Return to office dilemma, no longer in Dublin

ec18

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I'm trying to visualise this if it happened to me (I am the manager in the story).

OK, so you've decided not to say anything. I then discover in August when I ask you to come back in full-time that you've moved to NI. My reaction would be WTF and I would be thinking hang on he just moved countries and never told us?

I would be a bit annoyed by I would try to make it work. If you can't come back to the office you would need to go.

Now let me imagine if you told me about it this evening.

OK, I would be thinking its fair enough. But I would also be thinking you might be disposable, as you realistically can't work properly for the company anymore. I would assume your time at the company is limited. Assumption is I will need you back in the office. However if we're moving to a work from home situation then I wouldn't give a ****.

So I think what you should try to do is ask what is the plan for people returning to the office. Basically find out what the plan is, and if it won't work for you, tell your manager. Don't wait until the last moment.

Unless the company has signalled to you that WfH is going to be a thing then you'll need to let him know as soon as possible. When you move you'll have to update your address with HR so it would be better for your boss to find out from you rather than someone emailing him going hey did you know he left the country.

As someone mentioned tax is a problem as you'll probably have to pay something to HMRC and revenue. As well as you will potentially be working under different worker legislation in NI than there is in the EU.

Personally I know my company are ok with you moving around the republic and commuting a day or two but outside the jurisdiction is a no no

witchgirl26

I know lots of people have mentioned the tax element but there is also other issues with working (even if working from home) in another jurisdiction in terms of legalities and duty of care. I travel to NI & the UK for work quite a bit in normal times and we had to work out how many days of the year I'm working outside of Ireland to ensure I was under the limit (can't remember the exact amount).

Also I'd look into the company's work from home policy for normal times. Most companies I know want you in the office for at least 3 days a week as if you are majority working from home, they are under an obligation to set you up at home with a proper office set up (desk, monitor etc) and will often not provide a desk in work for you.

bucketybuck

From the employee side of things:

The main question seems to be if they will make everybody come back into the office at some stage or not? If indications were that they would be ok with a long term work from home arrangement then I would talk to them now and sort something out.

If you thought that they did intend to force everybody back into the office then there is no benefit to saying anything now, all it does is give them time to make contingency plans. You would be better off doing your work and saying nothing until the point comes where they say "right folks, in you come". Then you ring the boss and tell him that circumstances have changed and that coming in every day no longer suits for you, that you are thinking of moving to NI and can you work something out. They are bound to be expecting some requests like that but are more likely to accommodate you when they don't have months to find a replacement. Of course, you would need to be prepared to be told that it is either come in or **** off.

ec18

bucketybuck wrote: »

If you thought that they did intend to force everybody back into the office then there is no benefit to saying anything now, all it does is give them time to make contingency plans. You would be better off doing your work and saying nothing until the point comes where they say "right folks, in you come". Then you ring the boss and tell him that circumstances have changed and that coming in every day no longer suits for you, that you are thinking of moving to NI and can you work something out. They are bound to be expecting some requests like that but are more likely to accommodate you when they don't have months to find a replacement. Of course, you would need to be prepared to be told that it is either come in or **** off.

If i understood the OP if that convo happens he will already have moved to NI by the time they say in you come?

bucketybuck

ec18 wrote: »

If i understood the OP if that convo happens he will already have moved to NI by the time they say in you come?

Yes. I'm saying to keep that to himself until it suits him best.

Not forever, I know there are tax implications, but he is just talking a few months, and if they are going "strictly back in the office now" then it is just a side issue anyway.

ec18

for him though it's likely to destroy any good will he may have with his manager if it only comes out then rather than telling them now during a chat.

I did similar recently, where I'm thinking of leaving Dublin and had a quiet word with my manager around what sort of options might be open for remote working when normality returns.

OMM 0000

When your manager thinks you're sneaky or can't be trusted, your chance of getting promoted drops considerably.

GreeBo

Greenlights16 wrote: »

Yep, I agree tax is one of the issues. But that’s not the discussion I was after here I suppose, or I would have put it in the taxation forum.

Its not *your* taxation issue that will be the problem, by you living and working in another country you make your employer have a permanent establishment and make them liable for corporation tax in the UK.

Failing to disclose this could lead to termination, I know of numerous people who had to leave and try to be hired as contractors back to the same company.

https://home.kpmg/ie/en/home/insights/2020/10/covid-19-work-anywhere-together.html
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/work/why-multinationals-are-calling-employees-back-to-ireland-1.4379472

bucketybuck

ec18 wrote: »

for him though it's likely to destroy any good will he may have with his manager if it only comes out then rather than telling them now during a chat.

And telling him now may have his manager quietly deciding that the OP is somebody they may want to lose and start making some contingency plans in the background.

