Cross-border review of rail network officially launched

bk

"There are loads of lines in other countries whare electrification has been done and traffic is much less than Dublin-Cork."

Not really, 40% of Europes rail lines aren't electrified.

Typically speaking lines need to be busier to justify electrification. This is reflected in the report with a pretty poor CBA for electrification.

Sure, there are some quieter lines in Europe that are electrified, but that is usually for historic reasons where quieter branch lines are operating as part of a much larger and busier mostly electrified network, where it was just easier to electrify the quieter line then use a mixed fleet.

Having said that, I suspect it will be elctrified regarless, specially if they can get Cork up to every 30 minutes. Though hydrogen powered trains may become an alternative option.

"Nitpicking certain parts of the report is madness. Less than 1% of the proposed spend is on lines such as Letterkenny-Derry, Portadown-Mullingar and is well down the priority list of things we need done. However the purpose of this report wasn't what we should be spending money on in the next 10 years rather than the next 50."

Frankly there was plenty of other nonsense in the report. 6 Billion on a Cross Dublin tunnel for intercity trains for no apparent reason!

Even the electrification and quad tracking of the main intercity lines came in with pretty terrible CBA's.

The report really didn't paint a good picture.

KrisW1001

The only inter city quad-tracking proposed was along the South West Dublin commuter corridor (Hazelhatch to Portarlington), and yes, it was rejected... but because a separate twin-track express alignment for inter-city trains gave greater benefits at lower cost. You say tomato, I say tomato, and there will still be four tracks along the corridor.

There's a problem with Hydrogen, and that is: it's bollocks. Lots of prototypes, no production units. Lots of promises, no deliveries. Hydrogen in transportation is 80% the oil companies trying to muddy the water and 20% wishful thinking. As a fuel source, it has some extraordinary challenges around safety and energy density, but I suppose at least a train is big and heavy enough to accommodate this (unlike HGVs). But burning hydrogen is horribly inefficient - it is worse than petrol, and you get diesel-like levels of Nitrogen Oxides if you try to get around that with forced induction; the genuinely clean alternative, fuel cells, is exorbitantly expensive at the power outputs needed for a train. (Use methanol as your fuel-store and reform it into H2 for a fuel-cell, and you waste energy and produce CO2 into the bargain...)

It turns out that Iarnrod Eireann is already on the hook for guinea-pigging Diesel-Battery-Electric hybrid trains (the fleet already ordered for Dart+ will be one of the first deployments of this system), I don't think we're in the position to be client #1 on another unproven technology.

bk

Hydrogen is already operating in Germany and CalTrain in Califronia put in a massive order to convert all their trains to Hydrogen, first to arrive next year. Hydrogen is really taking off.

Also these trains use fuel cells, they don't burn Hydrogen, so it has zero emissions. BTW I agree that Hydrogen has no place in cars, etc. However it certainly will have a place in trains, aircraft, etc. where batteries won't work.

Of course it is a trade off, hydrogen has higher operating costs then overhead electric, but then you save on the capaital cost of building out OLE, so really it comes down to an economic comparison.

BTW It wouldn't surprise me at all if we end up with a mix of both. OLE on the core lines, with Hydrogen and battery on branch lines.

Consonata

Of course it is a trade off, hydrogen has higher operating costs then overhead electric, but then you save on the capaital cost of building out OLE, so really it comes down to an economic comparison.

Its a relatively unproven technology incomparison OLE. The rolling stock is more expensive even than the diesel electrics which we are trying to get away from! Benefit of electrification being we can get cheaper rolling stock with half the running costs of the current fleet and it sets us up well for the next 100 years rather than gambling on Hydrogen not just being clean coal.

Markcheese

I'm not against electrification, and an increased time table makes it more economic,

I suppose i worry does everything get thrown in together as all or nothing , and then its all too dear and nothing happens ,

bk

I do think it is a bit much to call hydrogen “clean coal”! I’m not denying that it is relatively new and operating costs are more expensive, but let’s not overstate things. Hydrogen is going to play a massively important part in decarbonisation, whether that is operating our electricity grid during low wind periods or being used in the likes and aircraft and ships which are too big for batteries.

