AI on sucklers

k mac

If you were starting from scratch with 7/8 cows on 18 acres of mostly marginal wet peaty ground and a 3 bay slatted shed what cows would you go with and using AI, what bull. Main considerations would be no.1, ease of calving, docility and if possible to sell progeny as weanlings in the mart, if not either selling as stores before the second winter or bringing to finish. Another consideration would be calving possibly outdoor in April, also as the ground is wet would the likes of hereford or angus cows be best as they are not as heavy, and might not eat as much considering there is not a big acreage.

Hard Knocks

k mac wrote: »

If you were starting from scratch with 7/8 cows on 18 acres of mostly marginal wet peaty ground and a 3 bay slatted shed what cows would you go with and using AI, what bull. Main considerations would be no.1, ease of calving, docility and if possible to sell progeny as weanlings in the mart, if not either selling as stores before the second winter or bringing to finish. Another consideration would be calving possibly outdoor in April, also as the ground is wet would the likes of hereford or angus cows be best as they are not as heavy, and might not eat as much considering there is not a big acreage.

Farming similar
On 18 Ac I’d sell all as weanlings and run about 8 cows with their calves
Ideally calve in Feb/Mar and sell in Autumn
LM & SI bred cows with CH calves
Personally I’ve had the HE & AA cows and ours were no easier to keep than the CH LM or SI
Don’t over stock as in a wet year the ground will be too soft & on a very dry year you could cut some bales with the extra grass

k mac

Hard Knocks wrote: »

Farming similar
On 18 Ac I’d sell all as weanlings and run about 8 cows with their calves
Ideally calve in Feb/Mar and sell in Autumn
LM & SI bred cows with CH calves
Personally I’ve had the HE & AA cows and ours were no easier to keep than the CH LM or SI
Don’t over stock as in a wet year the ground will be too soft & on a very dry year you could cut some bales with the extra grass

Agree would want to be calving in Feb/Mar if you want to sell as weanlings, was only thinking of calving in April as it might be possible calve out beside the shed in a paddock, no real facilities of sheds for calving, at first the only option would be to straw 1 bay of the slatted shed and calve there which would not be ideal. How is the charlous for ease of calving??, and Lim cows for temperament?

Hard Knocks

k mac wrote: »

Agree would want to be calving in Feb/Mar if you want to sell as weanlings, was only thinking of calving in April as it might be possible calve out beside the shed in a paddock, no real facilities of sheds for calving, at first the only option would be to straw 1 bay of the slatted shed and calve there which would not be ideal. How is the charlous for ease of calving??, and Lim cows for temperament?

Calving outside is alright when things go ok
If there is any issues you need a calving gate
Have no issues with the cows, anything bad for temperament, milk, calving ability or calf quality goes
A bull used this year was 8.9% and we’d no issue
You need to get the cow right and match the bull to her

Lady Haywire

Hard Knocks wrote: »

Calving outside is alright when things go ok
If there is any issues you need a calving gate
Have no issues with the cows, anything bad for temperament, milk, calving ability or calf quality goes
A bull used this year was 8.9% and we’d no issue
You need to get the cow right and match the bull to her

This is my view too, esp the bit in bold.

Are you going to buy in heifers or cows? Or bring weanlings to breeding?
If buying in, and using all A.I. you could always try two batches of 4 so say 4x Charolais & 4 Limousin.
AI all with an easy calving Limo & see how you get on, how calves look, how milk yield & docility is.
Not easy starting from scratch like that if you've no knowledge of the animals history, though you can check tags on icbf etc for back breeding & see how the milk & calving ability is.
Maybe I'm getting a bit technical there :pac:

Personally I'd not go into calving without facilities to aid them, but I do use larger bulls so need to have them in place. But regardless of the size of a calf, if the head or a foot is down, it's not coming out without help & you don't want to be stuck at that point. Is there any lying area to the shed? Can you split a pen with a 14ft (or whatever size) gate & bed that, have an area that you can run an animal behind a gate & tie with a halter if necessary?

