Cross-border review of rail network officially launched

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120923501#Comment_120923501

IÉ basically had no investment for a decade or more, so their engineering team is likely very stretched now that they have multiple simultaneous projects. It would be great if they had more engineers and projects but the political cycle has really impacted infrastructure spending. I keep moaning on about it but it would be great if we could decouple transport infrastructure from the political cycle.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120924227#Comment_120924227

Very good point. It reminds me of the problem with recent huge cost over-runs in UK mainline electrification (GWR): the reason seems to be that the UK has large dollops of electrification (ECML and WCML) with littlle or nothing in between, so people were not retained and expertise was lost.

One lesson is that whatever emerges from the Strategic Review, there should be a flexible long-term programme of investment with a steady level of activity, not huge unsustainable bursts of activity.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120921689#Comment_120921689

This isn't unique to rail, it is common across many industries.

I'll give an example I'm familiar with. Telecoms. Eir, Siro/Vodafone, Virgin Media and NBI are all currently on a mad build out of their FTTH networks across the country. However what most people might not realise that the actual work of laying the fibre and connecting homes is largely being done by one company KN Circet. They are the ones with the relevant equipment and experience. Engineers at KN could be doing installs in one area for OpenEir and then a month later doing similar installs for Siro nearby!

The above companies do have some staff for emergencies and day to day maintenance, but they don't have enough staff for the massive rollouts like this.

You could also point to our motorway network, which was largely built by foreign companies with expertise in building Motorways across Europe, something which we larelgy don't have expertise with here and which they didn't an excellent job on.

Given how little heavy rail we have built in the past 20 years, I could see IR being quiet stretched with major projects like DART+ and looking for outside help from companies who do these sort of projects across Europe.

road_high

Dual tracking the line from Kildare to Kilkenny will that require much room? Is there room there already? I think as far as Carlow there is and that may have been dual track. As it is more passing loops would be a great help

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120926666#Comment_120926666

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120926645#Comment_120926645

Cherryville Jcn to Athy was double track until about 1918. From what I can see, bridges on the rest of the line were wide enough for two tracks. At most the railway would need an extra 3m or so land take on one side.

bk: I realise that of course a specialist construction company would do the actual building of a second track or a new line, stc. My original gripe about consultants was engaging them to do basic design work on a simple project. The first thing they would probably have to do is consult with Irish Rail engineers on some detailed matters!

bk

"I realise that of course a specialist construction company would do the actual building of a second track or a new line, stc. My original gripe about consultants was engaging them to do basic design work on a simple project. The first thing they would probably have to do is consult with Irish Rail engineers on some detailed matters!"

The question would be how many engineers does IR have? Would they not all be already busy working on the Dart+ scheme and Cork Commuter?

BTW getting outside consultants to do basic design work is also quiet common across industries. For instance most of the design work for Eir's rollout of their VDSL network was done by a foreign company. It is often the case that the enginneers from the company lead the project while the external consultants do the bulk of the actual work.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120926969#Comment_120926969

You are assuming that IÉ have directly employed engineers who can design the project, which may not be the case. IÉ are mostly now a rail operator but retain certain other functions also. My understanding is that planning and design of the heavy rail network is intended to one day be transferred to the NTA (similar to the way ESB was split into Networks and a commercial supplier) but that isn't practical at present.

In any case, as a commercial semi-state company, CIE probably don't see the value in having engineers on the books who they can't easily get rid of later. They'd find it difficult to get good/retain engineers against the large multi-national private consultants. Also, a lot of state companies just prefer to have design done under someone else's PI insurance.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120929664#Comment_120929664

Thanks: but I'm alarmed that the NTA should be in on the act. It should really be a matter for Transport Infrastructure Ireland (TII)

goingnowhere

Irish Rail has a new works department which manages all large scale new projects. There are 12 'major' new projects at one stage or another currently (DART+ West, South West, Coastal, Northern, Fleet then Foynes, Limerick - Limerick Junc, Cork Suburban and Cork line level crossings, ETCS L1, GSM-R, NTCC)

The planning and design is always contracted out to consultancy firms.