Of course, with the exception of the Enterprise, our intercity trains are still relatively young and have at least 20 years left in them, so plenty of time to see how CalTrains, etc. plays out and how the market develops.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121004436#Comment_121004436

https://news.oilandgaswatch.org/post/is-hydrogen-worse-for-the-climate-than-coal-it-all-depends-on-how-its-made#:~:text=%E2%80%9CPerhaps%20surprisingly%2C%20the%20greenhouse%20gas,Cornell%20University%20and%20Mark%20Z.

“Perhaps surprisingly, the greenhouse gas footprint of blue hydrogen is more than 20 percent greater than burning natural gas or coal for heat and some 60 percent greater than burning diesel oil for heat,” professors Robert W. Howarth or Cornell University and Mark Z

One of the bigger problems with it is that it's still heavily reliant on Oil-based production techniques which will prove to extremely expensive in the future. Why mess with it when we could concievably be net producers of clean energy from OffShore wind and not be vulnerable to the fluctuation of Oil.

Consonata

Not really, 40% of Europes rail lines aren't electrified.

Meanwhile, 98% of Irelands lines remain unelectrified. We are well behind even the British who are wasting bn's buying up new diesel rolling stock.

Frankly there was plenty of other nonsense in the report. 6 Billion on a Cross Dublin tunnel for intercity trains for no apparent reason!

I don't disagree that since PPT, an undergound interconnector between Connolly and Heuston makes not much sense, but in fairness pre PPT being reopened and modernised, an underground intercity connector remained integral to the network, and still is in the eyes of IÉ. I would query this, and whether it would not be more appropriate to expand PPT rather than build a new undergound line, but maybe they know something we don't.

Regardless, the stuff that had the worst CBA's also were relatively the cheapest additions to the network, and given the country is after throwing 200m at a motorway in Mayo to shave off 2 min of journey time, there are worse ways this country spends money. If we actually applied this review in full, we would have a relatively robust network of smaller towns which have the potential to grow, rather than building 2+2DC to every crannog in the west of Ireland. That is actually what sustainable development looks like. We complain often and loudly on this forum about how Irelands development patterns mean that rail is nonviable outside the southeast. That is precisely a product of our road planning projects. Roads which we know are spending a small fortune to maintain, and infrastructure expansion in water and broadband which wouldn't have been necessary had we made the decisions in the ARR 20 years ago, rather than underpinning all urban planning around bypasses, and new motorways.

bk

"One of the bigger problems with it is that it's still heavily reliant on Oil-based production techniques which will prove to extremely expensive in the future. Why mess with it when we could concievably be net producers of clean energy from OffShore wind and not be vulnerable to the fluctuation of Oil."

You are quoting Blue Hrodrogen there, Irelands plan is too go all in on Green Hydrogen. Basically use excess offshore wind to generate green hrodrogen. The ESB want to develop the capacity to produce 70TWh of Green hydrogen per year.

"I don't disagree that since PPT, an undergound interconnector between Connolly and Heuston makes not much sense, but in fairness pre PPT being reopened and modernised, an underground intercity connector remained integral to the network, and still is in the eyes of IÉ. I would query this, and whether it would not be more appropriate to expand PPT rather than build a new undergound line, but maybe they know something we don't."

The problem there is that Irish Rail have lost all credibility with their claims for years that the PPT couldn't be used! We now see that it will be heavily used for DART+ So any claim by IR that the PPT couldn't be used for a Intercity would be highly questionable.

Maybe they would be correct this time, but the boy who cried wolf and all that.

I'd like to see a detailed report into the possibilities and different option by the NTA/TII, I don't think I can trust IR on the matter.

"Regardless, the stuff that had the worst CBA's also were relatively the cheapest additions to the network,...."

I hate to say it, but don't keep your hopes up, I'd say there is zero chance then entire 36bn review happens.

However it isn't all bad news, the part of the plan called the "Short term plan" actually had the best CBA (1.2) and is probably the most likely to actually happen. Total cost I think 6 Billion in 2021 money. This short term has the following highlights:

• Electrification of the core network, Dublin to Belfast, Cork, Galway, Limerick and a few other bits.
• Get the core network up to 160km/h running
• Hourly service to Belfast, Cork, Galway and Limerick (I'd like to see Cork do 30 minutes).
• Direct Cork to Limerick service
• A few other bits I've forgotten.

