Cross-border review of rail network officially launched

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120907245#Comment_120907245

The Program for Government already states a spend of 2:1 in favour of PT over roads. We still need roads to be built. The problem is that the Greens don't want any road building.

And as other have said commuter rail, which it seems isn't included in this report, is far more important to getting people out of cars than intercity.

ohographite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120907368#Comment_120907368

I didn't say that road building needs to stop. I also knew that the Program for Government says that public transport should get twice as much investment as roads, but I think that is the least the government should be doing, because there is a climate emergency. If I had to pick just one of either investment in commuter rail or investment in intercity and regional rail, I would choose commuter rail because I agree that it would take more cars off the road, but I think that there should be investment in both.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120907368#Comment_120907368

The problem is that the Greens don't want any road building.

Not necessarily true. There are projects which should not be built because there are better options but there are others which should be built.

hans aus dtschl

There of course should be investment in both commuter and intercity. The problem is that this latest rail plan is sort of ignoring the fact that some of the biggest problems with the intercity network are the integration into it (bus, train, tram, bike). I am 100% in favour of electrification of the intercity network, but even then don't see how that's a comparable priority to actually getting people onto the intercity network. Getting bums on seats allows a lot more emissions reductions and surely comes as a much higher priority.

I guess what I'm saying is that investing in the commuter network IS fundamentally an investment in the intercity network.

Obviously we need better frequency, speed and hours of service on the intercity network, but do we really need to electrify most lines at a similar priority? I'm not a rail expert so I could be totally wrong but I see that as being a reasonably "small" gain. Similarly expanding to some of the smaller towns mentioned, or freight: these seem like small gains for big money.

Something not mentioned much in the report is the development of the node-points of the network. They just sub all that out to "others" too. For Kent Station, the intercity trains should surely be moved East to the straight section of the line, removing the curve and removing intercity trains from the constrained two tracks. There should be coaches and city buses properly integrated, and the car parks should all move to the East of the site. This is all "out of scope" too.

TLDR: what I'm saying is that most of the bits that would appear to be be most helpful to intercity rail seem to be "outside scope".

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120907245#Comment_120907245

Attitudes like "roads bad, rail good". I agree with the "rail good" bit, subject to proper project evaluation. But the seemingly unqualified negative attitude to roads is political suicide.

serfboard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120906503#Comment_120906503

The Green Party had 12 TDs elected at the last election. Apart from the Dublin constituencies (Bay South, Central, Fingal, Rathdown, West and Dun Laoghaire) and Wicklow, their TDs were elected in Carlow-Kilkenny, Waterford and Limerick City. So they were already "wiped out" in 20 counties at the last election. They're not in the slightest bit bothered if the N17 (Curry to Collooney) or the M20 don't get built since they don't get any votes from the affected areas.

ohographite

Again, I never said that road investment should stop. I only said that for the time being, railway investment that helps stop the climate crisis should be made more.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120908069#Comment_120908069

And that's the plan with Metrolink and DART+. Everything mentioned in this review is at least a decade away.

We have ready to go road projects being held up now by Ryan. And that's straight from the head of TII. Projects that will remove cars from towns, reduce congestion and reduce accidents.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120907980#Comment_120907980

That's mainly true, but the M20 is in Limerick and Brian Leddins seat will be in a lot of danger come the next GE. There's also the fact that the Greens are regularly polling at 3-4% now compared to the 7% the got at the last GE. It's not just rural roads that are going to affect them at the next GE.

timmyntc

Arent there enough threads to moan about the greens already?

Ireland trains

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120907866#Comment_120907866

I think that the attitude in Ireland for decades has been the opposite of what you’re describing. While certain projects such as the M20 are likely needed, many such as the GCRR are a colossal waste of money. It’s probably unfair to call negative attitudes to roads “unqualified” considering the huge damage cars do to our health through emmissions, tyre pollution and crashes.

bk

I've noticed over the years that certain "rail fans" keep trotting out the line that we need to build certain rail lines to fight the "climate crisis".

As if we should ignore if the project actually makes sense, anyone will actually use it, if it actually has a realistic Cost Benefit Analysis and how much GHE it will actually save and if the same investment elsewhere might not have even greater benefits.

Don't get me wrong, we should absolutely invest in rail, but the "climate crisis" doesn't justify every crazy rail idea someone comes up with!

Look at this report, even if we spend the 36 Billion on this project. 94% of journeys will still be by car and 90% of freight will still be by road. We will continue to need roads and we will need to convert all those cars and trucks to EV.

That is the simple unfortunate reality of our extremely rural and dispersed population.

I'm not saying we shouldn't invest in intercity, but I continue to believe that the best invesment in rail we can make is in commuter rail, DART, Metro, Luas. Getting people into and around our cities. That is where the most demand is and that is where you can get the most people out of their cars.

Ronald Binge Redux

The mass rail closures in Northern Ireland that caused the 'rail gap' were political, not economic decisions. Any implementation of any part of this plan will be a political one as well.

ohographite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120909137#Comment_120909137

In all fairness, I clearly stated in a previous post that the review may be recommending some projects that would not help to stop the climate crisis, and that I did not feel strongly about any such projects.

ohographite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120908310#Comment_120908310

Good. I think that's the right approach, and I just hope it is sustained at least until transport in Ireland is sustainable.

pigtown

So now that the review is published has there been any indication of what the next step is? Is it just a case of let Irish make the case for each project as the budgets are prepared?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120911862#Comment_120911862

It will sit on a shelf and nothing will happen.

