Cross-border review of rail network officially launched

Ireland trains

How likely is the new alignment west of Hazelhatch for fast services as opposed to quad tracking the existing alignment?

spacetweek

Good question, and I thought the same about the proposed new alignment from Malahide to Drogheda.

densification

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121058568#Comment_121058568

It's probably cheaper to build a new alignment through fields than to add tracks to the existing line. You don't have to reconstruct stations, disrupt existing services much, and there's less opportunity for nimbyism.

There's also the benefit that it won't have to slow down to 80mph at the Curragh and Portarlington.

KrisW1001

The report authors expect a new alignment rather than widening, and it makes sense to separate intercity from DART services like this... it's not like the bypassed stations would ever become intercity destinations, and it will be cheaper to not have to do the work along an active and busy commuter corridor.

goingnowhere

The proposal is for a new alignment to beyond Portarlington. The Curragh presents some challenges from a planning perspective and geometry, the curve through Portalington is a pain also. For 200kph the current alignment would have at least 3 pinch points the curve south of Newbridge, the double curve on the Curragh and Portarlington

Ireland trains

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121064948#Comment_121064948

Will there really be an need for, even in the medium to long term, having a slow and fast line out that far?

What are the prospects of Sligo services being diverted to Heuston, especially if the line to Navan gets built.

TravelCounty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121075887#Comment_121075887

Probably pure speculation, but with the delivery of DART+ SW to Hazelhatch & Celbridge there could be some scope for more frequent Portlaosie commuter services that go non-stop to Heuston from Hazelhatch (assuming driver recruitment goes well and trains are available from ex Hazelhatch-GCD trains, could be something like a half hourly service). If that is a likely scenario, then suddenly you have many commuter trains that used to be on the slower commuter line now on the faster line from Hazelhatch.

I don't know much about the timetabling of all the intercity services on the Kildare Line, but I presume that could cause delays to happen more frequently for these intercity services.

Again, I don't know if that is something IÉ will be considering, but if it is, I could see how not too long into the future, mixing the commuter and intercity services could cause issues.

KrisW1001

As I understand it, the Portlarlington section of the current line would need some realignment to reach the targeted 200km/h service speed for intercity services, but given that a dedicated pair of intercity tracks is needed further in anyway (and building that in-place could be disruptive and expensive) , making a separate new alignment for the whole lot turned out to be cheaper, less risky and it also allowed for faster running.

cgcsb

A new route should be future proofed for 250kmh

bk

While the Rail Review talks of 200km/h, the impression I got from watching the presentation by the Director of Capital Investments, is that they will be targetting 165km/h across the core network.

I suspect any new rolling stock will be specced for 200km/h but the medium term infrastructure goal is 165km/h.

I think their first priority is to get it all double tracked, electrified and up to at least 165km/h. They can then gradually work towards 200km/h.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121077236#Comment_121077236

Yes, I definitely got that impression as well, there seems to be a large increase in the amount of expenditure needed to get from 160 to 200 km/h.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121077236#Comment_121077236

That 165km/h is an average service speed (route distance divided by travel time) and reaching that speed will require 200km/h running on sections of the core network.

I think the "gradual" part is that some of the core network can do 165km/h now with only minimal change (this is not much faster than the peak speed on Cork-Dublin today), but the parts that would need realignment to get to that level will instead be upgraded to run at 200 km/h...

IE will struggle to purchase EMU intercity trains that are only capable of 200km/h.. trains with maximum speed of around 250km/h are pretty much standard on sub high-speed routes across Europe.. That doesn't mean they'll run that fast in service, but there's headroom there.

Average service speed probably won't ever top 180km/h on the core lines, but on an island this size, that's more than what's needed. (It would be nearly twice the speed of the fastest service running today)

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121077955#Comment_121077955

Galway to Dublin in just over an hour would be a beautiful thing.

road_high

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121075887#Comment_121075887

How would that be done? I’m always quite jealous of Sligo and other lines getting to Connolly. It’s a lot more central than Heuston and you can change to Dart

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121078470#Comment_121078470

If Docklands ever ends up getting relocated to beside spencer dock Luas would you not be better terminating all sligo services and potential Navan services thee rather than blocking up connolly. It might also speed up the sligo train coming in as it wont have to wait to cross over the belfast line to get in to connolly

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121078419#Comment_121078419

The goal per IR and this report seems to be 90 minutes to Galway (same for Belfast, Limerick), with Cork at 2 hours.

