Eamon Ryan hoping to stop cheap flights to sunny destinations

Banana Republic 1

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

Again they are transporting coal to factories that make junk to sell to the west. The west has simple exported industrial pollution to China much like Ireland exports its young people every few decade yet America and Europe still spew out a huge chunk of the CO2, NOX, sulphur dioxide etc.

That’s a nonsense argument. I do think that China should be given more time to decarbonise but they don’t just export to the west do they? China has a large consumer market. Consumption is 53% of GDP. And if you are going to charge the carbon costs of exported manufacturing to the west, what about exports from western countries? Germany is in trade surplus after all.

Although it’s not good enough Europe is at least trying to hit targets. The goal is net carbon neutrality. Norway is almost there.

https://www.nordicenergy.org/figure/ambitious-climate-targets-and-visions-for-all-nordic-countries/carbon-neutral-as-soon-as-2030/

The solution for Ireland is wind farms and lots of them.

Banana Republic 1

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

the global north then knock you’re self out googling.

That’s not true either. It’s amazing how ideologues can’t do basic research.

https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/each-countrys-share-co2-emissions

And you also need to look at net carbon. Norway will be emitting carbon when it is fully carbon neutral but compensating with exports of carbon free electricity. Europe is going to become a tiny part of the problem in the future. Depending on Biden, that will be true of the US too.

Mr. teddywinkles

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

So let's change the western world

Doesn't negate my point does it. Imagine westernising if there is such a word. All the massive poorer populations of the planet over night. Some state wed be in then. I'm all for a more environmentally friendly planet but it has to be realistic and practical.

whisky_galore

BanditLuke wrote: »

The Green's want us all living back in the dark ages when a holiday was a trip to Dingle or Tramore in the back of a caravan for a week. They'll never see a single vote from me.

While they are living it up. Oh have to go for a city break because I've a Green meeting there, bringing the family too and a few mates and their families.
See you later peasants, enjoy your Fr Ted caravan experience.

whisky_galore

whisky_galore wrote: »

While they are living it up. Oh have to go for a city break because I've a Green meeting there, bringing the family too and a few mates and their families.
See you later peasants, enjoy your Fr Ted caravan experience.

We’ll be also allowed to go to Europe via Britain by solar powered bus and solar powered boats and then a train. So there’s that. It will take a day or so to Germany if the sun is shining. Further east and add another day.

tom1ie

Lmkrnr wrote: »

Boil your head Eamon along with the Greens. We drive 1.2 litre juice misers to work as we have no good rail networks. Meanwhile every second house in New York drive a big 56 litre jeep (joking).

We are irrelevant here in Ireland. I suggest Green lovers move to China or the state's where they can implement changes that will matter.

You do realise China is the worlds leading country in renewable energy from electricity, more than double the second place which is USA?
All the people on here bashing China might want to take a look at that tbh.

tom1ie

tom1ie wrote: »

You do realise China is the worlds leading country in renewable energy from electricity, more than double the second place which is USA?
All the people on here bashing China might want to take a look at that tbh.

That’s true. I tend to admire china’s economic growth.

At the moment though it’s clearly wrong to say that 90% of emissions are the global north.

tom1ie

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That’s true. I tend to admire china’s economic growth.

At the moment though it’s clearly wrong to say that 90% of emissions are the global north.

Yeah agreed. At the same time people saying Irish people and the Eu aren’t really part of the problem/ won’t make much difference are wrong.
We all live on the same rock and unless we all do something we are heading for leaner times.

Beechwoodspark

Interesting but depressing reading

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/climate-change-carbon-dioxide-highest-level-million-years/

Eric Cartman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That’s true. I tend to admire china’s economic growth.

At the moment though it’s clearly wrong to say that 90% of emissions are the global north.

There are people determined to make climate change the rich white mans burden when in reality any further improvements europe make is pissing into the wind until asia, africa and south america improve their atrocious emissions.

tom1ie

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Interesting but depressing reading

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/climate-change-carbon-dioxide-highest-level-million-years/

Agreed, but what can we do about it now? It’s clear even just from this thread people don’t acknowledge that we are driving this problem.
It’s like the pandemic, people don’t accept responsibility for spreading the virus likewise they don’t accept responsibility for contributing to climate change via over consumption.
It’s a fact of life and I don’t know how or if humans will change.

tom1ie

Eric Cartman wrote: »

There are people determined to make climate change the rich white mans burden when in reality any further improvements europe make is pissing into the wind until asia, africa and south america improve their atrocious emissions.