Sami23

Advice I would give you is buy a Bull as if you don't you will end up with empties.
I have 10 cows here myself and before I bought a Bull 2 years ago I had in certain years up to 4 empties after AI.
On top of the empties it's very hard to keep tight calving interval and a calf every 365 years without a Bull

k mac

Sami23 wrote: »

Advice I would give you is buy a Bull as if you don't you will end up with empties.
I have 10 cows here myself and before I bought a Bull 2 years ago I had in certain years up to 4 empties after AI.
On top of the empties it's very hard to keep tight calving interval and a calf every 365 years without a Bull

Good advice my reasoning for thinking ai is I'll probably be working from home full time and catching them in heat shouldn't be a problem, as well you have a bigger choice with ai and can pick and choose bulls.Can I ask why you were having so many empties, was it missing them in heat or repeats?

mr.stonewall

I only started calving there since Monday. Calving outdoors, have a bit of paddock with a strip wire that I'm willing to sacrifice and cows go out first thing in the morning and come back into the shed for the night. All gathered at gap in the evening and looking to come back for grub. They get silage and minerals in the shed. Also anything close to calving I put into the feed passage on straw and under the camera. Straw usage is very little. It works wonders on the cows having them out as they are clean and more importantly they have a bit of time to loosen out and excerise. Really helps with calving. Had a cryto and rotavirus outbreak a few years ago and decided to let calving slip to the start of April. Heavy ground here means the cows are the last out, so it is great to have them out with the calf straight away. First time the calf sees the shed is back end of the year

Getting cows in calf in late June and early July is a pleasure as they are on a good plane of nutrition and also heat on their backs.
An option to consider maybe fixed time Ai. When you weigh up the costs of keeping a bull for that many cows it is a no brainer. Costs around €22 a cow plus then the straw. Your breeding is condensed to a 6-7 week block and this give tightens calving spread
Consider easy calving Aubrac, Charolais, limo, pick to suit your cow and heifers,

I finish everything here, but you could consider selling them as yearlings in late march ready for grass.
Mine stay under the cows until mid to late January and creep from the cows in a slatted pen beside them. Again no bedding costs.

Personally I would never go back to February/ March calving. Just too much disease build up in sheds. Best place for a cow to calve is outdoors,

k mac

When you say fixed time ai do you mean sponging? You seem to have a good system

mr.stonewall

k mac wrote: »

When you say fixed time ai do you mean sponging? You seem to have a good system

CDIR so yep sponging the vet calls and puts in the coils. Had great success over the last 2 years. 25 done last year and 22 held to first serve, picked the next 3 up 3weeks later. It in the Ai man's interest to have a good strike as he will never get it as handy, with all the serves in one day and he is not traveling for ones and twos.

It's all about getting a system to work for you. Not following anyone else system. Anytime you have to deal with a difficult calving it's affecting the cows chance of going back on calf. The profitable cow is the one that just does the business on her own. Goes in calf quickly to one or 2 serves, calves on her own with a live calf, and a calf that gets up and goes. Having a lot of time dealing with doozey calves trying to get them to suck, bedding sheds and calving pens, its a pleasure to go out the small corner and seeing cows doing the business themselves.
Cows spend long winters in sheds and the lack of movement could be behind some of the tricky calvings. Excerise is vital and it lets the cow clean off.

50HX

For your numbers you could hire in a bull and pick up repeats then with ai

Wouldn't be looking at/maintaing a bull for the whole year

Sami23

k mac wrote: »

Good advice my reasoning for thinking ai is I'll probably be working from home full time and catching them in heat shouldn't be a problem, as well you have a bigger choice with ai and can pick and choose bulls.Can I ask why you were having so many empties, was it missing them in heat or repeats?

Yes I work full time so suppose it was missing them in heat or not AI'ing at the correct time as wouldn't have been sure of exact onset of heat.
They were repeating also leading to calving interval slipping.
I don't know myself since I got the Bull though and often wonder how I used to have time to be putting them in for AI which is not always that straight forward either at times
Few people I've talked to would be of the same opinion in that if we didn't have a Bull we probably wouldn't keep sucklers anymore.

On the other hand it is great to be able to pick different Bulls for different Cows and if you can manage it then great but I won't be going back to AI.

jfh

Hi Mr stonewall, whats the cost per cow for the vet call out, coil and ai? Playing around with the idea myself. Thanks

Dunedin

mr.stonewall wrote: »

CDIR so yep sponging the vet calls and puts in the coils. Had great success over the last 2 years. 25 done last year and 22 held to first serve, picked the next 3 up 3weeks later.