That all sounds quiet reasonable and doable to me. It leaves out some of the crazier mad bits like the Cross Dublin Tunnel, etc.

I suspect this is the part that they realistically think they can get, the rest is a more fantastical stretch.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121004416#Comment_121004416

Elactrification involves thoroughly proven technology, unlike Hydrogen and without the reliance on scarce metals like Lithuim for batteries

There are significant energy losses (c.30%) when electricity is used in producing hydrogen.

The creation of facilities for storiing and distributing hydrogen is a big cost.

Hydrogen has to be stored on trains in very high-pressure spherical tanks (300 Bar or more)

Electric trains a re cheaper to purchase, cheaper to maintain, last longer, have better performance, are more reliable, require no time at termini to recharge batteies

In total, while electrification is a big up-front expense, you could have an initial Dublin-Cork (+plus Cork suburban) phase. The rest can be rolled out over several decades, and the programme adjusted to allow for changing financial circumstances. It not one big gigantic all-or-nothing project.

The strategic Rail report has a lot of somewhat crazy aspirational stuff, but sstrangely misses the biggest strategic issue of all: decarbonising and simultaneously increasing the capacity of the railway system. Electrification is the key to this.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121004701#Comment_121004701

There is a lot of electrification in the report. There should probably be more? But I guess they're hoping to get away with battery stuff on all but the Sligo + Rosslare line. Could definitely be more ambitious for sure, but counting my lucky stars that they are even this aspirational. Besides even if you gutted all the so-called "new" railways, I don't think you could even complete full electrification of the rest of the network from those savings.

road_high

Waterford line also in for electrification and doubling as far as Kilkenny. A busy line with a lot of potential.

loyatemu

am I reading that map correctly that they're proposing building lines to Letterkenny and Cavan that will be single track from day 1?

It's a fantasy but at least it's a modest fantasy...

bk

“Elactrification involves thoroughly proven technology, unlike Hydrogen and without the reliance on scarce metals like Lithuim for batteries”

Lithium isn’t scarce, it is abundant metal. The new generation LFP batteries use all abundant elements.

Also that is a pretty silly argument. Every car, bus and most trucks in Ireland will eventually be converted to EV. The amount of batteries our trains would require would be tiny by comparison.

”There are significant energy losses (c.30%) when electricity is used in producing hydrogen.”

Yes and our electricity grid will be partly powered by it. As in when the wind isn’t blowing our electricity will be generated from hydrogen stores, so even if you are using OLE, it would still partly be coming from less efficient hydrogen anyway.

I suspect we will end up with a mix of technologies. Realistically it will likely be more then a decade before we even start considering intercity electrification given the relatively young age of the fleet.

That gives us plenty of time time to see how these technologies all play out.

Yes will the rail review mentioned OLE, keep in mind it was written in 2021 and technologies have already moved on, in the more recent video with the person from Irish Rail responsible for capital expenditure and new fleet, he even admits that they will likely look at hydrogen trains.

Again I’m not saying one or the other will happen. Just that it is something they will likely look into.

loyatemu

we're never going to electrify even 50% of the whole network. The other lines will more than likely end up as battery or hydrogen. The question is if we're doing that for half the network anyway, is it actually worth electrifying the rest but battery and hydrogen aren't sufficiently proven to make that call. Fortunately we're not likely to be electrifying any intercity lines in the next decade so we have time to see how they perform elsewhere.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121006077#Comment_121006077

There is plenty of Lithium in the ground: the problem may be in mining and processing, plus the problematic dependence on China.

See this: https://www.economist.com/asia/2023/06/20/can-australia-break-chinas-monopoly-on-critical-minerals

The real killer is the energy cost of producing hydrogen, using large amounts of electricity: about 30% lossi in producing hydrogen, a huse cost factor which favours direct electrification.

I have not argued for electrification other than a very long term programme (not a big lumpy project). Maybe in 40 or 50 years time when over 50% of the network is electrified the advantages of going over to a single propulsion system in terms of fleet commonality will become another large factor.

And please don't forget the advantages of trains that are cheaper to acquire, maintain, and run. And also the matter of reliability, performance and energy efficiency in operation.