Again you are ignoring the fact China are the worlds leading renewable electricity producer and accelerating in that sector.
India aren’t that far behind either.

Eric Cartman

tom1ie wrote: »

Again you are ignoring the fact China are the worlds leading renewable electricity producer and accelerating in that sector.
India aren’t that far behind either.

Im not ignoring that at all, but theyre also the worlds worst polluter, you can have as many solar panels as you want but when you allow burning mountains of plastic, are responsible for most ocean chemical emission and ocean plastic dumping and the only way you keep per capita carbon numbers artificially low is by having millions living in abject poverty , youre not getting a clap from me for renewables

Calahonda52

Amirani wrote: »

Yes, but there are substantial free allowances given to airlines under the ETS. About 32 million tonnes were given free in 2019 for example.

Even without that, there is still a tax-free exemption on kerosene worth about €27 billion. This isn't enjoyed by other industries on the fuel they buy.

https://www.transportenvironment.org/press/eu-sat-data-showing-benefits-ending-airlines%E2%80%99-tax-break-%E2%80%93-leak

ETS is a complete sham as there is no net reduction ing CO2.

Back when it started, the credits were used to move the nomadic tribes and other residents in the poorer parts of the world away from burning animal manure for cooking to ...... kerosene and paraffin stoves

Thelonious Monk

tom1ie wrote: »

Agreed, but what can we do about it now? It’s clear even just from this thread people don’t acknowledge that we are driving this problem.
It’s like the pandemic, people don’t accept responsibility for spreading the virus likewise they don’t accept responsibility for contributing to climate change via over consumption.
It’s a fact of life and I don’t know how or if humans will change.

We wont change no, I just hate how people are so ridiculed for daring to suggest we might live in a more modest fashion to maybe make the Earth last a bit longer.
What do people expect from the leader of a country's Green party anyway?
He's hardly going to say let's keep expanding the airlines and lowering prices and giving more tax breaks to airlines to increase fuel consumption.
It has to be part of any Green party's manifesto to encourage people to fly and drive less - that is why they don't get many votes, so you can all relax, he's not going to change much.

Bass Reeves

The problem with fixing climate change is you need a world wide solution. I. The 90's when it was first started when there first started to be world wide agreements poorer nation were given free rein. As well some nations ignore the issue. Now in Europe where on average we have steadied and are slowly reducing our carbon footprint elsewhere in the world it's bringing increased.

We make up less than 10% of the world's population. Our present average footprint is about 6.5 tons per person. However China is 1.4 billion and they now exceed our per capital is not about 50% greater than ours. The US even had less carbon footprint per person than China. China has achieved a huge economic advantage by ignoring carbon.

It's not right either that food is the exception to alotting carbon footprint elsewhere. Any other product consumed is part of the carbon footprint if that nation whether it's a nail or a car. Food is the exception it's production is considered part of the country it originated from.

The methodology of arriving at the footprint of meat and dairy is flawed. Meat and dairy produced from grazed aanimalsis allocated the same footprint as from a feedlot or from a rainforests.

Finally is there much point in Ireland sending it plastics to Aisa to be recycled or burnt compare to be incinerated here to produce electricity

Nermal

Pussyhands wrote: »

How much did emissions drop during the pandemic where there was virtually 0 travel?

Globally, in 2020, a fall of 6.4%, link

To get to that figure took more than travel, we had to do was literally force large parts of the economy to stop, at a cost of trillions, incurring debt that our great-grandchildren will still be paying off.

See also, the collapse of the Soviet Union. A small fall in carbon emissions (link) - all it took was economic implosion that drove hundreds of millions of people into grinding poverty.

Remember these examples the next time you hear the words 'net zero'.

Nermal

Scooters, bicycles, crowded public transport or simply walking, instead of cars.

No meat.

Cramped, unaffordable living spaces.

Expensive energy.

