Vaccine Megathread - See OP for threadbans

duffman13

1huge1 wrote: »

Seems to me that we don't have the supply yet to start using Pharmacies seeing as how the MVCs are nowhere near capacity yet?

Open to correction on that.

Pretty much this, plus AZ and J&J are really more suited to pharmacies. To be perfectly honest, IT infrastructure of the HSE has also slowed down pharmacy participation.

HSE have been stringing it along for months that pharmacies will play "a big part" in the roll out but I don't see it at this stage

Also to someone else who mentioned the gravy train, it's 60 euro total for two doses of AZ according to the deal agreed with the HSE and the majority of pharmacies who have applied have committed to 100 per week. You would need a locum pharmacist 2 days, an observer (technician) and someone doing data entry. The money isn't bad but the GPs are the ones cleaning up to be fair. Logistically it's fair simpler to do multiple vaccines in surgery than a pharmacy due to the required wait time of 15 mins

Pharmacy could administer 100,000 easily a week so surprised not to see them involved at some point but looking increasingly likely.

abff

Apologies if this has already been asked and answered, but 428 pages is a lot of posts to search!

I got my first AZ dose a couple of weeks ago and my wife got hers 5 days later. We have flights booked at end July, and there's talk of having a system whereby people will be allowed to travel within the EU provided they are fully vaccinated more than 14 days prior to the date of travel.

The leaflet we got when we were vaccinated says that the second dose will be given at least 12 weeks after the first dose. Under the proposed system outlined above, this would allow me to travel at end July if my second dose is within 12 weeks and 2 days of my first dose, but it would come a couple of days too late for my wife.

The guidance they have in the UK for the AZ vaccine recommends that the second dose is given between 4 and 12 weeks after the first. This appears to conflict directly with the approach being taken in Ireland and I'm just wondering if anyone knows the background to this difference in interpretation.

I appreciate that the "rules" around foreign travel may well change between now and end July, but I would be most grateful for any light anyone could shed on this difference in approach between ourselves and the UK.

seamus

abff wrote: »

I would be most grateful for any light anyone could shed on this difference in approach between ourselves and the UK.

It's to do with the clot risk. The initial data suggests that the closer the two doses are together, the higher the risk of developing this (really rare) clotting disorder. Our health teams have decided that a 12-week interval is preferable. The UK has for the most part ignored the clotting issue because they're heavily reliant on AZ (and the risk is very small).

In terms of vaccine greenlighting, it seems likely that the whole EU will take the approach of considering someone to be "fully" vaccinated 4 weeks after their first AZ dose.

As you say, a lot will change in terms of travel between now and then. I would work on the presumption that you will be able to fly without quarantine at either end.

Turtwig

In the context of children, covid and vaccinations. There will be a very small % of children who get covid that will experience quality of life issues from the disease. The risk a parent has to weigh up is the likelihood of adverse covid vs adverse vaccination. The safety profile for the vaccines will be rigorously monitored. If the profile for younger children stays inline with that currently known of adolescents then the risk benefit of the MRNA vaccines will strongly be in the child's favour.

That's before you consider the societal benefits.

Turtwig

seamus wrote: »

It's to do with the clot risk. The initial data suggests that the closer the two doses are together, the higher the risk of developing this (really rare) clotting disorder.

Where did you get this from?

Widescreen

UK Vaccine minister was on BBC1 breakfast this morning at 7.30 commenting on the below.

Said they are doing studies relating to when a 3rd dose of the vaccine will be administered to over 50's, speculation was September but that is not defined yet.

The study will enable them to decide on which type of vaccine this cohort of people will get for a third dose.

He said, someone who had Pfizer could get an AZ 3rd dose, someone who had AZ could get Pfizer as 3rd dose. And so on, basically mix and match depending on the results of the study. Part of the process of this becoming an annual "flu" shot it seems.

is_that_so

duffman13 wrote: »

Pretty much this, plus AZ and J&J are really more suited to pharmacies. To be perfectly honest, IT infrastructure of the HSE has also slowed down pharmacy participation.

HSE have been stringing it along for months that pharmacies will play "a big part" in the roll out but I don't see it at this stage

Also to someone else who mentioned the gravy train, it's 60 euro total for two doses of AZ according to the deal agreed with the HSE and the majority of pharmacies who have applied have committed to 100 per week. You would need a locum pharmacist 2 days, an observer (technician) and someone doing data entry. The money isn't bad but the GPs are the ones cleaning up to be fair. Logistically it's fair simpler to do multiple vaccines in surgery than a pharmacy due to the required wait time of 15 mins

Pharmacy could administer 100,000 easily a week so surprised not to see them involved at some point but looking increasingly likely.

