Favourite Irish Churches

Given the lockdown, there has been little opportunity to visit the many beautiful churches and places of christian worship in Ireland. I thought it might a nice idea to share pictures of churches we like, to give us places to visit when all this is over.

One I particularly like is the Dominican 'Black Abbey' in Kilkenny city. It has a wonderful history, one of the first Dominican houses, it went on to play an important role during the all too short lived Catholic confederation, and was one of the relatively few confiscated buildings that was restored to catholic worship after the penal days.

The "Rosary window", the gable window that can be seen below, is the largest stained glass window in Ireland, and is really spectacular, as are other details of the church including a statue depicting the Trinity, which lay hidden for centuries within a niche in the wall (presumably hidden to avoid the attentions of the Cromwellians and the like)



The interior of the church is somewhat let down by the 'modern' stained glass window behind the altar, it really is not in keeping with the rest of the church.

Below is a detail from the Rosary Window, which a friend sent to me:

Thinkingaboutit

Liturgical Arts journal has a piece of St Kevin's chuch

St Kevin's church, Harrington Street, which fittingly is in the old civil parish of the name (that now ruined church is behind the former Kevin's St DIT unroofed only in the 1900s when it by then more a chapel of ease with the main Anglican church also on Harrington Street) has been very extensively restored. As can be seen a portion of the original stencilling of the interior of this GG Ashlin (an understudy of Pugin, but later fell out with him) project, has been restored, the altar moved back, and it is hoped that more of the fine stencilling and paint can be reinstated. However, the stone used is quite soft, and a portion came loose above the main doorway. This has been the location for the past few years of the Dublin Latin Mass chaplaincy, and is now an Oratory in formation. The Oratory of St Philip Neri make it a priority to offer both the traditional and new Mass to a high standard. Like all Dublin diocesan churches, only private prayer is allowed. Not even Exposition is allowed.

There are also two Mass locations, chapels, which I will not identify, lest it feed that bane of Ireland, the informer, where Mass is offered, plus Communion afterwards.

Not even during Penal Laws were Catholics normally prevented from hearing Mass in their chapels. Their chapel could not be identified as a church, there could have no bell tower, the presence of the priest was legally uncertain, as his foreign education was not legal, but Mass itself was only rarely subject to fines, which is the case now. Some very large chapels were built, including one on the site of the former Apollo House. Thankfully the fine was imposed on a Cavan priest, and no Cavan man will willingly give 500 Euro to anyone.

Thanks for those pictures, I will make it my business to visit there when next in Dublin, it is not far from my office. Usually I would pop into Newman University Church off St Stephen's Green a few times a week during my workday.

I've never been to a latin mass, so that would be something interesting too.



It is great to see the restoration in your photos, too many churches were destroyed after Vatican 2, but in many instances it has been discovered that some of the original decoration remains and can be restored. This was the case in St. Peters in Drogheda.

smacl

From around the world rather than just Ireland, but the following related thread may be of interest. An old favourite of mine that is Irish below;

It is a striking feature of pre-norman ecclesiastical stone architecture that natural light was clearly not a priority. One can imagine Mass in such buildings, in the near dark, as having a heightened mystical aspect to it.

looksee

I absolutely love Gallarus Oratory - it is an exquisite architectural structure. How can it have stood so long without a stone out of place, and how does it fit so perfectly into the landscape? The flawlessness of its lines and construction seems to reflect the dedication and yearning of the builder to represent with dry stone walling a spiritual perfection.

looksee

looksee wrote: »

I absolutely love Gallarus Oratory - it is an exquisite architectural structure. How can it have stood so long without a stone out of place, and how does it fit so perfectly into the landscape? The flawlessness of its lines and construction seems to reflect the dedication and yearning of the builder to represent with dry stone walling a spiritual perfection.

The prevailing thought is that the building is later than its appearance would initially suggest, meaning that it was deliberately, and archaically, built in such a manner despite the existence and widespread use of more advanced methods. This of course, underlines your point.

looksee

I had the impression that prevailing thought was that no-one had any real idea of how old it was, or even what its precise purpose was. There was I believe some slight evidence of well hidden mortar but that does not prove a lot. There is no certainty about any of the beehive huts either, only theories. To me it appears to have been built with passion, but maybe they were just very skilled and competitive craftsmen.

looksee

looksee wrote: »

I had the impression that prevailing thought was that no-one had any real idea of how old it was, or even what its precise purpose was. There was I believe some slight evidence of well hidden mortar but that does not prove a lot. There is no certainty about any of the beehive huts either, only theories. To me it appears to have been built with passion, but maybe they were just very skilled and competitive craftsmen.

