Eamon Ryan hoping to stop cheap flights to sunny destinations

blackwhite

Deleted User wrote: »

...and most of the ferries depart Dublin, Liverpool and Holyhead overnight not because that is just the way it is but because people want to catch a few hours sleep on the trip.

Freight demand dictates their timetables. All down to having produce arriving at the times the customers want.

blackwhite

blackwhite wrote: »

Freight demand dictates their timetables. All down to having produce arriving at the times the customers want.

You mean in the morning when people are awake.

mikhail

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

There is! Use electricity in the production of hydrogen, in fact that’s the end plan for the moneypoint revamp.

Ammonia is being investigated too. Like hydrogen, it can be made using solar power and burns clean. Unlike hydrogen, you don't have to store it under pressure.

blackwhite

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

There is! Use electricity in the production of hydrogen, in fact that’s the end plan for the moneypoint revamp.

That's not a solar-powered ferry though - which is what was being proposed.

LNG or Hydrogen power will be the most likely alternative for shipping in the forseeable future.


Any solar power solutions for commercial shipping are going to be for supplementary power which will certainly reduce the consumption of whatever the primary fuel is, but it's still a long time before we will see any fully solar-powered ferries or cargo vessels

blackwhite

Deleted User wrote: »

You mean in the morning when people are awake.

Nothing to do with that really. The demand is driven by the time that warehousing and/or shops are opening each day. Busiest time in Dublin Port for arrivals is 5.30-6.30 each morning, so any incomming perishables are arriving at shops in time for the morning opening time.

Absolutely nothing to do without your claims that timetables are dictated "because people want to catch a few hours sleep on the trip"

Bass Reeves

blackwhite wrote: »

Nothing to do with that really. The demand is driven by the time that warehousing and/or shops are opening each day. Busiest time in Dublin Port for arrivals is 5.30-6.30 each morning, so any incomming perishables are arriving at shops in time for the morning opening time.

Absolutely nothing to do without your claims that timetables are dictated "because people want to catch a few hours sleep on the trip"

Haulier will target ferry times to coincide with driver's test times. It one of the reasons that the ferries to France are becoming popular. As drivers have a 24 hour rest period it resets the click and they can work 5 days continuously without a 24 hour rest period. They still have to observe daily rest periods after 8 hours driving which equates to a 11-12 hour shift.

Rest periods are critical to truck drivers so hauliers will target ferry journeys around rest periods. That why when you a
Go into a ferry terminal you will see trucks parked up to complete a rest period after or before a ferry journey.

Previous to Brexit ferries from Ireland to the UK were synchronised to the ferries in Dover. A driver could take a ferry journey from Ireland to a UK port, complete a ferry journey and drive to Dover to catch a ferry to Calais. The reverse was true on the way back

gozunda

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

most soy is grown for animals

Oh no its not. Not like that discussion hasn't been trashed many times already.

Anyway afIk this thread is about "Eamon Ryan hoping to stop cheap flights to sunny destinations"

Not another endless farming bashing opportunity ..

And no farming not perfect but a small number living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones and etc

blackwhite

blackwhite wrote: »

Nothing to do with that really. The demand is driven by the time that warehousing and/or shops are opening each day. Busiest time in Dublin Port for arrivals is 5.30-6.30 each morning, so any incomming perishables are arriving at shops in time for the morning opening time.

Absolutely nothing to do without your claims that timetables are dictated "because people want to catch a few hours sleep on the trip"

If your claims with regard to "perishables" were the only reason for selection of saiing times then seeing that the the economics of operating ferries are highly dependent upon Freight traffic there would be NO daytime services whatsoever but there are.
Some Ferry companies are operating services direct to the Continent which are unsuitable for perishable product too. There is freight beyond "perishables" and highly "perishable" and rapidly depreciating product is getting imported by air too.
Why do you wish to deny that Truckers needing to satisfy their legal requirement to take a number of hours of rest at a time which aligns with their circadian rythmn would not have an input on ferry sailings timetables.
I'm reasonable enough to admit that transport of perishables has "some" influence on time of sailings.

blackwhite

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Haulier will target ferry times to coincide with driver's test times. It one of the reasons that the ferries to France are becoming popular. As drivers have a 24 hour rest period it resets the click and they can work 5 days continuously without a 24 hour rest period. They still have to observe daily rest periods after 8 hours driving which equates to a 11-12 hour shift.

