Testing Megathread Part 4 - See OP for threadbans

Martina1991

Martina1991 wrote: »

I didn't say they weren't. If Germany have reviewed and approved a test for that use then fine.

They are not all the same. Every manufacturer differs. You can't say just because Germany are using one brand on the public that Ireland should use this one from Lidl and it will perform the same.

Are people living in Ireland genetically dissimilar to those living in Germany. You and the CMO seem to think so.

drunkmonkey

Get over the lidl thing these have been widely available to businesses for a long time. Getting them out cheaply to the general public is the right thing to do. Lidl should be commended. I'm glad they're sticking to their Guns and ignoring the CMO.

https://twitter.com/lidl_ireland/status/1390765363684651019?s=20

Martina1991

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Have you anything to back up your statement that people with no symptoms and pass a simple swab in the nose antigen test are capable of infecting someone. You must have seen as you claimed it, what is the risk of infection from these healthy people?

The CMO is wrong and it's not the first time he's not been forthcoming with the truth.

https://www.who.int/vietnam/news/detail/14-07-2020-q-a-how-is-covid-19-transmitted
distance can’t be guaranteed, help to break chains of transmission.
Can people without symptoms transmit the virus?
Yes, infected people can transmit the virus both when they have symptoms and when they don’t have symptoms. This is why it is important that all people who are infected are identified by testing, isolated, and, depending on the severity of their disease, receive medical care. Even people confirmed to have COVID-19 but who do not have symptoms should be isolated to limit their contact with others. These measures break chains of transmission.

https://www.advisory.com/en/daily-briefing/2020/08/10/asymptomatic
"Around 30% of patients who tested positive for the new coronavirus were asymptomatic, but they still carried just as much of the virus as symptomatic patients —and for nearly as long—according to a new study that experts say provides the first scientific evidence of asymptomatic transmission of the pathogen.
How many Covid-19 patients have no symptoms? More than you might think."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.uchealth.org/today/the-truth-about-asymptomatic-spread-of-covid-19/?amp
Up to 50% of people who had COVID-19 in Iceland were asymptomatic after health officials did broad lab testing of the population there.
Nearly 40% of children ages 6 to 13 tested positive for COVID-19, but were asymptomatic, according to just published research from the Duke University BRAVE Kids study. While the children had no symptoms of COVID-19, they had the same viral load of SARS-CoV-2 in their nasal areas, meaning that asymptomatic children had the same capacity to spread the virus compared to others who had symptoms of COVID-19.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/20-percent-of-people-with-covid-19-are-asymptomatic-but-can-spread-the-disease
20% of Coronavirus Infections Are Asymptomatic but Still Contagious

Martina1991

JMNolan wrote: »

Did you even read your own links? They confirm that the tests do exactly what they purport to do. You're up there with Trump when it comes to nonsense.

Those links say these tests perform poorly on people with no symptoms. It is people with no symptoms that want to use these tests.

drunkmonkey

Martina1991 wrote: »

20% of Coronavirus Infections Are Asymptomatic but Still Contagious

If they're contagious there is a relatively good chance an antigen test will pick up the virus. Nothing you linked to there says otherwise.
Your still missing it, people who take these antigen tests could be asymptomatic their just adding an extra layer of protection for others.

Pointless to keep dancing with you I know it's pcr or nothing in your mind. This will blow up during the week, Tony is wrong and has deliberately misled people, there's only so many times someone can be allowed to get away with it.

Martina1991

It appears your issue is about Tony Holohan rather than nphets findings that they are not fit for use for mass testing.

These tests can't tell how infectious the person is.
They can only detect what viral material is on the swab

The accuracy of the result is only as good as the sample.
So any assumption of contaguiusnes or infectiousness a person makes on themselves is wrong because you can't measure that.

drunkmonkey

Martina1991 wrote: »

These tests can't tell how infectious the person is.
They can only detect what viral material is on the swab

More codology, it doesn't matter one bit how infectious someone is as long at it registered they are.

Now your PCR test, I haven't seen anyone being told how infectious they are or even if it was the infection they had up 3mts ago the pcr test is after picking up.

https://ijponline.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13052-021-01016-5

I can throw medical studies around too.
This one points out that there was no major difference between level of asymptomatic infection in Children and Adults and it references research which suggests that infected children are less contagious...but...
if they have the viral load then the antigen test has an extremely high likelyhood of indicating that they are infected and carrying out a Antigen test on all children daily or weekly as is the practice recommended by other health ministries roots out these infected individuals because there would never have been an reason to justify sending them for an expensive PCR test.
If you rely on PCR tests then you are basically forcing the schools to stay closed because PCR tests for hundreds of thousands of children can't be carried out daily.

normanoffside

I'm 100% certain that Mina has more qualifications to speak on this matter then the entire board of NPHET combined.

https://twitter.com/michaelmina_lab/status/1391228033500160003

drunkmonkey

Martina1991 wrote: »

It appears your issue is about Tony Holohan rather than nphets findings that they are not fit for use for mass testing.

