced by 'the numbers' after the election to do a deal with FF, and the two parties find they rub along quite amicably. But if we're talking about FF maximising its vote at that election, IMO any small gains FF makes in transfers by cosying up to SF will be dwarfed by the mass exodus of 'middle Ireland' voters to FG.

awec

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I think most of them want a bit more than that, and it's hard to see how FF can be part of such radical change.

Now it's possible SF may be forced by 'the numbers' after the election to do a deal with FF, and the two parties find they rub along quite amicably. But if we're talking about FF maximising its vote at that election, IMO any small gains FF makes in transfers by cosying up to SF will be dwarfed by the mass exodus of 'middle Ireland' voters to FG.

I would be surprised if FF hadn't run the numbers of what they'd gain versus what they'd lose in a deal with SF when they were looking at a coalition with FG.

RandomViewer

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I think most of them want a bit more than that, and it's hard to see how FF can be part of such radical change.

Now it's possible SF may be forced by 'the numbers' after the election to do a deal with FF, and the two parties find they rub along quite amicably. But if we're talking about FF maximising its vote at that election, IMO any small gains FF makes in transfers by cosying up to SF will be dwarfed by the mass exodus of 'middle Ireland' voters to FG.

FG have set themselves up as the party of the "Haves" while making more people fall into the category of " Have Nots", Covid will be seen as an FG policy

J.O. Farmer

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I think most of them want a bit more than that, and it's hard to see how FF can be part of such radical change.

Now it's possible SF may be forced by 'the numbers' after the election to do a deal with FF, and the two parties find they rub along quite amicably. But if we're talking about FF maximising its vote at that election, IMO any small gains FF makes in transfers by cosying up to SF will be dwarfed by the mass exodus of 'middle Ireland' voters to FG.

None of the big 3 are going to cosy up to any of the other 2 ahead of the next election. They'll all say no chance of them going in with the other 2.

Think back to the last GE campaign FF and FG would have said they wouldn't go into coalition. After much pretending to look at other options the option which seemed most likely the night after the election was what happened. This was basically what happened after the previous election too with FF opting not to formally become a junior partner.

Next time will be no different, the numbers will decide which 2 out of 3 are in government but I don't expect FF and FG i government together simply because another government with them rotating Taoiseachs would mean they've effectively merged.

Rotating Taoiseachs would also require them to be within a couple of seats of each other. If there was say 10 in the difference neither will want to be the junior partner. In that case we may have confidence and supply mark II or someone going in with SF as "that's what the electorate decided".

RandomViewer

RandomViewer wrote: »

FG have set themselves up as the party of the "Haves" while making more people fall into the category of " Have Nots", Covid will be seen as an FG policy

Covid, this virus that spread from China, will be seen as a FG policy.

Ok. Is it time to shut Boards down?

RandomViewer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Covid, this virus that spread from China, will be seen as a FG policy.

Ok. Is it time to shut Boards down?

Covid policies,but English isn't your first language so we'll make allowances, Komrade

VinLieger

RandomViewer wrote: »

FG have set themselves up as the party of the "Haves" while making more people fall into the category of " Have Nots", Covid will be seen as an FG policy

I disagree, FG definitely earned respect from everyone for the initial few months however they are absolutely part of the shambles since they went into coalition.

But my general impression of how the blame game is working and will eventually settle is that FF will bear the brunt of it most likely because both the Taoiseach and Health minister are FF and understandably are the main faces of covid policy.

FG wont come out of this clean but will be nowhere near as bad as FF. If FF wanna get clean quickly they need to pile MM with all the blame and ditch him the second covid isnt the main game in town politically speaking.

However as many have said im not aware of any up and comers in FF who will make for a exciting leader top drag them out of this.

jimmycrackcorm

The next election is likely to see SF and FF go into coalition with Sf being the bigger party. After that FF will go the same way that junior coalition parties go such as the Greens and Labour, getting all the blame for everything the government does.