Rest periods are critical to truck drivers so hauliers will target ferry journeys around rest periods. That why when you a
Go into a ferry terminal you will see trucks parked up to complete a rest period after or before a ferry journey.

Previous to Brexit ferries from Ireland to the UK were synchronised to the ferries in Dover. A driver could take a ferry journey from Ireland to a UK port, complete a ferry journey and drive to Dover to catch a ferry to Calais. The reverse was true on the way back

The schedules haven't changed due to Brexit - the ferries are still running at the same times.
DFDS and P&O reduced the frequency of some services on Dover-Calais due to COVID last summer and haven't restored all of those services yet.

The landbridge has been impacted because of 1) the complexity of having to deal with 2-3 customs regimes if looking to make a full landbridge journey and 2) the uncertainty of getting through Dover without disruption - which is a combination of Covid restrictions as well as Brexit issues.

As for the 24 hour rest period - I think Rosslare-Dunkirk is currently the only service which gives the 24 hours - the rest are all shorter crossing times than that.

Thelonious Monk

There's also a ferry from Rosslare to Bilbao, once you're in Bilbao you could take the train anywhere. I'd love to do this route sometime.

blackwhite

Deleted User wrote: »

If your claims with regard to "perishables" were the only reason for selection of saiing times then seeing that the the economics of operating ferries are highly dependent upon Freight traffic there would be NO daytime services whatsoever but there are.
Some Ferry companies are operating services direct to the Continent which are unsuitable for perishable product too. There is freight beyond "perishables" and highly "perishable" and rapidly depreciating product is getting imported by air too.
Why do you wish to deny that Truckers needing to satisfy their legal requirement to take a number of hours of rest at a time which aligns with their circadian rythmn would not have an input on ferry sailings timetables.
I'm reasonable enough to admit that transport of perishables has "some" influence on time of sailings.

There's 24-hour demand (or at least there was prior to 2021) on the Dublin-Holyhead routes. So much so that the two operators on the route offer 8 crossings each daily.

The actual timings of those are determined by the highest demand time slot, with the other sailings then scheduled to fit into the 24 hours schedule around it. Holyhead to Dublin departing between 2am and 3am is the key time slot - with the 8.30-9pm departures out of Dublin the next busiest.

Getting deliveries to Irish retailers before the morning opening is what makes the late-night sailing out of Holyhead the busiest one, and that's ultimately what is determining the schedules on central corridor for both companies.

Eric Cartman

Bambi wrote: »

And climate change predictions have a funny habit of turning out to be wrong

https://extinctionclock.org/

A brilliant site, I love all the "no's" next to every single event that has passed by.

Eric Cartman

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

There's also a ferry from Rosslare to Bilbao, once you're in Bilbao you could take the train anywhere. I'd love to do this route sometime.

That route is starting this summer I think. Im definitely going to take the car over and drive around Spain , would be a great adventure.

Rosslare Europort really opening up a lot of destinations for a better adventure than just air travel or going to the UK.

Thelonious Monk

Eric Cartman wrote: »

That route is starting this summer I think. Im definitely going to take the car over and drive around Spain , would be a great adventure.

Rosslare Europort really opening up a lot of destinations for a better adventure than just air travel or going to the UK.

I think there was a route to Santander that maybe this is replacing. The ferry journey in itself would be an adventure, I love ferries.

blackwhite

blackwhite wrote: »

There's 24-hour demand (or at least there was prior to 2021) on the Dublin-Holyhead routes. So much so that the two operators on the route offer 8 crossings each daily.

The actual timings of those are determined by the highest demand time slot, with the other sailings then scheduled to fit into the 24 hours schedule around it. Holyhead to Dublin departing between 2am and 3am is the key time slot - with the 8.30-9pm departures out of Dublin the next busiest.

Getting deliveries to Irish retailers before the morning opening is what makes the late-night sailing out of Holyhead the busiest one, and that's ultimately what is determining the schedules on central corridor for both companies.

