Cross-border review of rail network officially launched

marno21

Where I'm from, growth is happening both in urban living (village) and also rural living (countryside). Both have their perks in the eye of prospective homeowners.

One thing I will say is that building of one off houses in the countryside is actually happening and providing actual houses for people instead of much of the stalling happening with more urban developments.

(I don't live in a one off house so I am not being an advocate for it).

brianc89

According to CSO, in 2019:

6.5% of journeys made by public transport (bus and rail).

4.8% by bus only, so only 1.7% by rail. An increase to 10% by rail is a 6-fold increase.

73% of journeys nationally were made by car, not 90% as claimed here.

Assuming a greater degree of bus transport outside of Dublin (LocalLink) plus increasing rail nationally, and increased active travel in towns (Carlow for example) and cities car journeys are on a clear downward trajectory.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-nts/nationaltravelsurvey2019/howwetravelled/

serfboard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121020644#Comment_121020644

Ribbon development did not happen because of the availability of cars. Ribbon development happened because of the corrupt nature of our politics and our planning "system" - a system deliberately designed to be gotten around, so that constituents would be in debt to politicians.

Think of rural politicians who spend a lot of time answering constituents' requests in trying to get planning permissions.

Then think of urban politicians who spend a lot of time answering constituents' requests in trying to block planning permissions.

Consider a country like Germany which is no less interested in cars than we are - after all they build the damn things. And they've built a great motoring infrastructure. However, go to Germany and you will not find ribbon development simply because they wouldn't allow it.

And, by the way, when I talk about politicians getting rural planning permission - remember that it is we, the people, who are asking for that planning permission, and the farmers who are benefitting from selling sites. Let's be honest with ourselves and admit that we really couldn't give a damn about sustainable development.

The Irish are great for talking the talk about the environment and sustainability. When it comes to actually doing anything about it, well, sin scéal eile.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121020884#Comment_121020884

Just to add weight to this, Germans as a nation are extremely fond of cars, and yes dispersed development is extremely rare. As a result, almost every tiny middle-of-nowhere village has facilities, such as swimming pools, playgrounds, playing pitches, etc. They didn't even really call it sustainable development, that's a more modern concept, for them it was just the logical thing to do.

What we're doing still in 2023 is really bad. In my opinion we should be designating plots around each of the local villages, and telling people "you can buy a plot and build whatever house you want here, but you must go through the planning and design etc yourself". What we have right now is a kind of mass-produced house system which doesn't perfectly suit anyone, or else a one-off house build system which is really bad for efficiency.

Edit: probably one for another thread, sorry!

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121020175#Comment_121020175

This sort of attitudes shows absolutely 0 interest in trying to correct for this? Our planning system promotes living in one off houses in the middle of nowhere. We offer cheap rates for connection to utilities, and are happy to toss money at getting fibre to the door of every boreen in west Galway. It's not how we should be modelling our transport funding into the future though? We should be selecting for specific economic corridors and developing them to encourage better density. This isn't even factoring in how ribbon development makes for weaker towns, and more broadly weaker local economies.

Better things are actually possible and to justify the stick of disincentivising folk homesteading in the middle of nowhere (which continues to be the dominant development pattern) we need a lot more carrot (good transport links to areas where there are jobs e.g cheap,reasonably fast rail)

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121020884#Comment_121020884

It's not just a matter of Germany being a good example to follow. Loads of other countries are similar in that so-called "rural" housing is actually grouped into villages, often quite substantial ones. In my opinion, this has much more to do with custom rather than planning: peasants always went out from their village to whatver strip of land they were to work on. Eastern Europe has quite a lot of ribbon development and always had; in Spain you go from compact pueblos to miles of totally open countryside.

Our one-off housing is quite uniquely incompatible with most forms of public transport. One thing we should do is concentrate on feeding the new local link services into main-route bus and also rail services.

ohographite

I have no trouble accepting that the unusually large amount of one off housing in Ireland limits the size of its rail network and the quality of service on it.

However, I really don't think that the current size of the network or the quality of service on it (or at least most of it) is genuinely the best that Ireland should have.

I think that some extensions should be made to the rail network, not necessarily all the extensions recommended by the review. I also think that all of the existing rail network should be kept in operation and improved, some parts of it more than others.

In a nutshell, the railway system I think Ireland should have(at least) would have:

• A passenger railway to every town with 20, 000 people or more (bringing passenger trains back to Navan and trains back to Letterkenny)
• All of the currently existing network still in operation.
• The Dublin to Cork and Dublin to Belfast railways both upgraded to allow trains to run at 200km/h.
• The Dublin to Galway and Dublin to Waterford railways both upgraded to the same frequency and average speed as what Dublin to Cork currently has.
• The rest of the network with at least the speed and frequency that Dublin to Sligo currently has, although most of it, including Dublin to Sligo itself, would be better.