KrisW1001

I think electrification of the Cork-Dublin main line will happen before 2033. The newest 201 diesels used on this line date from 1995, 28 years ago. The normal working life of a locomotive is 25-30 years, so these do need to be replaced soon, and that replacement is going to have to be electric.

The imminent end-of-life of the 201s is part of the reason why electrification has to happen. Whatever is bought next will be with us for another thirty years, and so it can't be fossil-fuelled.

(The Mk 4 coaches always had a design speed of 200 km/h - they were limited to 160 in normal running by the locomotive, track and signalling)

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121006023#Comment_121006023

it's an odd one alright (the Portadown to Mullingar line), a service that nobody ever asked for and definitely doesn't need. If the reason for the single track is low anticipated frequency due to not many people traveling from Clones to Belfast reqularly. then you might say, why bother then??

The funny thing is there's actual significant daily travel demand from say Cork City to large towns in West Cork but for some reason nothing is proposed there, it's a thoroughly inconsistent fantasy.

bk

"There is plenty of Lithium in the ground: the problem may be in mining and processing, plus the problematic dependence on China."

Please, everything we build uses these materials. All the electronics and transformers in your trains use all sorts of rare earth elements. Hell the computer/phone you are writing this on likely as a Lithium Ion Battery and lots of other minerals.

Again electric trains will be a drop in the ocean compared to all the cars, buses, etc. that will be converted to EV.

Frankly this is a very poor argument.

"The real killer is the energy cost of producing hydrogen, using large amounts of electricity: about 30% lossi in producing hydrogen, a huse cost factor which favours direct electrification."

And again, I repeat our electricity grid come 2050 will be using large amounts of Hydrogen to power it. 21TWH per year.

So it will be relatively much of a muchness if you go Wind -> Hydrogen -> Long Term Storage -> Gas/Hydorgen Turbine (to generate electricity) -> OLE or you go Wind -> Hydrogen -> Train.

"And please don't forget the advantages of trains that are cheaper to acquire, maintain, and run. And also the matter of reliability, performance and energy efficiency in operation"

Again this will all just come down to an economic comparison. Higher upfront capital cost of OLE versus higher train cost + higher operating cost of hydrogen.

In the end, non of us can say for certain which is more affordable. It will require detailed study and study of examples of upcoming Hydrogen operations like CalTrains.

loyatemu Yep I can see us ending up with some sort of tri-mode trains. Basically DC OLE + AC OLE + Hydrogen/Battery

So for instance if doing Dublin to Limerick. Run on DC on the DART+ stretch, switch to AC OLE on the Cork line, switch to hydrogen/battery from Limerick junction.

Of course the Hydrogen/Battery part could also be a Diesel engine, with some flap about using BioDiesel and them being "electric ready"

Anyway, with the exception of the Belfast line, this is all far off in the future.

KrisW1001

It will be interesting to see how CalTrain does with its FLIRT H2s. Having used their Bay Area service in the past, I will say that it can only be an improvement.. The new trains are 120km/h suburban commuter units, though, so the use case isn’t exactly what we’re looking at in Ireland, which would be a little faster (160), and longer distance between stops.

California has always had bit of a grá for Hydrogen - it’s the only place that ever seriously considered H2-fuelled cars, and I think there might be some level of oil lobbying behind that position. CA never really cared much about CO2 or global warming - the state’s primary “environmental” concern is air quality, specifically smog and particulate matter - they already suffer from high PM due to natural causes such as wild fires, so the state has to severely limits PM emissions from man-made sources.

timmyntc

The battery electric trains due in around 2025 for dart+ have a whopper battery only range of 80km. There is no way we are doing intercity runs with battery only trains in future. Overhead electrification will happen.

Even with bigger batteries, the turnaround time for charging up again will impact on frequency of service. Whereas OLE will give the greatest possible frequency upgrades as there is no refueling necessary and all trains benefit from high traction electric motors.

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120999116#Comment_120999116

Always? It might be the iron law of C&T but circumstances change and sometimes dramatically. I strongly doubt the Ireland of 2050 will be *exactly* the same as 2023, and with the same priorities.