Thank you. I'm glad we met in the middle there.

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

There's also a ferry from Rosslare to Bilbao, once you're in Bilbao you could take the train anywhere. I'd love to do this route sometime.

Good man.

I once took a 36 hours to get to Paris on a bus ferry combination, which had to shelter off Portsmouth.

People got sick on me. Not gonna lie. Was not fun.

Thelonious Monk

Deleted User wrote: »

Good man.

I once took a 36 hours to get to Paris on a bus ferry combination, which had to shelter off Portsmouth.

People got sick on me. Not gonna lie. Was not fun.

Yes my memories are vague but when I was very young we took a bus from Dublin right down to near Biarritz, via Holyhead and England, before there was a tunnel obviously. I think we were there for 3 weeks so these longer journeys are grand if you're spending a bit of time away.

Eric Cartman

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I think there was a route to Santander that maybe this is replacing. The ferry journey in itself would be an adventure, I love ferries.

yeah , moving it from cork-santander to rosslare-bilbao , I think they figured out most people getting off in Santander were just going to Bilbao anyway and most were coming from the east coast not cork. It makes the most sense really.

I do like an aul ferry myself, and not having to rent a car on the other end is just bonus points, stock up on cheap European wine on my way back.

Banana Republic 1

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

There is! Use electricity in the production of hydrogen, in fact that’s the end plan for the moneypoint revamp.

That’s decades away. We need renewables to power domestic and manufacturing electricity, then double to expand to electric fleet and then even more to generate hydrogen.

And it would still be slow. Why not use the electricity to generate air fuel.

https://www.marketplace.org/2019/10/10/a-new-jet-fuel-offers-the-prospect-of-no-carbon-guilt-free-flying/

Air travel is 2% of emissions. It’s one of the hardest things to fix. Fixing domestic electricity via renewables is easy. You could claim back 2% by retrofitting houses.

I’m old enough to remember relatives taking the bus and ferry to London. That was a sad way to travel. Carbon taxes will reintroduce it.

Thelonious Monk

Deleted User wrote: »

Air travel is 2% of emissions. It’s one of the hardest things to fix.

2% is actually quite a lot when you consider that the vast majority of the planet will never step on a plane, and the industry keeps growing.

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

2% is actually quite a lot when you consider that the vast majority of the planet will never step on a plane, and the industry keeps growing.

You want to solve this by making the vast majority of Irish people, but not the richer Irish, not ever get on a plane again. Which was true pre 1995 or so.

And most economic growth and population growth is outside the west. Why the obsession with this except class war?

Thelonious Monk

Deleted User wrote: »

You want to solve this by making the vast majority of Irish people, but not the richer Irish, not ever get on a plane again. Which was true pre 1995 or so.

And most economic growth and population growth is outside the west. Why the obsession with this except class war?

No I think it's too cheap given the damage it's doing environmentally. People should fly once a year maybe, not to Liverpool matches every weekend.
And normal working class people were going to the Costa del Sol in the 1980s, they just weren't flying 6 times a year.
The rich Irish could and will always be able to afford more things than others.

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

No I think it's too cheap given the damage it's doing environmentally. People should fly once a year maybe, not to Liverpool matches every weekend.
And normal working class people were going to the Costa del Sol in the 1980s, they just weren't flying 6 times a year.

No they weren’t. I was born in 1975 and didn’t fly until 1997 or so. Never during my childhood. I took the bus to London though to work a summer. And the bus to Paris on a school trip. And the bus to Amsterdam. I was pretty amazed to fly to London and back in a day in 1997. My company sent me. Look at the costs back then and compare with incomes.

The rich Irish could and will always be able to afford more things than others.

If this is a climate emergency then let’s stop the rich flying, same as everybody else. As I said a voucher system would work. One short haul flight per year or, eschewing that, save up for one long haul every 5 years. Maybe businesses can have a carbon allowance for travel for exceptional cases. This isn’t my recommendation necessarily because I’d fix domestic and housing carbon costs first but if air travel has to be reduced then a voucher system is the way to do it.