Of course, I think there should also be a lot of improvements to urban rail transport in Dublin and Cork, and that they are more important.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121020175#Comment_121020175

Seriously, the only way to spend more on roads is by spending more on PT. Suggesting that public spending on roads needs to go ahead in spite of the 2:1 commitment show's how out of touch with reality you are that. Our current situation demands that road spending should trail PT spending in that regard.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121024156#Comment_121024156

Where has anyone suggested the 2:1 ratio be ignored?

Economics101

Is there any rational basis for a 2:1 ratio? Proper Cost-Benefit analysis might give you a 1:1 or a 3:1 or any other ratio. It should be the product of serious analysis, not a magic number pulled out of a hat by a few politicians.

The other trouble with the ratio is that in any year different projects will be ready to go and different projects will be under way. As many of these projscts are large enough to significantly affect the ratio, it will fluctuate in the short term. A lot of noise as well as signal.

bk

"However, I really don't think that the current size of the network or the quality of service on it (or at least most of it) is genuinely the best that Ireland should have."

On the size of the network, I'd argue that we are already quiet lucky in this regard and have quiet a strong core network. Every city is linked to Dublin and with the exception of Navan and Swords, every 20k town has rail.

Swords will get Metrolink and I think everyone believes Navan should get rail too (though ironically the rail report parks it!).

I agree completely that our focus should be on making the most out of that core network and developing it further.

The All Ireland rail review actually included an option called the "Short Term plan" which sounds a lot like what you suggest. This plan is costed at 6 Billion and had the best CBA of all the plans at 1.2. It included:

• Electrification of the core network (Cork, Belfast, Galway, Limerick, Waterford).
• 160km/h running across the core network and some regional lines.
• At least hourly service to Cork, Belfast, Galway, Limerick, Waterford.
• Cork to Galway service, more direct Limerick to Cork and Waterford services.
• Various other bits.

The above would require double tracking of the current single tracked sections of the core network.

The report seems to suggest that 200km/h running would require new alignments, tracks and even tunnels. Thus the cost blows out to 16 Billion and the CBA drops to 0.9. So that seems unlikely to me.

Maybe they could just do Cork to Dublin at 200km/h, they don't break it out specifically, but I think that would cost about 1 Billion if I'm reading the report correctly. Most of the cost of 200km/h running seems to come from the Belfast line.

So maybe the Short Term plan + Cork 200km/h at a rough cost of 7 Billion would be reasonable.

bk

"The other trouble with the ratio is that in any year different projects will be ready to go and different projects will be under way. As many of these projscts are large enough to significantly affect the ratio, it will fluctuate in the short term. A lot of noise as well as signal."

Yes, I'd assume the ratio is across multi-years, like the lifetime of the government or 10 years, etc.

While there may not be that much public transport being built at the moment (BusConnects), once Metrolink and DART+ kick off, the ratio will be closer to 10:1. I mean there really aren't all that many major road projects left to do. M20 at about 1 billion is probably the most expensive. Meanwhile Metrolink alone is going to potentially cost 5 to 10 Billion.

The All Island Rail review wants us to spend 36 Billion, though I'd say that is unlikely. But even the more realistic plan is 6 Billion.

Comperatively there just isn't that much new road building to do. For the next 20 years the majority of focus will be rightfully on public transport projects.

BTW I'd say the ratio is more of a recognition of the mistakes made during the Celtic tiger years, where over 10 years we spent 10+ Billion on the Motorway network and relatively little on public transport, two Luas lines for 1 Billion, 500m on some new rail rolling stock, not much else.

Honestly I don't think this ratio will be stuck to at all, public transport spending will far out reach roads. I think the ratio is more a minimum bar designed to stop the greens from cancelling all the road projects. It just means some roads will still get done, but the majority of money will be spent on public transport.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121024298#Comment_121024298

It's an interesting discussion. It's really difficult to say because of the appalling historical attitude of our governing bodies towards sustainable transport. So I suspect what they've done is pick an arbitrary number and timeframe to try and force the luddites to finally do their jobs. What you're saying is obviously correct, but I have zero doubt that NTA/TII/LA's would abuse the hell out of the multi-year "grace period" and then say "we can't get the sustainable ones over the line because of x, y, z and it's not our fault, so we're continuing with roads, roads roads".

bk

The reality though, feck all is being built at the moment. Neither roads nor public transport!

A few relatively minor road projects, but also a few minor rail upgrades going on around the country.