The actual civil works are contacted out and the track laying and signalling installation is handled in house (though some of that is subcontracted). All are supervised by Irish Rail engineers.

The loop at Oranmore looks like resources are tied up on all the other projects already as this is a simple loop + station job.

Geuze

Thanks for that very helpful info.

5x DART projects

6 = Foynes line

7 = Limerick to LJ - is this more than doubling, does it involved removing LC? Or providing passive provision for future elec?

8 = Cork suburban - initially, this involves the doubling of Glouthane to Midleton

9 = Cork line LC

10 = ETCS L1 - I would like to know more about this

11 = GSM - R???

12 = NTCC, I heard about this, I think it is nearly finished

L1011

ETCS = European Train Control System, GSM-R = GSM (as in the mobile phone standard) - Rail. Basically modern signalling, train location and train comms systems to replace the hodgepodge of stuff we have dating back to the days of the GNR in some places.

You can see the lineside aerials in a few places, particularly in the cuttings around Glasnevin where they need to aim aerials down each cutting at bends in the track.

goingnowhere

7 = Limerick to LJ - is this more than doubling, does it involved removing LC? Or providing passive provision for future elec?

This is a simple double track job on an alignment which had two tracks before, I think there is only 1 staffed level crossing so that would be automated as well. Somewhat tied in with Foynes as it is at capacity currently

10 = ETCS L1 - I would like to know more about this

Border to Greystones currently underway. New DART+ fleet will only have ETCS L1 and GSM-R kit so can only operate where it is installed. 22001 is setup for testing the lineside kit. Actual fleet fit out is a fair bit off. Thats 72 million for just Border to Greystones.

11 = GSM-R???

DART already live, rest of country in progress. Once it goes live the entire fleet bar the DART fleet needs retro fitting as will the NIR C3K fleet. Eventually NIR will install GSM-R and ETCS so any train can go anywhere on the island once done which will be valuable.

12 = NTCC, I heard about this, I think it is nearly finished

NTCC building completed, not fitted out at this point, its an empty shell really today. Vendor is on site installing the kit currently. Will be 2025 before going live

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120934350#Comment_120934350

Cork Suburban is also definitely Little Island upgrade and Kent new platform and possibly kent passing loop and new stations.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120935447#Comment_120935447

Yep, I think Dromkeen is the only manned LC between Limerick and Limerick Junction.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120936219#Comment_120936219

Is Killonan still manned? Been a while since I’ve been there

AerLingus747

I went for one of the Engineering posts and I queried whether IRSE membership and training was supported and got a response of "what is that"..

Their engineering team is very small, for the amount of work that is required. But that is the same across the board in Ireland, unless you work for a multinational. The engineering roles in Ireland are usually from a requirements, through to FAT and SAT activities, project management and orchestration of subcontractors, rather than the hands on nitty gritty.

But there are companies in Ireland very much up to the role, they just need outside manpower support:

Civils - Bam, Global Rail Solutions, Mercury etc...

Telecoms - Global Rail again (they are currently doing the GSM-R stuff), Sigma, KTL, Obelisk, KN, Eir, BT etc....

A lot of big comms rollouts are usually directly from vendor, with a handful of contractors to support, then the Irish company do Site acceptance, and support commissioning and regulatory activities.

Either way, country big or small, there is always a ramp up in skillset and production, it's just some countries can hit the ground running better.

I saw VDSL mentioned, I was on that rollout too, and KN along with Sierra had to be pulled for a few months as the Eircom guys were spending their time doing remedial work as they had hired guys, gave them a months training on the cleanest "best case" environment, and sent them on the road. They did more damage to the network and slowed the rollout at one point... but on the opposite side, there were some fantastic on the road engineers and technicians also. There was consultancy from Fujitsu and Alcatel Lucent for the trial FTTC areas, I'm almost certain Nokia were involved at one point too.... but when Huawei were chosen as cab provider, them with consultancy support from BT was the main route.