All the more so because the actual usage of air travel follows a pareto’s law distribution. Most people take one per year, but some people take dozens - mostly but not always businessmen. And if they are working for Google etc the kind of costs that would stop a family of 4 travelling to Spain, an extra 100-200 per ticket adding up to 800 to the flight, would have no effect on google sending a businessman somewhere.

A few years ago businesses expected to pay though the nose for the flexibility of business tickets. Often they still do.

So you might stop 80% of the population flying but save merely 1% of the carbon costs, at a major economic cost.

Thelonious Monk

Deleted User wrote: »

No they weren’t. I was born in 1975 and didn’t fly until 1997 or so. Never during my childhood. I took the bus to London though to work a summer. And the bus to Paris on a school trip. And the bus to Amsterdam. I was pretty amazed to fly to London and back in a day in 1997. My company sent me. Look at the costs back then and compare with incomes.

If the area I grew up in is anything to go by, they certainly were.
Jasus sure I paid for 2 package holidays in 96 and 97 completely on my own to the Canaries through my part time job washing dishes when I was a teenager in school, you could pay off package holidays weekly back then.
It was not out of reach for most people.
If you want to stop the rich flying too, would you be in favour of the rich not having exclusivity on big houses, fast cars etc? Maybe you're a communist?

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

If the area I grew up in is anything to go by, they certainly were.
Jasus sure I paid for 2 package holidays in 96 and 97 completely on my own to the Canaries through my part time job washing dishes when I was a teenager in school, you could pay off package holidays weekly back then.

Do you understand decades? You said the 1980s.

It was not out of reach for most people.
If you want to stop the rich flying too, would you be in favour of the rich not having exclusivity on big houses, fast cars etc? Maybe you're a communist?

No. But a voucher system for housing is hardly going to work while my voucher system for air travel would.

You’ve pretty much confirmed my suspicion that this is class war. You aren’t upset by the rich or businessmen flying, that’s the order of things, but are upset by the average joe flying more than necessary.

Thelonious Monk

Well 1980s Donaghmede had plenty of families going on package holidays from my experience. We are all rich in Ireland, people on the dole go on foreign holidays. It's not a rich poor thing for me.
Look Eamon will be gone sooner or later but something will be done. Worst case scenario they'll put a 10 euro levy on flights or something along those lines to pay heed to environmental issues.

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Well 1980s Donaghmede had plenty of families going on package holidays from my experience. We are all rich in Ireland, people on the dole go on foreign holidays. It's not a rich poor thing for me.
Look Eamon will be gone sooner or later but something will be done. Worst case scenario they'll put a 10 euro levy on flights or something along those lines to pay heed to environmental issues.

I doubt if you were ever in Donaghmede.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/sep/25/1-of-english-residents-take-one-fifth-of-overseas-flights-survey-shows

1% of English people take 20% of flights and the top 10% take 50% of all flights. These are the very people who won’t be affected by price mechanisms. So not only is your class war going to destroy tourism but even if it stopped the bottom 90% of people flying it would save just 50% of emissions at the least.

In fact probably far less because some of the top 1% use private jets and probably take more long haul travel. And first class and business travel cost more carbon equivalents per person, as they use more room and carry more luggage. The world bank reckons its 2-3 times more

https://www.airportwatch.org.uk/2013/06/new-norwich-airport-flights-revealed-for-winter-2010/

I’ll come back to the absurd claim that normal people took flights commonly in the 80s later.

Some sensible suggestions in the guardian page there.

The new findings bolster calls for a frequent flyer levy, a proposal under which each citizen would be allowed one tax-free flight per year but would pay progressively higher taxes on each additional flight taken.

Still not good enough though as it doesn’t harm millionaires. Voucher.

Strumms

What does the levy do though ?

How much would the levy be ?

Is the levy put into a climate change ‘pot’... how is that to be spent actually ?

Putting a levy on flights is not going to impact anybody of means..

Is it not easier to tax airlines more of their profits ? But if it’s just a deterrent that won’t work.

Doing that though will mean they’ll charge the public more anyway...

So ultimately the passenger gets fûcked over, the airlines are less profitable, tourism is less prevalent, the country suffers, everywhere and everyone suffers...