Excerise is vital and it lets the cow clean off.

22/25 is a serious strike rate. I used to do about 5-6 heifers every year and averaged about 3/5 4/6. One year I had 5/5 and another year I had 1/5 Only ever did heifers as vet told me didn’t work as well on older cows. What age bracket were your 25 cows?

100% on the exercise

Who2

There are always plenty of aged bulls with nothing wrong only the owner holding heifers that are sold through mart rings for beef price. If I was running those numbers I’d be picking up a bull and selling on after a short stint with the cows.

Sami23

Who2 wrote: »

There are always plenty of aged bulls with nothing wrong only the owner holding heifers that are sold through mart rings for beef price. If I was running those numbers I’d be picking up a bull and selling on after a short stint with the cows.

+1

jfh

Dunedin wrote: »

22/25 is a serious strike rate. I used to do about 5-6 heifers every year and averaged about 3/5 4/6. One year I had 5/5 and another year I had 1/5 Only ever did heifers as vet told me didn’t work as well on older cows. What age bracket were your 25 cows?

100% on the exercise

Was that with just estramate, wouldn't think you'd use coil on heifers?

mr.stonewall

jfh wrote: »

Hi Mr stonewall, whats the cost per cow for the vet call out, coil and ai? Playing around with the idea myself. Thanks

Worked out at €22 per cost Inc call out of vet to put coils in. Paid the vet leaving the yard. After that it's the cost of ai. Ai company maybe willing to do a deal with all serves on the one time. Average cost of about €30
Comes to a total cost of €1250 over 25 cows or about €50 a head. No cost of carrying a bull for the year or winter and then replacement. In small herds with part time it's a no brainer

mr.stonewall

Dunedin wrote: »

22/25 is a serious strike rate. I used to do about 5-6 heifers every year and averaged about 3/5 4/6. One year I had 5/5 and another year I had 1/5 Only ever did heifers as vet told me didn’t work as well on older cows. What age bracket were your 25 cows?

100% on the exercise

Later breeding has better results and the longer daylight might have something to do with it. Less pressure on grass and ground in June and July.

Excerise for cows works wonders.

mr.stonewall

jfh wrote: »

Was that with just estramate, wouldn't think you'd use coil on heifers?

Cows and heifers get coils and the same protocol from vet. Again keep it simple and put all on the same.

50HX

Would your air man not put the prids in for you?

mr.stonewall

50HX wrote: »

Would your air man not put the prids in for you?

Vet does a lot of them and supplies everything at a competitive price. Saving 1 or 2 euro per cow is not worth the hassle

jfh

mr.stonewall wrote: »

Worked out at €22 per cost Inc call out of vet to put coils in. Paid the vet leaving the yard. After that it's the cost of ai. Ai company maybe willing to do a deal with all serves on the one time. Average cost of about €30
Comes to a total cost of €1250 over 25 cows or about €50 a head. No cost of carrying a bull for the year or winter and then replacement. In small herds with part time it's a no brainer

I'd like to tighten up the calving period, goes from end of Feb here to June, far too long. Weather or something must have changed when the bull was with them, first 15 calved pretty quickly, then long break to the next bunch. I'd like to try fixed time ai to see how things go.
Just surmising to myself Mr stonewall, thanks for the info

mr.stonewall

jfh wrote: »

I'd like to tighten up the calving period, goes from end of Feb here to June, far too long. Weather or something must have changed when the bull was with them, first 15 calved pretty quickly, then long break to the next bunch. I'd like to try fixed time ai to see how things go.
Just surmising to myself Mr stonewall, thanks for the info

Look carefully at when the cows go incalf. I had to cull alot of older cows about 6-7 years ago. Very agey cows. Breed all in calf heifers, carefully picking from the the cows that always went in calf and calved within the year. Passengers and trouble got the road. This is the foundation to the a suckler here. No calf no cashflow. Certain cows and cow families had this trait and work with it. I forget about having monster calves. If the cow can calve on her own, she has a way better chance of going back in calf. Last year had one with a twisted calf that was dead and need the jack. Great cow, from a good bull and good cow family, but she had to go as she would be a passenger for the year. This year's is has a great calving spread of about 25 days. Let's say 4-5 weeks from start to finish.