Irish Rail placing orders for the new DART+ rolling stock, plus the 41 new ICR carriages entering service this year are probably some of the biggest things happening at the moment!

If Metrolink, DART+ and the BusConnects infrastructure can get out of ABP and start actually building, that will quickly change.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121024691#Comment_121024691

ABP is really a Black Hole from which nothing escapes, not even light!

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121024839#Comment_121024839

Not even light rail*

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121024269#Comment_121024269

That's literally the result if you prioritise road spending over PT

marno21

By year end, the only projects under construction across road and rail will be a realignment of the N5 in Roscommon and two small bypasses (Listowel and Moycullen)

That’s a far bigger issue than the ratio. There needs to be a focus on delivery and or fighting about whether Team Road or Team Rail is winning some ridiculous battle for funds.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121025251#Comment_121025251

And where exactly is that happening?

Over 10 Billion worth of public transport projects currently progressing through ABP.

bk

Exactly it is depressing how little is getting built at the moment, road or PT. Getting through ABP seems like a major bottleneck for all projects.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121025345#Comment_121025345

And only one road project with ABP, the M6 Galway City Ring Road, the perennial magnet of eco zealots.

The ratio there is well in excess of 10:1.

(DART+ West, DART+ South West, MetroLink, several BusConnects corridors, Glounthane-Midleton, Cork Line level crossings) all with ABP.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121025370#Comment_121025370

ABP was fkd once they had to take on the SHD planning applications without any additional resourcing. It sank under the weight of those.

The entire planning system, from councils, ABP, courts, and various agencies, needs a massive increase in resourcing.

The govt's proposed fix? Make it more difficult to get access to justice under the new planning bill in the hopes that appeals will be reduced.

It won't work and will be struck down by the courts as its contrary to Aarhaus and the EU have already told the govt they'll mount a legal challenge to it too. Daft stuff

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121025299#Comment_121025299

What about Glounthaune-Midleton? Is that not moving now, or is it still caught in design/planning? (I should really know this, sorry!)

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121025299#Comment_121025299

Jesus Wept.

500bn annual GDP, tax revenues very strong, all-time high employment, budget surplus.....................

.......and just three capital projects under construction at end of 2023.

Could that be true? Please tell me it's not.

I am a bit familiar with N59 Moycullen bypass, it's not a big project.

God Help Us.

We have a massive issue on the regulation / planning / supply-side.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121025843#Comment_121025843

Pending a decision from ABP after the oral hearing. I suppose if you are an optimistic sort you could include it as potentially being underway by year end, but I wouldn't be betting on it!

ohographite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121020513#Comment_121020513

It is sensible to increase funding for infrastructure that helps stop the climate crisis, because it's an emergency. The current amount of funds available might not allow investment in intercity and regional rail, if they aren't among the most essential things to be done, but if funds increase, which they should, there's a better chance of such investments.

I would also say that all the operational railways in Ireland, even the more rural ones, definitely have potential to take enough cars off the road to reduce demand for electricity.

pigtown

There might be a better thread to put this but Irish Rail are looking for a project manager for what they've called Project FourNorth, with the job description stating the role will prepare a plan for quad tracking the Connolly to Malahide line in order to get government consent for this.

bk

The problem though is that you can't just assume, you need to do a cost benefit analysis.

Lets say you want to spend 100 million reopening a rural railway line, will that actually have a real environmental benefit or will it mostly just end up carrying empty air, as the demand just isn't there for it. How much green house emissions would you have saved by instead investing the same 100 million in insulating x number of homes to greatly reduce their heating needs. Or 100 million worth of extra wind turbines, etc.

According to the All Ireland Rail review, coaches/bus actually produce less greenhouse emissions then trains!

So for example we spent 100 million reopening the WRC, yet it produces more GHE's then the intercity coaches that run between Limerick and Galway!

So wouldn't it have been better to spend that 100m on insulation or wind turbines or dual tracking the Galway line, etc.?

The point is, not that we shouldn't be investing in rail, but that you have to do detailed CBA's to see if you are getting a real benefit for the money spent and that there aren't even better projects to spend that money on.

cgcsb

Lord help the soul that lands that gig. Most likely be a person from abroad who doesn't know how much of fecal storm that project will be. All we can do is pray for him/her.

Ireland trains

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121042748#Comment_121042748

https://www.irishrail.ie/getmedia/01360b87-5c05-443e-a8aa-54345980d747/IE_CEF_FourNorth_Advert_V1-1_20230829.pdf

Dublin-Cork improvement:

https://www.irishrail.ie/getmedia/39add012-1435-44fd-8e40-d89a680e05f6/IE_CEF_CONNECT_Advert_V1-1_20230829.pdf