Isn't it funny, how the low carbon world looks like the third world?

Thelonious Monk

Nermal wrote: »

Scooters, bicycles crowded public transport or simply walking, instead of cars.

I can't tell if you're saying this would be a good or bad thing? Sounds far better than gridlocked cities to me.

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

We wont change no, I just hate how people are so ridiculed for daring to suggest we might live in a more modest fashion to maybe make the Earth last a bit longer.
What do people expect from the leader of a country's Green party anyway?
He's hardly going to say let's keep expanding the airlines and lowering prices and giving more tax breaks to airlines to increase fuel consumption.
It has to be part of any Green party's manifesto to encourage people to fly and drive less - that is why they don't get many votes, so you can all relax, he's not going to change much.

Most people are attacking his solution, which is a clear regressive tax, rather than green ideas themselves. Only technological solutions will solve this. The developing world is growing fairly rapidly in population and per capita. This purported tax will penalise the poor and middle income, destroy hundreds of thousands of jobs. and air travel isn’t that significant a carbon cost anyway.

Want to save 2% net carbon? More offshore wind farms. Only technology can solve this.

ressem

tom1ie wrote: »

Agreed, but what can we do about it now? It’s clear even just from this thread people don’t acknowledge that we are driving this problem.
It’s like the pandemic, people don’t accept responsibility for spreading the virus likewise they don’t accept responsibility for contributing to climate change via over consumption.
It’s a fact of life and I don’t know how or if humans will change.

Accepting responsibility for climate change accomplishes very little.
In the case of the virus, it's 1) wear a mask around others, 2) wash hands and dramatically reduce avoidable physical contact, 3) get vaccinated. After that we hit the cost/benefit trading.

For climate change a lot of little gestures are pushed, some of which are un-pragmatic, expensive and difficult to justify in costs (household comfort, financial or work (jobs nor competitiveness)).


And we seem to be waiting on technology to buy us an escape; while keeping the living standards improvements that Ireland has gained since the 1970s.

• Housing. Printed houses delivering lower costs to allow the carbon reduction in construction and offset the expensive heating / insulation gadgets.
• Transport. Battery and vehicle bodywork that can be re-manufactured / re-purposed efficiently.
• Similar for most consumer appliances; repair-ability, diagnosable + swap-able internal / externals. (likely on the circuit boards already to assist quality control at the factory)
• Energy generation, the 10s of billions going into ITER / DEMO fusion theory?
• Genetically modified plants, insect protein.

I don't think that people give a damn in general. If a tree blocks 'their' sunlight, it's exterminated.
One person picking up litter as they walk to work each morning can keep a mile of roadside clean. But nah, it's someone else's problem.

Same for the greens, almost all parties sign up for EU legislation (politicians and civil servants not wanting to be seen as anti-eu, reducing their job prospects);
but then the usual suspects dishonestly pin responsibility for closed power plants, higher fuel taxes, "no suntan for you" on a minority party.

In most cases the greens are haplessly trying to put a positive spin on what we're already signed up for.

But there's so little upside it sounds like "What would life and emissions look like with a 1973 standard of living / "low energy spend" with 2020s technology? "

Pussyhands

GNA - Greens Never Again.

All the greens want to do is "no you can't do this, you can't do that!"

They want to lower the standard of living for people by hiking up prices on every tiny thing thing that gives joy/is needed for day to day living.

Heating - carbon tax/ ban on peat meaning imports from abroad

Fuel - carbon tax

Flights - carbon tax/no cheapies!

Transport - banning ICE and forcing us to spend massive money on EVs

Housing - Costs rocketing due to higher energy ratings as standard.

I'm sick of these dumb Greens. Answer me this Mr. Ryan, how can these savings in emissions you think you'll get from all these reduce emissions by any meaningful level to save the planet when the economy was shut down in 2020 and emissions only dropped by 6%!

And tell me this Mr. Ryan, the government is planning for a population growth of 1m in 20 years. That means even if we reduce our emissions by 20%, we're still at the level of emissions seen today, which you think are not acceptable, so tell me how you're going to cut emissions by so much if shutting down a whole economy, no flights, business or cars on the road means a drop of only 6%!