RandomViewer

RandomViewer wrote: »

Covid policies,but English isn't your first language so we'll make allowances, Komrade

You're the one who didn't complete the following sentence.

"Covid will be seen as an FG policy"

Also, "an" FG policy?

LOL

meeeeh

VinLieger wrote: »

I disagree, FG definitely earned respect from everyone for the initial few months however they are absolutely part of the shambles since they went into coalition.

I think FG dealt very well with economic fall out but Irish dealing with health implications of pandemic was complete shambles in the first wave. The only reason people think Ireland did well is because we were not as bad Brits. We were worse than most EU countries. Comparable sized countries had kids back to school in May and hairdressers open. We were discussing should we be allowed more than 3km from home. Weather you blame health advice or the government, it was appealing how long and how severely we were locked up because nobody actually knew where infections were. I can't see any other reason for respect but ignorance.

Strumms

Deleted User wrote: »

We shouldn’t be investing anymore in healthcare until we get some serious returns for the money whether FF do it or not.

Tell that to anybody waiting on funding to get into Doolaghs Park or the NRH following chronic brain injury following an accident or illness for example. The evidence shows the fûckwits would rather send you home with a care package then try to rehabilitate you with intensive expert help in an inpatient setting. The funding isn’t there, the will isn’t there.

Even as an outpatient the assistance in those situations is cack. You’d have a state physio turn up every two weeks and bring you for a walk followed by a massage.

We should be investing more in healthcare, in particular rehabilitative treatments for people who have been victims chronic illnesses...

But good luck trying to attain a place and or funding...

Should we be looking for better bang for our buck ? Certainly, start off by limiting the assistances we can and will provide to non tax payers, non residents for a start.

Prioritize the health services and all treatments to enable them and it to serve tax payers here... you pay in, you should be entitled to receive help when you need it... prioritizing the needs, health and welfare of recent arrivals OVER taxpayers here is not something that should be allowed to happen...

If you arrive at the airport to check in with your family for a holiday to Spain, but get told on arrival you are now standby and the flight is full, as a family turned up, couldn’t afford the tickets but were facilitated in your seats... you’d be pissed... recent arrivals availing of fast track medical treatment ahead of you, housing ahead of you, the same.

Will FF have the stones ? Doubtful.

Will FG have the stones ? No, they want cheaper labour for the businessman.

RandomViewer

RandomViewer wrote: »

What's the weather like in Kiev?

LOL

Melanchthon

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I don't believe this. SF don't want FF as a partner, their aspiration is to form a government with other 'truly' left/progressive parties. Obviously the logical thing for an SF voter who shares this objective is not to transfer to either FF or FG.

I would disagree, I don't think they want to be in with the hard left or very socially conscious parties. It would be very unstable and they would be constantly outflanked on the left by them in government. SF talk left progressive a lot but a lot of their support isn't.
Take the shooting of George N'chenko, they stayed out of it compared to the other left politicians.
Going into government with them when some level of fiscal responsibility will be required will mean SF get blamed for the hard choices, the others groups involved are happy enough to be individual protest votes but SF want to remain and be a big legimate option so crashing the government or crashing the economy are both much worse for them thank People before Profit.

With FF though it could be a symbiotic relationship, with both parties using the other as an excuse to not do things.

awec wrote: »

I would be surprised if FF hadn't run the numbers of what they'd gain versus what they'd lose in a deal with SF when they were looking at a coalition with FG.

Maybe they did but they probably also thought they would gain votes in government, FF shouldn't be surprised at being hammered as they have basically done nothing for any of their voter groups.
In general look at Dublin to see how areas that would have had strong FF support have shifted to SF, the supporters are closer than is portrayed.

Bobtheman

theballz wrote: »

loooooooool you can’t be serious? Ireland is not a welfare state.

Interesting viewpoint. Compared to whom exactly?