The rounded window is quite suggestive also, of a later date. But what's a few hundred years when we are talking about such a long time ago The use of mortar at all suggests a later date, but I am reluctant (unlike some archaeologists) to rely on the presence of mortar, even when carbon dated, for a precise age. But coupled with the rounded window, I would suggest it is roughly from around the 12th century (perhaps a century or so before, give or take) rather than four, five or even six centuries earlier, as suggested by some.

A later date does not make it any less important or amazing, in fact I would personally think it makes it more so. I'm sure it was built with passion, the fact that they may have used "old fashioned" and more difficult building methods when they had more modern and easier ways to do things certainly suggests a particularly meaningful building, which had a wider importance and meaning beyond its function, in the minds of those who built it.

But you are right, we will never know for sure, precisely, how old it is or how exactly it was used. But that's what makes talking about these things so interesting and fun

Are there any other structures that you are particularly fond of? If we keep this up we will have a great repository

Thinkingaboutit

Keyla Large Waffle wrote: »

Thanks for those pictures, I will make it my business to visit there when next in Dublin, it is not far from my office. Usually I would pop into Newman University Church off St Stephen's Green a few times a week during my workday.

I've never been to a latin mass, so that would be something interesting too.



It is great to see the restoration in your photos, too many churches were destroyed after Vatican 2, but in many instances it has been discovered that some of the original decoration remains and can be restored. This was the case in St. Peters in Drogheda.

University church was designed by a Professor of Art History. Fr Deighan of St Kevin's church also offered a tradition Mass there to mark Newman's canonisation.

Often what seems to have happened was that elaborate stencilled wall painting was just painted over in magnolia, like it was ordered at V2, or perhaps there was not the money to redo it. One church even removed altar rails recently, despite rails capturing the very ancient sense of the sanctuary which goes back to the Temple. The cult of ugliness still has a hold among Irish priests.

At least a steady number of churches are beginning to restore what was lost. V2 did not mandate ugliness.

You'd like a traditional Mass. Between the Cavan priest and two others I won't name, most (two out of three) secret public Masses are Latin.

Manach

UCC Honan chapel both has a grand yet homely style that make it a lovely Church.

Thinkingaboutit

Manach wrote: »

UCC Honan chapel both has a grand yet homely style that make it a lovely Church.

The Celtic Romanesque style is a marvel, a form with genuine historical roots. The Harry Clarke windows found in the Honan chapel, and there, really make the place a feast for the eyes, a treat.

Peregrinus

Thinkingaboutit wrote: »

One cryptic issue is how small pre-norman Irish churches were. It was not a lack of belief or resources, or were liturgies particularly different, just a localised form of the Latin Rite like in most of Europe. Yet these interiors were so small. Perhaps the custom was only to shelter the liturgical actions

Take this interior of Cormac's chapel:

. . .

It seems very small, and with wall painting, rood screen and other features in place, it would have seemed smaller. Now a royal or episcopal chapel might be a poor example, but go to Glendalough, and all the building seem similarly petite.

Well, remember, the pre-Norman church was basically monastic, and most of the churches that survive may have been built with a monastic community, not a gathered parish, as the intended users.

So far as I know, we don't really know very much about the, um, sacramental service offered to the laity. It may have been that masses for the general public were mostly celebrated in larger but comparatively unimportant buildings constructed away from the monasteries but in or near to settlements, which did not have the same prestige, were not as well-built, and have not survived. Or, it may have been that the laity just didn't go to mass very much, and weren't expected to, and therefore there was little need for large churches.

There are references in the annals to two to three hundred people dying in the burning of churches. Perhaps there were larger wooden churches.

It is also important to remember that the population was far smaller than now. Perhaps the main form of worship for those who did not live at or near a monastery was based on annual pilgrimages (Easter perhaps), along with more regular ones to local sites, as well as personal devotions. Daily Mass was probably not a feature for most!