That isn’t entirely true, I suspect some projects from it will happen, some will have to at least partly with fleet renewals. But the plan in entirety certainly won’t happen and frankly I’d be pleasantly surprised if 50% happens.

Id say IR will gradually and quietly put forward individual projects to government over the years.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120911862#Comment_120911862

I should have thought that would be obvious: they will have an assessment of the review, followed by a strategic implementation plan, followed by a review of the initial review as it will then be 8 years out of date, followed by a consultants' report on individual project priorities, followed by a steering committee to oversee implementation, followed by a strategic re-assessment, followed by ......zzzzz

And we will not have got to the process of getting a Rail Order, or decisions by the relevant planning authority, or judicial review.

😎

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120911862#Comment_120911862

2 or 3 of the most critical parts will be built in 2050 and that's it. 👌

Either that or we'll see a fundamental shift in the way the country is run. But most likely the former.

Geuze

Can anybody tell me how many IE capital infrastructure projects are actually under construction today?

I have a feeling the answer is none, but I want to be wrong.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120909422#Comment_120909422

There is no doubt that there was a "political" element. However, the Stormont government were profoundly anti rail, they closed and lifted the lines to Dungannon, Armagh, Banbridge and Comber which could all have used for Belfast commuter traffic and these lines would not have been mainly used by Taigs.

Some of this is complete crayons, for instance there is no bus from Cavan to Mullingar. But some projects need to be done and longer term planning is needed for this. In relation to NI, they need to start quadrupling the line to Howth Junction and from Lisburn. Not necessarily easy, but even a partial job would speed up trains.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120912811#Comment_120912811

Foynes line. Upgrade of Little Island station to modern standards. That's about it. New control centre is still in commissioning; Cork line LC closures went to tender a few months ago but I don't believe has begun.

There are multiple things awaiting Railway Orders; and this is likely to be the delay factor for everything going forward until it's fixed. Cork Commuter Upgrade has one out, DART+ has two.

Pete_Cavan

The capital projects for the rest of this decade are already set; DART+, Cork commuter services, Cork line Level Crossings, and new platform at Oranmore (all subject to planning approval and subsequent funding allocation, of course). The N/M20 Cork - Limerick project may also result in improvements between those cities, but that could easily slip into the next decade. If all is delivered, and when coupled with extensive new rolling stock, it will actually have been a fairly productive decade from a rail pov (and it wont have required a huge, island-wide report, imagine that).

By the end of the decade, I expect this report will have been largely forgotten about. Some will insist on the relevance of the report and it will be brought up now and then to keep the pipedreams of WRC phase 2 and the South Wexford reopenings alive. It will have no bearing on the next wave of projects, they will have to pass a very different, and more stringent, set of assessments. An assessment on the line north of Connolly is to begin soon, that will no doubt be influential. DART+ Tunnel will need to be looked at seriously as well.

After that, I expect capacity increases west of Hazelhatch, double-tracking and additional stations on approach to Galway and double-tracking between Portarlington and Athlone will be priorities. South of Greystones also needs something done but hard to see what realistically can happen. I wouldn't be surprised if the Foynes reopening is a huge disappointment in terms of the traffic it carries v its cost and that kills off any potential reopenings for a long time.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120912811#Comment_120912811

Oranmore passing loop is under construction and due to open in 2024

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120913912#Comment_120913912

Are you sure?

I have seen some prep work, yes.

But the planning application has not been submitted.

If PP has not been received, how can a contractor be appointed?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120914188#Comment_120914188

I was going off this report from back when the contracts were signed, that work was to begin shortly after

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/129507/work-on-oranmore-train-loop-to-commence-in-autumn

Hibernicis

Firmly contradicted by this article dated 23 May 2022 which states "Iarnród Éireann has today signed a contract with RPS Group for completion of concept, feasibility, option selection, preliminary design and planning" (no mention of construction)

https://galwaybayfm.ie/galway-bay-fm-news-desk/listen-iarnrod-eireann-signs-contract-for-significant-capacity-increase-at-oranmore-train-station/

and this article dated 23 May 2022 which states "Iarnród Éireann has signed a contract with RPS Group to design and plan the expansion. Subject to planning permission, it's envisaged that the works at Oranmore would be completed by mid 2025" (again no mention of construction)

https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2022/0523/1300660-galway-train-service/

Geuze

"Iarnród Éireann has today signed a contract with RPS Group for completion of concept, feasibility, option selection, preliminary design and planning."

IE need outside advisers/designers to lay 1km of track?

God Help Us.

What do their engineers do?

Unless RPS are being hired to design re-doubling to Athenry?

ArcadiaJunction

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120918796#Comment_120918796

Rail companies all over the world do this now. Private contractors generally get the projects done faster and they have access to expertise and certain equipment that the rail operators would have to purchase if they did it in house.

Geuze

RPS are not being hoired to lay the track.

They are being hired to do the option selection (?), design, planning.