KrisW1001

The trains for DART+ were specified with 80 km autonomy - that’s further than the longest distance they are ever expected to run away from overhead power. The longest run on non-electrified line in the study recommendations is about 230 km: Maynooth to Ballina. This is not doable with conventional battery-train technology..

But you should pay attention to the wording used in the document carefully, because they say “decarbonised”, and that has a specific meaning, which is reduced CO2 emissions, not eliminated emissions. The people who did this study estimated that the biggest bang-for-buck in CO2 reduction came by making the busiest parts of the network fully electric for zero CO2, and then dramatically reducing the operating CO2 emissions of the less busy lines.

Hitachi recently shipped a battery electric hybrid train system for Trenitalia in Italy (Case Study – A Blissful Commute Aboard Italy’s Urban Blues | Hitachi Rail). This train can work with OHE or diesel as the primary power source, but it can be switched to solely use battery power for station approach, waiting and departure if no OHE is available. Hitachi estimate the fuel (and thus CO2) saving at 50%, which sounds plausible through regenerative braking on approach, no engine-running at idle, and more efficient acceleration... The Italian-spec trains are listed as “commuter” services, but they’re more of a medium-distance train (<200 km) with a top speed of 160 km/h: the same speed standard chosen by the rail review for secondary lines.

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120996585#Comment_120996585

Re Garret - he may have paid lip service to being a rail enthusiast but when he was in Government he claimed that he would never have approved the Howth - Bray Electrification *when doing the official opening of DART!* and, for whatever reason, did his best to frustrate the development of Luas.

bk

"The battery electric trains due in around 2025 for dart+ have a whopper battery only range of 80km. There is no way we are doing intercity runs with battery only trains in future. Overhead electrification will happen."

No one is saying you'd run on batteries intercity! Hydrogen would be possible though.

There is also the option for bi-mode trains and tri-mode trains. Intercity trains that run on AC/DC OLE on the main line and then could switch to battery for quieter branch lines, depending on the distance.

BTW it is just me saying this, the engineers at IR are looking into all these options.

Kris is correct bi-mode/tri-mode with Diesel is also an option! Run under OLE where available and Diesel everywhere else.

In a funny way it would be a good way of embarrassing the government into paying for full electrification. IR could claim, look we bought electric trains, they run on electricity under the OLE sections, give us more money to complete the network and we could fully electrify.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121007885#Comment_121007885

Whatever about his basic attitude to LUAS, apparently Garret went down to the corner of Dawson St and Nassau St early one morning and measured the radius of the curve, apparently showing that it was too tight to fit a tram. In the long-run he was wrong, thanks to the modular bendy trams of the Alsthom Citadis variety. To be fair, such vehicles did not exist in Garret's day.

Whatever really happened, I love the story.

KrisW1001

It’s not really about embarrassing the government: the rail review had to find a way of achieving carbon reductions in rail transport by 2050, so they had to draw a line at a reasonable aspiration. I think they did that. Honestly, there is no way that the entire existing rail network in this country could be both modernised and fully electrified in 27 years - as it is, there’s ten years plus worth of basic maintenance that has to be caught up on. It’s a big job, and for some lines electrification could not occur until after alignment and other works were done, adding further to the time and costs. Plus, there’s a limited construction resource available for this kind of work, and with every other European country doing the same thing, supply and demand would push those costs up.

But, I would hope official Ireland would finally be cured of its binge-and-starve approach to infrastructure investment, and that electrification would proceed, albeit at a slower rate, beyond the end of the study period. Tri-mode trains are the way to enable this further electrification: the systems offered by the major manufacturers are modular, with the ability to retrofit after purchase, so if the gaps in the electrified network were reduced to less than 50 km, then you could rework the tri-mode trains, replace the diesel with extra battery and move to a battery-electric fleet for partially-electrified lines. Some places may be just too remote (or environmentally sensitive) for OHE lines to be installed, but so long as no area like this is wider than the typical battery range, it won’t matter if it’s never electrified.

D.L.R.

The only sane elements of this report are the new alignments between Dublin and Belfast/Cork, and the various widening schemes.

The rest is cuckoo.

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121008285#Comment_121008285

I think Garret was assuming 5 foot three inches as the gauge!

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121008349#Comment_121008349

I think if that was done everyone would be very happy