The more I think about the calving jack, just gets too much use in the suckler herd. Breeding is all about taking small steps forward to improve your herd. There is no silver bullet. Are we reducing the chance of our cows going back in calf. Do we need to review our breeding choices

I nearly consider the breeding period more important than calving, I have full control of the cows. Where as with calving the cow has to calve the calf.

The Real Elmer Fudd

Similar set up here. Run 10 sucklers and a few followers. Work off farm in an office job and use 100% AI.

At first calving pattern was spread feb to may. Got fed up with uneven bunch of calves and May calves worth considerably less at the back end when selling.

Culled the late Calvers and put a lot of focus on catching them in heat one year and pulled them back into 6 week calving interval. Once they’re in than pattern they’ll tend to stay in that 6 week pattern. Don’t use prids or cidr but do use estrumate injection on an odd one if I can’t catch them. With cull value of beef cows good. Anything that doesn’t hold after the 2nd AI gets culled and replaced with a better heifer. You’ll soon find when your culling like that for the first few years that you’ll be left with a fertile bunch of cows that go in calf first time,

Start AI on 1st June each year which leaves them calving from St Patrick’s onwards for 6 weeks each year. Calved, tagged, dehorned and out to the field. Generally works well with the exception of the odd issue. Like this year I’ve an thick calf that took two weeks to figure out how to suck the cow, an now will only suck the front two tits - but that’s the joys of sucklers

Dunedin

jfh wrote: »

Was that with just estramate, wouldn't think you'd use coil on heifers?

Yes, coil used on heifers and injected with estrumate. AI on day 3 and day 4 again after coils taken out.

tanko

Why are people using coils etc on heifers, a shot estrumate should get any heifer bulling if that's want you want to do.

Dunedin

tanko wrote: »

Why are people using coils etc on heifers, a shot estrumate should get any heifer bulling if that's want you want to do.

Vet recommended that it’s the whole 9 yards to do both coils and estrumate.

50HX

When ye say coils do ye mean cidr/prid

Thought coils couldn't be got anymore

tanko

If i was a cynical aul git i'd say of course he does, more money for him.
Heifers are the most fertile animals in the herd, they should be mad bulling without any help and a shot of estrumate should be all they need if synchronising them.

Anyway each to their own.

Have been breeding replacements off the most fertile cows which calve early in the calving season here for a few years now. Fertility good or bad is passed down the generations imo. Highly fertile cows will usually have daughters with good fertility. Using bulls which breed daughters with poor fertility can mess all this up of course.

Dunedin

tanko wrote: »

If i was a cynical aul git i'd say of course he does, more money for him.
Heifers are the most fertile animals in the herd, they should be mad bulling without any help and a shot of estrumate should be all they need if synchronising them.

Anyway each to their own.

Have been breeding replacements off the most fertile cows which calve early in the calving season here for a few years now. Fertility good or bad is passed down the generations imo. Highly fertile cows will usually have daughters with good fertility. Using bulls which breed daughters with poor fertility can mess all this up of course.

I did it one year with no coils and just estrumate and had disastrous strike rate. It’s a few years now so can’t remember the exact details.

Do you give them just one shot and how many days after do you AI or do wait and watch for them bulling?

tanko

I don't usually use cidr's, estrumate or the like, rely on natural heats as much as possible.
Using them would be a last resort, keep plenty of heifers to replace cows that have problems.
If i did estrumate a heifer i'd wait for her to come bulling.

k mac

Would it be an idea get 8 heifers mix of Angus and Hereford red ones being a bonus. Give an Angus AI to the Hereford and Hereford to the Angus. Calve them in April in a garden beside the hayshed which one bay could be used to calve them in. Bring them to finish at 24 months or so, earlier if possible. Would get the bonus for both the Angus and Hereford if brought to athleague which isn't that far away .
Have 12 acres of bog with some nice grazing in it if the cows were quite and used to the ground could let them down there with a few round bales and the feeder for October and November shortening the time they will be housed on the slats on silage which would result in a small saving. Trying to keep the cost of keeping the cow for the year as small as possible I think is important.