Peregrinus

Most of towns were Viking settlements, and so (until quite late on) more pagan than Christian. The Christian Gaels were not urbanised; they mostly lived in low-density agricultural settlements. Even where residences were grouped together they weren't a "village", as we would understand it. In most of the country there was no network of dioceses and parishes and, therefore, no parish churches. Sacramental ministry to the laity was provided by monks from monasteries but this wasn't the main function, or the main focus, of the monasteries, so my guess would be that it was a low priority and the service was maybe patchy.

Thinkingaboutit

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, remember, the pre-Norman church was basically monastic, and most of the churches that survive may have been built with a monastic community, not a gathered parish, as the intended users.

So far as I know, we don't really know very much about the, um, sacramental service offered to the laity. It may have been that masses for the general public were mostly celebrated in larger but comparatively unimportant buildings constructed away from the monasteries but in or near to settlements, which did not have the same prestige, were not as well-built, and have not survived. Or, it may have been that the laity just didn't go to mass very much, and weren't expected to, and therefore there was little need for large churches.

Perhaps, but the bishops were Abbots, and a monastery in ancient Ireland was the closest thing to a city with regular markets, every sort of craftman. Even parochial churches in later medieval Dublin or other Europe cities were usually very small, but there were many of them. I recall reading that perhaps the idea was that just the altar, priests and servers might be sheltered with others outside. Also small churches, as evidenced at least by placenames, were quite probably provided in localities on the basis of a local kin group with a limited connection to the diocesan monastery. Also monastic centres like Glendalough had a great extent of dependent small monasteries. Perhaps monasteries great and small, dependent chapels, and chapels for kin groups served most people. Also everything a priest needs for Mass from Missal to altar stone can fit into a suitcase. Perhaps itinerant priests served others still.

Spanish Eyes

Gougane Barra. Tiny but beautifully formed church in spectacular surroundings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOMJhL5-zKs

Peregrinus

Thinkingaboutit wrote: »

Perhaps, but the bishops were Abbot, and a monastery in ancient Ireland was the closest thing to a city with regular markets, every sort of craftman. Even parochial churches in later medieval Dublin or other Europe cities were usually very small, but there were many of them. I recall reading that perhaps the idea was that just the altar, priests and servers might be sheltered with others outside. Also small churches, as evidenced at least by placenames, were quite probably provided in localities on the basis of a local kin group with a limited connection to the diocesan monastery. Also monastic centres like Glendalough had a great extent of dependent small monasteries. Perhaps monasteries great and small, dependent chapels, and chapels for kin groups served most people. Also everything a priest needs for Mass from Missal to altar stone can fit into a suitcase. Perhaps itinerant priests served others still.

I agree with all this except that, nitpick, abbots were mostly not bishops. At larger monasteries there might be a bishop, but he would be someone different from (and subordinate to) the abbott. Bishops were needed for sacramental reasons, but they didn't wield the kind of authority or jurisdiction in the Celtic church that they did in the Latin church.

Most likely the main reason why there aren't many surviving large churches from the period is that there weren't any large, Christian settlements. The Christian population was a rural one, and lived in numerous, scattered, small, low-density settlements, served very much in the way you outline. So, not much call for large buildings to accommodate large congregations.

But the other factor that I think is largely unknown is that we don't know how regular the laity typically were in mass attendance, or how much importance was attached to this. Even the Celtic monastic tradition was very individualised compared to the mainstream European one - lots of emphasis on hermits, solitary prayer, etc; comparatively less on the common life. And - this is speculative, of course - it may well be that similar attitudes characterised thinking about the spiritual lives of the laity; regular eucharistic gathering may not have been seen as so central to their spiritual lives as it came to be later.

Ardmore is on my list to visit, the round tower there is arguably the pinnacle of this particularly Irish form of ecclesiastical architecture. The string courses really add to it.