The home of the €9 meal, I wouldn't trust them as far as I'd thrown them.
Don't use antigen tests they're bad, ya um ok Tony.

Turtwig

Deleted User wrote: »

if they have the viral load then the antigen test has an extremely high likelyhood of indicating that they are infected and carrying out a Antigen test on all children daily or weekly as is the practice recommended by other health ministries roots out these infected individuals because there would never have been an reason to justify sending them for an expensive PCR test.
.

Not really relevant though.

I don't think our authorities here oppose antigen testing being used in a serialised repeatable context. Antigens testing does have its uses. Nobody is saying it doesn't. What we are saying is that in the context of the ordinary untrained person without symptoms doing a test on themselves is a waste of money and in some circumstances may even pose a risk to the wider public if that individual falsely assumes the test means they are covid free.

Turtwig

Turtwig wrote: »

Not really relevant though.

I don't think our authorities here oppose antigen testing using in a serialised context. Antigens testing does have its uses. Nobody is saying it doesn't. What we are saying is that in the context of the ordinary untrained person without symptoms doing a test on themselves is a waste of money and in some circumstances may even pose a risk to the wider public if that individual falsely assumes the test means they are covid free.

You have drunk a few litres of the CMO's kool-aid.
The use of antigen testing to re-open is fiercely rejected by the CMO. Other Countries have gone another direction with better results.

normanoffside

Deleted User wrote: »

You have drunk a few litres of the CMO's kool-aid.
The use of antigen testing to re-open is fiercely rejected by the CMO. Other Countries have gone another direction with better results.

It's because they don't want us to reopen.

Martina1991

drunkmonkey wrote: »

More codology, it doesn't matter one bit how infectious someone is as long at it registered they are.

Now your PCR test, I haven't seen anyone being told how infectious they are or even if it was the infection they had up 3mts ago the pcr test is after picking up.

and the test will only register they are infected if the swab is taken properly.
You don't understand the importance of sample integrity.

No one is told how infectious they are. If their swab has yielded a strong positve result below a certain ct then they are infected. A positive result is confirmation they are infected.

Martina1991

Deleted User wrote: »

https://ijponline.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13052-021-01016-5

I can throw medical studies around too.
This one points out that there was no major difference between level of asymptomatic infection in Children and Adults and it references research which suggests that infected children are less contagious...but...
if they have the viral load then the antigen test has an extremely high likelyhood of indicating that they are infected and carrying out a Antigen test on all children daily or weekly as is the practice recommended by other health ministries roots out these infected individuals because there would never have been an reason to justify sending them for an expensive PCR test.
If you rely on PCR tests then you are basically forcing the schools to stay closed because PCR tests for hundreds of thousands of children can't be carried out daily.

The schools are open anyway and will remain open.
Your point is irrelevant

Turtwig

Deleted User wrote: »

You have drunk a few litres of the CMO's kool-aid.
The use of antigen testing to re-open is fiercely rejected by the CMO. Other Countries have gone another direction with better results.

Ok if you're going to post crap like kool aid and the like I'm not going to bother.
Watch the briefing, reading the letters the CMO actually sends the Minister of Health. HIQAs reports. We don't oppose antigen testing here either. I suspect if you were to probe these authorities in other countries you might find they have the same reservations.

The CMO rejected them being used by a private individual. He didn't reject their use in schools or colleges. The feasibility of their uses in those contexts in Ireland is planning to be trialled.

Martina1991

Martina1991 wrote: »

You don't understand the importance of sample integrity.

The Health Ministries of other Countries do understand and still encourage the use of Antigen tests which meet their measures of effectivity.
You spread Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt with every single post.

Turtwig

Turtwig wrote: »

Ok if you're going to post crap like kool aid and the like I'm not going to bother.
Watch the briefing, reading the letters the CMO actually sends the Minister of Health. HIQAs reports. We don't oppose antigen testing here either. I suspect if you were to probe these authorities in other countries you might find they have the same reservations.

The CMO rejected them being used by a private individual. He didn't reject their use in schools or colleges. The feasibility of their uses in those contexts in Ireland is planning to be trialled.

If you are not going to bother following the links from other Health Ministries which I provided on thread then you are in no position to criticise me.
CMO are not following the strategies employed by other Nations who are enjoying greater success in fighting the Pandemic.
The CMO has lost the confidence of reasonable impartial observers.

drunkmonkey

Martina1991 wrote: »

and the test will only register they are infected if the swab is taken properly.
You don't understand the importance of sample integrity.