Donegalforever

mr.stonewall wrote: »

Worked out at €22 per cost Inc call out of vet to put coils in. Paid the vet leaving the yard. After that it's the cost of ai. Ai company maybe willing to do a deal with all serves on the one time. Average cost of about €30
Comes to a total cost of €1250 over 25 cows or about €50 a head. No cost of carrying a bull for the year or winter and then replacement. In small herds with part time it's a no brainer

You could save the Vet fees by inserting the coils yourself.
It is very easy to do. Just watch the Vet doing it and it is easy to pick up.
There is a very good video on YouTube with a Vet showing how to insert a CIDR Coil.

charolais0153

k mac wrote: »

Would it be an idea get 8 heifers mix of Angus and Hereford red ones being a bonus. Give an Angus AI to the Hereford and Hereford to the Angus. Calve them in April in a garden beside the hayshed which one bay could be used to calve them in. Bring them to finish at 24 months or so, earlier if possible. Would get the bonus for both the Angus and Hereford if brought to athleague which isn't that far away .
Have 12 acres of bog with some nice grazing in it if the cows were quite and used to the ground could let them down there with a few round bales and the feeder for October and November shortening the time they will be housed on the slats on silage which would result in a small saving. Trying to keep the cost of keeping the cow for the year as small as possible I think is important.

Red Angus and Ch bull is viable , lovely yellow calves

FeelTheBern

k mac wrote: »

Would it be an idea get 8 heifers mix of Angus and Hereford red ones being a bonus. Give an Angus AI to the Hereford and Hereford to the Angus. Calve them in April in a garden beside the hayshed which one bay could be used to calve them in. Bring them to finish at 24 months or so, earlier if possible. Would get the bonus for both the Angus and Hereford if brought to athleague which isn't that far away .
Have 12 acres of bog with some nice grazing in it if the cows were quite and used to the ground could let them down there with a few round bales and the feeder for October and November shortening the time they will be housed on the slats on silage which would result in a small saving. Trying to keep the cost of keeping the cow for the year as small as possible I think is important.

You’re obviously putting a lot of thought into this - as most of us do on here! My advice would be to do whatever is handiest and you get enjoyment from particularly if you’re working and don’t get too caught up in having everything perfect or the most efficient or best looking. The reality as far as I can see is that there’s either no money, or very little money in beef farming (maybe particularly sucklers) taking into account time and money invested compared to money being made in the real world. Heard a lad on the radio a few weeks ago saying all meat will be made in carbon neural labs in the future anyway.

So would try to enjoy whatever farming you do, try not to spend too much time at it at expense of time with family, spend as much or as little money as you want on it. Oh and if I was you I’d just buy a bull so at least you have calves 😀

bogman_bass

I don’t how anybody with that number of cows world be messing about with a bull.
100% AI here and has been since I was was in short trousers.
The big advantage of AI is you can match the bull to the cow. Where as a bull has to be one size fits all.
A bull is grand if everything goes right but if he goes lame, infertile or indeed sub-fertile then you have major headaches.
I have my doubts that a bull will get any more cows in calf in the same period but instead cows get out in calf at a later stage because the bull keeps going after you would have pulled the plug with AI

Dunedin

bogman_bass wrote: »

I don’t how anybody with that number of cows world be messing about with a bull.
100% AI here and has been since I was was in short trousers.
The big advantage of AI is you can match the bull to the cow. Where as a bull has to be one size fits all.
A bull is grand if everything goes right but if he goes lame, infertile or indeed sub-fertile then you have major headaches.
I have my doubts that a bull will get any more cows in calf in the same period but instead cows get out in calf at a later stage because the bull keeps going after you would have pulled the plug with AI

That’s a similar argument to buying a post driver versus hiring one. Every farm is different. It was always AI here since I was a child. Now use a bull and having done both I wouldn’t go back to AI for all the tea in China.
The Last year I did AI, I had a bill of €350 on 14 cows and had 3 AI calves. Near impossible to get the cows in as yard is on one side of the farm so just got a bull that year and he tided up everything albeit it dragged on. Bull is no different to any animal, sur your cows can get lame, sick, fertility issues too. Would have 97% incalf year after year with bull on a 7 week calving.

AI can work grand if your fields are set up for a handy way to get cows in (and stress free at that too) and you’re around to keep a good eye for bulling but not everyone fits both of these.