You have some areas which are always going to be cheaper in the long run if fully installed and tested by vendor, with shadowing from Engineers, such as the new Frequentis 3020 switch going in for IE. You have an option to install independently, partial support, or full support from vendor... IE have full support install, which is expensive as you have a team from Frequentis UK and Austria, but doesn't require expensive contractors or lead time to train your guys up fully (they can learn during the install and SAT also).

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120937440#Comment_120937440

Forgot about that one. Just checked Street View, was still manned 4 years ago.

ricimaki

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120937689#Comment_120937689

Still manned today

Geuze

Manned LC in 2023?

In one of the richest countries in the world.

I see now why some people describe our rail network as "Victorian".

I had a long discussion with a senior local government official about capex projects.

I came away feeling worse. He described the rules/regulations/processes involved: EIS, Natura, Public Spending Code, etc.

We have an over-regulated capex process.

Geuze

How much of an impact would doubling Port-Athlone have on the Mayo/Roscommon line and the Athlone-GY line?

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120943254#Comment_120943254

Given that most trains cross at least one other train between Portarlington and Athlone, doubling would save about 5 minutes at least. More importantly it would eliminate knock-on delays when one train being late causes another to wait at the crossing point. For greater frequency, such as hourly services to Galway, doubling would be essential, even if only to avoid horrendous delays.

The improvement in operational flexibility would be huge, but this is difficult to quantify without first specifying what the desired service frequencies are.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120943254#Comment_120943254

The line (63km) is as quick as 41mins with stops at Clara and Tullamore, or as slow as 58mins. Most journeys are 50mins or less.

Accounting for stopping time at Clara and Tullamore, trains travel up to 105km/h. If trains could travel at 120km/h, a 35min journey time would be achievable. The biggest advantage of double track would be increased frequency without increasing journey times.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120943212#Comment_120943212

We have an over-regulated capex process.

I think if you dig into it, you'd more likely come to the conclusion that the entire breadth of the system is chronically under resourced which is what causes the delays.

Plenty of countries have similar processes and have vastly shorter turnaround times.

Economics101

I see the Irish Times has a letter advocating linking Sligo to the wider world via the re-opening of the WRC North of Claremorris. Typical of IT readers to focus on the most peripheral; and useless projects possible.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/2023/08/08/sligo-and-transport-optionsn/

cgcsb

Should sligo not have a reliable and usable rail link to Dublin first.

Economics101

Should sligo not have a reliable and usable rail link to Dublin first.

Yes it should, and not at the expense of throwing good money away on a journey through Kiltimagh and other major urban centres.

serfboard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120951512#Comment_120951512

Great to see a man from Caherlistrane in Co. Galway be bothered about a train line in Sligo that he will never use.

ArcadiaJunction

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120951512#Comment_120951512

"City of the Tribes" he must have been real proud of that. The population of Sligo is barely 20,000 ffs.

Geuze

I am sorry for repeating myself, but I again say that DUB airport should be a through station on the Dublin to Belfast line, and trains from WD/CK/LK/GY should be able to reach it.

30m+ pax, plus loads of workers.

Vienna plans to increase the number of national and regional trains going to airport:

https://www.railwaygazette.com/infrastructure/%C3%B6bb-confirms-southeastern-link-to-wien-airport/64678.article

bk

You can say it all you want, but it won’t happen in any of our lifetimes.

It would cost billions to tunnel under Dublin, just to get the trains to the airport. There just isn’t that level of demand to get the train to the airport to justify those billions, I can’t see it passing a CBA

“30m+ pax, plus loads of workers.”

Well the workers will already be mostly catered for by Metrolink, most people who work at the airport tend to live in Swords or North Dublin.

Same with the 30m passengers. Most are coming from Dublin, so will take Metrolink. Lots come from Belfast too and are well served by Coach services.

Sure, those come from Cork/Limerick/Galway, but let’s be honest, it isn’t exactly that difficult to get from Hueston to the Airport. Also would it not be better to develop Cork and Shannon airports and encourage folks from those counties to head to use their local airports.