Image from the link below:
http://irisharchaeology.ie/2015/04/st-declans-monastery-ardmore-co-waterford/

ssshhh123

A clossed one

looksee

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Wexford town is a lovely place to visit, and it has two very interesting "twin" churches. Both are largely the same, but if you can only get to one the Church of the Assumption has not only a Harry Clarke window, but a Mass rock outside. Looking forward to visiting again.



https://wexfordparish.com/twin-churches/

Thinkingaboutit

I quite like the SSPX chapel, Corpus Christi, in Athlone. It is was originally an Anglican church which was sold the SSPX. This small church represents a lot of building of a simpler type. The SSPX provided a fine high altar - Anglo-Catholicism is not a thing here.



Buildings of Ireland has a nice little piece on this Ecclesiastical Commissioners (successors to the Board of First Fruits, but the simple gothic was the same).

Thinkingaboutit

Keyla Large Waffle wrote: »

Very nice church, I wonder if there are many COI churches/sites returned to Catholic use? Sadly the COI have sold many sites (some very ancient and with graveyards attached) for people to use for very improper purposes including domestic homes (original buyers may be nice, but access cannot be guaranteed into the future) and even restaurants.

I saw that today, very disappointing, not least the Garda disrespectfully stomping around the sanctuary.

The SSPX chapels in Cork, Dublin and Athlone are all former Church of Ireland churches. The Dublin chapel, St Johns' was a chapel of ease to Monkstown parish church and the de Vesci family could go straight from their fine neo-gothic home to the church. It is for sale, I believe, a mere one million Euro. Buildings of Ireland have information on the Cork chapel. It is much better than ruination (far too many places which at times have origins before the Normans) or insensitive transformation. I think the diocesan Catholic Church would be highly reluctant ever to sell to the SSPX, although only the Athlone church (the oldest) was a direct sale Church of Ireland-SSPX sale.

smacl

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The Church of Our Lady of Clonfert is worth visiting, particularly this month, as it is home to a wonderful medieval statue of Mary and Christ, one of the very few to have survived the 'reformation' and penal times in Ireland.

Interesting piece on the modern pilgrimage to the church and statue, with plenty of pictures of both, it's worth a look: https://pilgrimagemedievalireland.com/tag/our-lady-of-clonfert/

Ramasun

My devout Catholic grand Aunt used break her journey to Dublin with a quick pray in what she didn't realise was a Protestant chapel. 10 years and no one had the heart to tell her.

Ramasun

Ramasun wrote: »

My devout Catholic grand Aunt used break her journey to Dublin with a quick pray in what she didn't realise was a Protestant chapel. 10 years and no one had the heart to tell her.

Which one was it? There are some very nice ones.

Thinkingaboutit

Ramasun wrote: »

My devout Catholic grand Aunt used break her journey to Dublin with a quick pray in what she didn't realise was a Protestant chapel. 10 years and no one had the heart to tell her.

I thought normally the custom was to close at times other than for Divine Service or Evensong or other liturgical happenings, although the one is Baltinglass seems to be open often. I suppose if prayer is said in a reverent and collected manner, the location might matter less. Some CoI churches, at least the site, if not the First Fruits / Ecclesiastical Commissioners gothic structure were pre-reformation, so perhaps one could fancy tiny snatches of the Latin of the Sarum Rite echo down the ages.

Thinkingaboutit

Thinkingaboutit wrote: »

I thought normally the custom was to close at times other than for Divine Service or Evensong or other liturgical happenings, although the one is Baltinglass seems to be open often. I suppose if prayer is said in a reverent and collected manner, the location might matter less. Some CoI churches, at least the site, if not the First Fruits / Ecclesiastical Commissioners gothic structure were pre-reformation, so perhaps one could fancy tiny snatches of the Latin of the Sarum Rite echo down the ages.

Yes, that seems to be the case in most places. The main exception is those formerly catholic churches which have historic merit. You can still go into those - for a fee of course.

looksee

Keyla Large Waffle wrote: »

Yes, that seems to be the case in most places. The main exception is those formerly catholic churches which have historic merit. You can still go into those - for a fee of course.

There is often a small fee for admission as an 'attraction'; admission for prayer etc is always free. The fee is to cover staff acting as tourist guides and/or for insurance.

looksee

looksee wrote: »

There is often a small fee for admission as an 'attraction'; admission for prayer etc is always free. The fee is to cover staff acting as tourist guides and/or for insurance.

Not always quite as easy as that, for those who are not protestants. From personal experience, one can expect interrogation about their religion, and 'encouragement' to come back when services are being held.