Sami23

Dunedin wrote: »

That’s a similar argument to buying a post driver versus hiring one. Every farm is different. It was always AI here since I was a child. Now use a bull and having done both I wouldn’t go back to AI for all the tea in China.
The Last year I did AI, I had a bill of €350 on 14 cows and had 3 AI calves. Near impossible to get the cows in as yard is on one side of the farm so just got a bull that year and he tided up everything albeit it dragged on. Bull is no different to any animal, sur your cows can get lame, sick, fertility issues too. Would have 97% incalf year after year with bull on a 7 week calving.

Couldn't agree more - twas a right pain trying to get them in for AI and be ending up with empties after all the hassle

SuperTortoise

As others have already said AI is grand if you're well set up for it, we done it here for a few years when i was younger and i did'nt pay much attention to chasing cows and calves around a field(s) for a few hours every week, we have a fragmented farm and admittedly not enough handling facilities on the grazing land, i work full time in a job that can be physically tiring and to be honest the last thing i want to do when i come home from a days work is to be running and chasing around a field trying to get a cow into a pen.
There are downsides to having a bull of course but for me and my setup right now, a bull is the way to go.

Albert Johnson

bogman_bass wrote: »

I don’t how anybody with that number of cows world be messing about with a bull.
100% AI here and has been since I was was in short trousers.
The big advantage of AI is you can match the bull to the cow. Where as a bull has to be one size fits all.
A bull is grand if everything goes right but if he goes lame, infertile or indeed sub-fertile then you have major headaches.
I have my doubts that a bull will get any more cows in calf in the same period but instead cows get out in calf at a later stage because the bull keeps going after you would have pulled the plug with AI

From watching suckler herds on TV in both England and the continent we (Ireland) seem to be the only one's that keep cows of every colour and breed in our herds. With so much genetic differences from cow to cow it's hard to get a bull to suit everything and therefore AI seems the most suitable option. If you had a herd of similar type cows built up then it would be easier to source a stock bull to complement them. With regard to illness or injury it's simply a case of good stockmanship imo and you have to keep your eyes open.

As for claiming that AI will deliver as many calves as a bull over whatever period I'd argue that it's dependent on a lot of factor's. If you're heat detection strategy was top notch and you had an easily workable system for getting cow's into the yard for insemination then you'd have results on par with any stock bull. However if you were missing heats/repeats, couldn't get the cow's into the yard ect then you'd be long better off with a bull imo.

The men I see getting best results from AI are elderly bachelor's who are at home during the day and watch cow's that should be coming a bulling at regular intervals throughout the day. If they were away at work or whatever that wouldn't happen and consequently they'd have a lot less success. In my own personal situation I'd have very few calves if depending on AI. Yes feeding and maintaining a bull is a cost and you need to monitor there performance during the breeding season to ensure success but it's the best compromise for my situation.

ABitofsense

AI can be tricky but as ye're saying it the setup that makes it easy. I work 9-5 each day so I've all the cows trained to come into the yard & a hand full of nuts is all that's needed. From any field in the farm they'll follow and calves learn quickly too. AI man comes around 10 so father can do this on his own hassle free if needed too. Biggest thing is detection with AI, I walk cows every morning & evening and note all heats from now to bulling time at the end of May so I'd have a very good idea when each is due heat. I only had 2 repeats from 16 last year, and these 14 all calved within 5 weeks. I run my couple of replacement hiefers with too which helps for detection.

Who2

I do both here but I couldn’t manage ai across the herd. An easy calving lm bull in my opinion ticks most of the boxes for a mixed type herd of cows but I’ve been changing over to ch more so the last few years and they aren’t as forgiving on the wrong cow. A framey red cow with a bit of shape and a good ch bull will put out a consistent type calf that attracts repeat buyers who know what they are going to get. When you go to a mart with a pen of the one type of weanlings often the best calves will attract a premium for the lesser ones. Heifers have been getting ai now each year all with replacement in mind and a handful of cows that I may try something a bit harder calves on. I’m fairly well setup for ai-ing but your head would be driven mad bringing them in and out. Most lads suckling around me have a cow type and stick fairly close to it.

minerleague

Starting out suckling I did all AI, got on well ( good calves , matching bull to cows etc.) However one year in particular nothing seemed to go right and i ended up buying a bull late in season ( local breeder with a bull that was lame in early spring ) and have a bull since. For a few years i did 3 or 4 weeks AI at start and then let off bull. Layout of farm is long narrow with cows a long way from yard at certain times