GarIT

Melanchthon wrote: »

Take the shooting of George N'chenko, they stayed out of it compared to the other left politicians.

A lot of their TDs and councillors were quick to call it a racist murder. I was blocked by a few members and the youth section for saying that shooting someone with a knife trying to enter a house might not have been because of the colour of his skin.

Bobtheman

It would be interesting to see A SF lead government.
A lot of voters don't think things through and expect miracles.
I do see SF as credible on housing and insurance.
FG in particular disgraceful when it comes to both issues.
However realistically SF would have to go in with FG or FF.
But I would not rule out the return of this government.
It's a long way from the next election.
Adieu

jimwallace197

markodaly wrote: »

The tropes about Helen McEntee for example. She worked in Citibank for 3 years before entering politics. The strange and weird statements about her being anti-man and some hard extreme feminists.. blah blah blah... the usual sexist stuff about women in politics bolted on.

I wouldnt call working there for much less than those 3 years and as an intern as working in the real world, would you??? Don't believe everything you read on her wikipedia page. She wasn't long in running off to the safety chambers of dail eireann and working for her father there before she inherited his seat.

Everything else I have said about her is true not including on top of this, she was one of those politicians who over claimed on her expenses bill as a td because of a random audit in 2014. Put it down to human error she did, not very becoming of a minister for justice now is it? Well trained in the arts of being a politician in this country before her father passed away no doubt.

As for her agenda against men, the fact that the DRCC & womans aid think she is doing a fantastic job already says everything we need to know about her position. Has she once sought to address issues of domestic violence against men & false accusations of rape/sexual assualt against men either?? She cant stop herself from going on the likes of the Claire Byrne show amongst others informing people how she wants to come down hard on it but there is radio silence when it comes to matters affecting men. She is meant to be objective and impartial, she's certainly not.

To top it off, she thought it right to appoint Seamus Wolfe to the supreme court herself without considering other more qualified applicants who were actual judges or consulting with her superiors (Taoiseach, Tanaiste, Green leader). Mainly because the corrupt Varadkar recommended him and Woulfe is known to be a keen supporter of Fine Gael as well.

All of it begs the question, just who does she think she is?? Ideas far above her station. Again, the sooner she & the Fine Gael party are removed permanently from power the better. The fact that they finished third in the last election and Varadkar was barely elected himself tells you everything you need to know about what people in this country think of them.

Bubbaclaus

^^
News to me that you can "inherit" a seat in the Dail. As far as I knew, she was elected by the people in her constituency, like all other TDs.

Bobtheman

Unfortunately it's all the poor women these days.
Appeals to a certain voter but most voters don't vote on feminist credentials. Even feminists. They will largely vote with their pocket or whether they have a roof over their head.
Nothing against her. She is just another of the entitled political clan.

McMurphy

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

^^
News to me that you can "inherit" a seat in the Dail. As far as I knew, she was elected by the people in her constituency, like all other TDs.

He's not alone thinking that...... FG ministers son seemed to think it too.

Oireachtas 'more hereditary' than Lords

The son of a former Fine Gael Finance Minister claims there is now a greater proportion of "hereditary" politicians in the Oireachtas than there are hereditary peers in the House of Lords.

Peter Sweetman, who turned down the chance to stand for office when his father, Gerard, died in a road traffic accident in 1970, made the claim last week.

At least 45 TDs and senators have a family member who also served in the Dail or Seanad. In addition to these, many sitting senators gave their local authority seats to family members when they were appointed to the upper house two years ago.

Of the 763 seats in Britain's House of Lords, 88 are held by hereditary peers, the dukes, earls, viscounts and barons who inherited their seats because of family lineage.

However, Ireland's political dynasties occupy a greater proportion of seats in the Oireachtas than hereditary peers do in the House of Lords.

People get their chance to vote in democratic elections for the candidates they want to vote for. Some of these people are relations of former or retiring TDs. Big deal. That’s democracy.