Ireland trains

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121079335#Comment_121079335

Don't many Sligo services get refuelled at Connolly though? I suppose the advantage of diverting the trains to Heuston is that they’d get there from Maynooth in little over 10 minuets, while the existing Maynooth line could solely cater for dart, Navan and ppt services.

With regards to journey times on the Cork line, why have many services been slowed to take around 2:36 hours or more, when most were at 2:30 pre covid. Have there not been line improvement works, and wasn’t then new limerick junction platform meant to save a few minuets aswell?

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121080014#Comment_121080014

How can Sligo trains get to Heuston? Take a look at a good rail map: it's impossible without reversing at Glasnevin Junction (sheer madness) or via hundreds of millions of € on some completely new lines.

Re slower times on the Cork line, I think that this is largely due to ongoing track works, which appear to have been substantial: they are trying to deliver 100mph (160 kph) as the more or less standard line speed.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121080063#Comment_121080063

The AIRR proposes a line from Maynooth to the Kildare Line to allow just that.

Economics101

Yes, I know that. And just because it's in the AIRR doesn't mean it makes much sense, when you consider all the other things that need fixing.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121079335#Comment_121079335

I don't see that ever happening unfortunately. Earlier scoping reports had 5 platforms at Spencer Dock Dart but the proposed plans have only 4. With 2 Dart lines terminating there, there won't be space for any intercity services.

DoctorPan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121080112#Comment_121080112

Answers the question of how to reduce the amount deadend running with empty DARTs between Hazlehatch and the new depot.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121080112#Comment_121080112

It makes more sense than Athlone to Portadown, the Letterkenny extension or anything on the west coast.

The reason is it would increase capacity on suburban lines and DART which is far more important that inter-city for delivering on climate change. In fact, closing the Sligo line or terminating at Maynooth would be alternatives.

ArcadiaJunction

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121057219#Comment_121057219

Surprisingly so, and no level crossing or very few.

ohographite

Is it really a fantasy goal to (as well as investing in commuter and intercity rail) try to keep all the existing rural railways in operation and make them work? I think that the recommendations in the review (on page 55) to "Ensure regional and rural lines have at least one train per two hours" and to "Increase line speeds to at least 120km/h" should both be implemented on all existing rural railways in Ireland. If rural railways with a train running less than every 2 hours instead had at least a train every 2 hours, it would give people more opportunities to use them and almost certainly increase the number of people using them. I know that the money required to implement these changes is more than the money required to implement bus alternatives, but all existing rural railways already have bus alternatives, and making the railways faster than them (which line speeds of 120km/h would do in some cases) would give people the option of using faster public transport. Like I have also said, railways are often more scenic. So they might be more expensive to operate than bus services, but they still have advantages over them.

Just to clarify, when I say 'rural railway,' I mean every railway in Ireland that is more than 80km from Dublin, more than 30km from Cork and not a railway connecting Dublin with another city. So, to give 2 examples, I regard the Limerick-Nenagh-Ballybrophy railway and the Dublin to Sligo railway west of Mullingar as rural railways.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121090317#Comment_121090317

Well yes but not as a priority over projects that have a real shot of improving public transport for lots of people. The reality is that the railway has never seen significant investment not in 100 years at least, so if investment is coming, and that remains to be seen as we are well used to lip service on this topic, then the urban and suburban projects are priority number one, followed by the intercity.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121091510#Comment_121091510

There's also a PR element to this as well, we don't just need the projects to be successful, they have to be obviously successful, to the point that people then want more projects. The WRC was a total disaster from that point of view, it essentially ended further investment in rural rail, as every politician who supported it had to justify massively increasing the subvention for what wasn't a massive increase in usage.

Even now it's got a toxic reputation, and while some politicians still support it, no one else will touch it with a barge pole.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121091510#Comment_121091510

By that logic, we should only invest in Dublin. Biggest bang for your buck. No regional balance of development for cities like Cork, Limerick or Galway, or broader areas in the North-West.

And don't even mention large towns such as Tuam or Castlebar or Ennis or Letterkenny. The absolute cheek of those large towns thinking about new/improved rail before every last smuck commuting to Dublin has vastly improved services.

ohographite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121091510#Comment_121091510

I agree that urban, suburban and intercity rail should get more funding for improvements than rural railways, but I think that enough funding should be allocated to improve them all.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121091577#Comment_121091577

Not only, but mostly, we've already over invested in rural services, billions for high speed broadband, billions for roads and we don't even know the cost of filling the countryside with unregulated septic tanks. Dublin is grossly neglected in terms of infrastructure spend per head.

Tuam is not a large town