Sugarbowl

Did anyone ever hear before how the time you AI the cow can determine the sex of the calf? IE early would be a bull and late on in the heat would be a heifer. I tend to AI them late and the last 2 years especially I’ve a pile of heifers. It’s been 3 weeks now since I’ve had a bull and I’m almost calved!

charolais0153

Sugarbowl wrote: »

Did anyone ever hear before how the time you AI the cow can determine the sex of the calf? IE early would be a bull and late on in the heat would be a heifer. I tend to AI them late and the last 2 years especially I’ve a pile of heifers. It’s been 3 weeks now since I’ve had a bull and I’m almost calved!

I thought it was the other way around

SuperTeeJay

Sugarbowl wrote: »

Did anyone ever hear before how the time you AI the cow can determine the sex of the calf? IE early would be a bull and late on in the heat would be a heifer. I tend to AI them late and the last 2 years especially I’ve a pile of heifers. It’s been 3 weeks now since I’ve had a bull and I’m almost calved!

Ai man always came in the morning here so whether they were in heat the morning before or the night before made no difference to the sex of the calf .Timing of service made no difference in conception rates either.Running about 30 cows.One thing that is consistent tho is that we very rarely have any repeats when they are Ai'd in the shed but out at grass probably 30/40% repeat.

minerleague

k mac wrote: »

If you were starting from scratch with 7/8 cows on 18 acres of mostly marginal wet peaty ground and a 3 bay slatted shed what cows would you go with and using AI, what bull. Main considerations would be no.1, ease of calving, docility and if possible to sell progeny as weanlings in the mart, if not either selling as stores before the second winter or bringing to finish. Another consideration would be calving possibly outdoor in April, also as the ground is wet would the likes of hereford or angus cows be best as they are not as heavy, and might not eat as much considering there is not a big acreage.

What about a few pedigree Angus cows ( hard to justify bull for 8 cows so you'll probably be going AI anyway) Going to mart ( non pedigree cows ) hard to get value from calves by angus bull ( different going to factory with all bonuses ) so easy calving limousin on angus X fr cows( maybe keeping replacements to go 1/2 lim 1/4 angus 1/4 fr)

k mac

minerleague wrote: »

What about a few pedigree Angus cows ( hard to justify bull for 8 cows so you'll probably be going AI anyway) Going to mart ( non pedigree cows ) hard to get value from calves by angus bull ( different going to factory with all bonuses ) so easy calving limousin on angus X fr cows( maybe keeping replacements to go 1/2 lim 1/4 angus 1/4 fr)

When you say pedigree angus cows, and a easy calving limousin on angus x fr cows, would the angus x fr be a cross and not be pedigree.
Is your reason for suggesting pedigrees that when selling the offspring you could sell them as pedigrees?, the bulls for someone to use for breeding, and the heifers as pedigrees.

minerleague

k mac wrote: »

When you say pedigree angus cows, and a easy calving limousin on angus x fr cows, would the angus x fr be a cross and not be pedigree.
Is your reason for suggesting pedigrees that when selling the offspring you could sell them as pedigrees?, the bulls for someone to use for breeding, and the heifers as pedigrees.

Yes selling pedigree bulls for breeding ( dairy farmers use them a lot ), the only downside plenty doing it so either do it well or not at all. The Angus x freisen cow for normal suckling with a lim bull if you want to sell in mart. After a year or two you could try charolais / simmental as you see which cows can take a little more calving difficulty. I like the saler breed for replacements but you say docility is important to you ( they can be flighty )

k mac

minerleague wrote: »

Yes selling pedigree bulls for breeding ( dairy farmers use them a lot ), the only downside plenty doing it so either do it well or not at all. The Angus x freisen cow for normal suckling with a lim bull if you want to sell in mart. After a year or two you could try charolais / simmental as you see which cows can take a little more calving difficulty. I like the saler breed for replacements but you say docility is important to you ( they can be flighty )

Had a saler bullock last year....never ever ever again. 3 attempts to get tested, broke gates drinking troughs door, jumped the crush, skulling gate , pen and gone....if I got one for free I wouldn't take one.Greatest lunatic I ever seen. I don't care if they can calve an elephant 😀