No one is told how infectious they are. If their swab has yielded a strong positve result below a certain ct then they are infected. A positive result is confirmation they are infected.

Ah will you stop, it's easy follow the instructions. It doesn't require HSE involvement is the real issue.

Professor Nolan has possibly sealed the faith of NPHET with his Snake Oil comment which I can only assume you fully agree with it.

Stay tuned, we may see NPHET implode over this..

Martina1991

normanoffside wrote: »

It's because they don't want us to reopen.

Our incidence per 100,000 is 65.

There will be less than 100 people in hospital with covid by the end of the week.

Over 200,000 vaccines given a week.

We are reopening.

normanoffside

Martina1991 wrote: »

Our incidence per 100,000 is 65.

There will be less than 100 people in hospital with covid by the end of the week.

Over 200,000 vaccines given a week.

We are reopening.

As we reopen do you think we should go for a PCR test before we go shopping or over to a friend's house for a BBQ?

Martina1991

normanoffside wrote: »

As we reopen do you think we should go for a PCR test before we go shopping or over to a friend's house for a BBQ?

No. We won't need to. Falling incidence rates, very few in hospital, mass vaccination. 15 people are allowed outside from tomorrow so yes people can have their bbq.

Vaccinated people can visit who they want. We won't need antigen tests to do normal things. We can just do them without restriction.

Mass gatherings like concerts and matches will be some of the last to return at capacity but when everyone who wants a vaccine has got one, testing will likely be based in hospitals and community testing rolled back with reduced demand.

normanoffside

Martina1991 wrote: »

No. We won't need to. Falling incidence rates, very few in hospital, mass vaccination. 15 people are allowed outside from tomorrow so yes people can have their bbq.

We won't need antigen tests to do normal things. We can just do them without restriction.

Grand, so you're against people taking an extra safety measure.

drunkmonkey

Ok Martina if we can do all these social things as the incidence rate is so low are we also in a position to ditch the masks and distancing as I see antigen tests around until we've the rate that low.

Martina1991

Vaccinated people can meet indoors without masks. So yes, people won't need to take an antigen test if they're vaccinated and meeting vaccinated people.

I can see them still being used in hospitals for another while yet

Chuzzle7

Somebody mentioned that this was like last year and their view on masks. I think they need to communicate more than what they did with masks. It was confusing telling us that masks were of no benefit and then making them mandatory and making them mandatory with very little communication other than new evidence.

They need to hammer home that these tests are not 100% and you have to presume you have the virus and continue to follow the restrictions and if you feel in any way off form that these tests should not be relied on. But they seem to be failing at that as well.

LostinKildare

Holohan is badly mishandling this IMO.

Is there any evidence that the people who received negative results from the millions of PCR tests administered in Ireland decided they were in the clear and threw caution to the wind, ditching masks, social distancing, etc? I haven't heard it. People were clearly warned that no test is fully accurate, and that the negative represents only a snaphot in time and you must continue all precautions because you could catch it any time after that test, and then might spread it. That message seems to have been successful. Isn't all that true of the antigen test, with the proviso that this test is even less accurate than the PCR test? That should be the message.

If the Lidl test is 98% accurate, great. If it's only 58% accurate with asymptomatic persons, well that's a non-insignificant number of cases that probably wouldn't have been detected otherwise.

Funeral is tomorrow. We will be following all guidelines --- 50 people max (from tomorrow), masks, distancing as much as possible. Six pallbearers will carry the coffin, so although they will be masked, they can't distance. Only one is fully vaccinated; the others feel healthy but they will take a rapid antigen test beforehand. If one tests positive, he will stay home and book a PCR test. Tell me why this is a bad thing.

normanoffside

LostinKildare wrote: »

Six pallbearers will carry the coffin, so although they will be masked, they can't distance. Only one is fully vaccinated; the others feel healthy but they will take a rapid antigen test beforehand. If one tests positive, he will stay home and book a PCR test. Tell me why this is a bad thing.

It's a mystery to me. NPHET are either extremely thick or else there is something more sinister going on.

Lumen

normanoffside wrote: »

It's a mystery to me. NPHET are either extremely thick or else there is something more sinister going on.

Or you're wrong and they're right. I dunno, it's possible surely?

Chuzzle7

normanoffside wrote: »

It's a mystery to me. NPHET are either extremely thick or else there is something more sinister going on.

Well people cannot be trusted to do the right thing. We know that already. Using these tests won't be any different and you will have people thinking they are free from covid with a negative result and will do whatever they want.