NeuralNetwork

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That’s a nonsense argument. I do think that China should be given more time to decarbonise but they don’t just export to the west do they? China has a large consumer market. Consumption is 53% of GDP. And if you are going to charge the carbon costs of exported manufacturing to the west, what about exports from western countries? Germany is in trade surplus after all.

Although it’s not good enough Europe is at least trying to hit targets. The goal is net carbon neutrality. Norway is almost there.

https://www.nordicenergy.org/figure/ambitious-climate-targets-and-visions-for-all-nordic-countries/carbon-neutral-as-soon-as-2030/

The solution for Ireland is wind farms and lots of them.

I always find that a bit of a joke. Norway is almost there on its domestic emissions, while being one of the worlds largest oil and gas exporters. So we carbon tax agricultural production or any other industry, but we give the largest producer of CO2 in Europe a free pass and go: look at the electric cars! Ignore the giant oil and gas platforms that pay for all of it.

It’s like having the CEO of some some massive coal mining company turning up in a Tesla thinking they’re saving the planet.

For Norway to be net carbon neutral it would need to offset its entire fossil fuel exports.

I’ll take examples from Denmark, France and all sorts of places, but a massive hydrocarbon producer ?! ...

Austria!

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Interesting but depressing reading

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/climate-change-carbon-dioxide-highest-level-million-years/

This is why no on trusts the mainstream/"lamestream" media. As far as I can tell those figures include CO2 released by Ireland (which is a very small country) and even includes CO2 released from flights to and from Islands. Everyone on boards knows CO2 molecules from these sources have a unique molecular structure which prevents them from trapping heat or contributing to climate change.

RandomViewer

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Drones should be up, €5k fines handed out.

If people can't afford the bins they'll hardly manage the fines, are Greens so financially stupid? Not everyone has a trust fund like them

NeuralNetwork

My question is does this explain why the government hasn’t bailed out the aviation sector?

Most European countries, including many that are far far less depended on aviation have ensured that major airlines don’t go wallop, yet at as far as I’m aware we haven’t done anything along those lines for Aer Lingus or any aspect of Ryanair.

I’m just hoping that we’re not going to be in a situation in 2022 - 2023 where we’ve a bankrupt former national carrier and massively reduced connectivity.

Without aviation, we are a remote island in the North Atlantic. There’s no way around that and there’s no way of connecting it reasonably.

We aren’t in Central Europe and we’re just not going to be able to replace Aer Lingus with a train as the infrastructure to do so isn’t even possible.

Banana Republic 1

Nermal wrote: »

Scooters, bicycles, crowded public transport or simply walking, instead of cars.

No meat.

Cramped, unaffordable living spaces.

Expensive energy.

Isn't it funny, how the low carbon world looks like the third world?

No.

RandomViewer

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

I'm being choked by those stoves in the middle of a city centre as a load of my neighbours installed them. It's so bad my eyes sting some nights and you can smell smoke all over the place.

As for the cutting off access to aviation, you'd want to remember that we're an island. We could end up extremely isolated if aviation becomes unaffordable and the only environmentally friendly option would be emigration to a higher population area like continental Europe or the US as it will just become uncompetitive to operate from here.

You can thank the Greens for that too, when the assisted FF tank the country lots of people couldn't afford oil or electricity, burning scrap timber and plastic was the only way they could stay warm.

Banana Republic 1

Eric Cartman wrote: »

There are people determined to make climate change the rich white mans burden when in reality any further improvements europe make is pissing into the wind until asia, africa and south america improve their atrocious emissions.

Rich white men control the majority of the worlds wealth.

Banana Republic 1

Nermal wrote: »

Globally, in 2020, a fall of 6.4%, link

To get to that figure took more than travel, we had to do was literally force large parts of the economy to stop, at a cost of trillions, incurring debt that our great-grandchildren will still be paying off.

See also, the collapse of the Soviet Union. A small fall in carbon emissions (link) - all it took was economic implosion that drove hundreds of millions of people into grinding poverty.

Remember these examples the next time you hear the words 'net zero'.

Your great grandchildren will be paying a lot more if the world doesn’t do everything possible to mitigate man made climate change.

Currently the oil industry get €5 billion dollars a year in subsidies globally every single year.