I'm not saying he will or he won't, but I've seen it happen.

knipex

Vestiapx wrote: »

Ni is actually not that bad, I know loads of people that live in the north and work in the south.

But they work in the south.

The OP will be working in NI for a company in the South. That is a very different situation, different employment laws, public holidays, H&S etc etc.

atilladehun

Since nothing is set in stone return to work wise why don't you approach it from a how would you feel/ is like to explore.

The company might be more open to a pros and cons chat versus a direct question requiring an answer. It's not really one of those better to ask for forgiveness than permission situations.

It's business, you sell things in business, sell them this idea. If you have the ear of a good boss who can make a decision I'd work them as well as HR.

Raytown Rocks

There may be an issue with your wage/income at some point
certain bigger companies ( based in Dublin) have numerous Employees who were previously living and working for said company in Dublin.

Since lockdown many have returned to their own countries on a short term basis while C19 continues.

These companies are looking to offer these guys the options to WFH long term and WFH means being in another country. Also some employees are looking for this option themselves, and have asked the company if its possible

The company is now looking to change their staffs wage based on the country they now live in and not based on a wage for them based in Dublin or the role itself

So
Employee A works for ( google/FB/Twitter etc) in Dublin on €60,000
Employee A moves back to Poland, ( insert any other country here) their salary drops to €45,000 ( insert variable other amount here)


Mostly based on cost of living in the related country.
Lower cost of living = lower wage for the same job
Higher cost of living, your told the job is Dublin based

May not affect you, but this is taking place in certain companies

kathleen37

chef wrote: »

There may be an issue with your wage/income at some point
certain bigger companies ( based in Dublin) have numerous Employees who were previously living and working for said company in Dublin.

Since lockdown many have returned to their own countries on a short term basis while C19 continues.

These companies are looking to offer these guys the options to WFH long term and WFH means being in another country. Also some employees are looking for this option themselves, and have asked the company if its possible

The company is now looking to change their staffs wage based on the country they now live in and not based on a wage for them based in Dublin or the role itself

So
Employee A works for ( google/FB/Twitter etc) in Dublin on €60,000
Employee A moves back to Poland, ( insert any other country here) their salary drops to €45,000 ( insert variable other amount here)


Mostly based on cost of living in the related country.
Lower cost of living = lower wage for the same job
Higher cost of living, your told the job is Dublin based

May not affect you, but this is taking place in certain companies

I don't doubt this.

This issue isn't how much tax you are going to pay (in whatever country you decide to live in) as that is your issue.

The issue is the tax/legal implications for the firm you work for. If this isn't already in place, it is a lot of hassle that not many firms are prepared to set up. If it benefited them, it would be pretty standard. It really isn't due to the complexities of doing it.

StupidLikeAFox

Most people i know who have been working from home have been told that post covid it will be a hybrid approach, a split between wfh and office.

Theres no harm in asking your manager if the company has thought about what work will look like post covid and go from there. The senior management should be thinking about this really

GreeBo

kathleen37 wrote: »

I don't doubt this.

This issue isn't how much tax you are going to pay (in whatever country you decide to live in) as that is your issue.

The issue is the tax/legal implications for the firm you work for. If this isn't already in place, it is a lot of hassle that not many firms are prepared to set up. If it benefited them, it would be pretty standard. It really isn't due to the complexities of doing it.

It's not even about the hassle, it's about the crap load of cash they would be liable to pay in taxes!

Greenlights16

knipex wrote: »

But they work in the south.

The OP will be working in NI for a company in the South. That is a very different situation, different employment laws, public holidays, H&S etc etc.

No I’m fully intending on coming down 2 days per week. Some weeks maybe more as I’ll be visiting the in laws at the weekends in ROI. Will definitely not be working 100% in NI month to month.

Also have an ROI address which can be used to my advantage

Greenlights16

Happy enough to have thread closed moderators.

Thanks for all replies, some very good discussion and viewpoints.

Took the gamble and asked a very senior member in the firm who I have a good day to day relationship with (above or on same level as my line manager) .

He said to say nothing to my line manager and don’t worry as there’s plenty like me. He’s recently moved home to west of Ireland and doesn’t intend coming to the head office any more than twice per month for 1/2 days.

“Just keep the head down and keep working hard “ great relief.

Will tidy up things with HR and keep them right, change of address etc.

Thanks all.

Dial Hard

I think you and the person you spoke to are missing the giant, glaring point - he's still in this jurisdiction. You won't be.

Greenlights16

I’m aware of that. But I’ll have more than enough evidence and proof to prove I was in the republic for more than 183 days per year. For all HMRC needs to know I reside in NI only at the weekends and stay in Dublin for work the rest of the week.

No longer worried about the matter