85K between GPs and pharmacies according to Leo. There has been no stringing along. Groups 1-7 are HSE and GP administered and pharmacies could not participate in those. Their problem is that they are not really suitable locations for this type of rapid mass vaccination approach. They do great work on flu' jabs because people just show up and there is no managed booking system.
Where you would expect them to play a part is when we get into the much larger groups and anything the MVCs can't do quickly being redirected. That will probably be in June and the under 50s.

seamus

Turtwig wrote: »

Where did you get this from?

The back of my head, apparently

I might be wrong, I thought I had read that somewhere, but I can't find it now.

Looking into it, NIAC's given reason is actually to delay the second dose until there is better data on the risks.

revelman

seamus wrote: »

It's to do with the clot risk. The initial data suggests that the closer the two doses are together, the higher the risk of developing this (really rare) clotting disorder. Our health teams have decided that a 12-week interval is preferable. The UK has for the most part ignored the clotting issue because they're heavily reliant on AZ (and the risk is very small).

In terms of vaccine greenlighting, it seems likely that the whole EU will take the approach of considering someone to be "fully" vaccinated 4 weeks after their first AZ dose.

As you say, a lot will change in terms of travel between now and then. I would work on the presumption that you will be able to fly without quarantine at either end.

Sorry, but this is incorrect. The interval between doses has nothing to do with clot risk.

The manufacturer recommends an interval of 4-12 weeks. In the midst of rising cases some months ago, the U.K. decided to go with 12 weeks and preliminary studies suggest that the this is the optimal interval. Several weeks later, we then followed the U.K. and went with a 12 week interval.

JPup

seamus wrote: »

The back of my head, apparently

I might be wrong, I thought I had read that somewhere, but I can't find it now.

Looking into it, NIAC's given reason is actually to delay the second dose until there is better data on the risks.

The UK is leaving a 12 week gap between AZ doses also as far as I know, but nothing to do with clotting risk. That's just the recommended gap from the manufacturer and it's been shown in the trials and real world data to provide good immunity.

As far as flying in July with only one dose, who knows? I'd say there is a good chance you will be ok and won't have to quarantine but no-one can say for sure yet. The situation is very much in flux. Tourism reliant countries in Southern Europe are likely to be more lax about such matters if a pan-European approach hasn't been agreed by then.

Strazdas

Widescreen wrote: »

UK Vaccine minister was on BBC1 breakfast this morning at 7.30 commenting on the below.

Said they are doing studies relating to when a 3rd dose of the vaccine will be administered to over 50's, speculation was September but that is not defined yet.

The study will enable them to decide on which type of vaccine this cohort of people will get for a third dose.

He said, someone who had Pfizer could get an AZ 3rd dose, someone who had AZ could get Pfizer as 3rd dose. And so on, basically mix and match depending on the results of the study. Part of the process of this becoming an annual "flu" shot it seems.

The news yesterday was that Ireland has pre-ordered 5m Pfizer doses for 2022. It would appear from that that the plan is to give everyone in the country a Pfizer dose as a booster shot, irrespective of what earlier vaccine they had.

Lumen

seamus wrote: »

I don't know what the situation in Germany is like, but 19% of our doses arrived last week.

So in context, the absolute maximum that we *could* have administered up to Sunday was 81% of those delivered because the other 19% had only just arrived in the country.

Absolutely we should we be working on ways to speed up the time from arrival in the country to injection into arms, but the speed we're moving at is still insane.

Especially given the arrival of 400,000 doses last week, one would hope we're going to see a massive week this week.

(Source: https://twitter.com/FergalBowers/status/1389944874598912012/photo/1)

That's not quite true. The 191,800 Pfizer doses arrived on Wednesday and the 165,000 AZ doses arrived on Friday. Presumably there was some kind of advance notification of these arriving, they didn't just turn up at Paul Reid's house in Keith from DPD's van.

Adding 30k/day average administrations since those deliveries on to the currently reported half a million of stock, we must have had around 600k doses in storage last Friday. That seems excessive.

Anyway, I'm only moaning.

OwlsZat

bladespin wrote: »

Saw an article today questioning why pharmacies (with trained staff) aren't already administering vaccines, guessing once the general population point is reached things will really accelerate.

In the UK a vaccine is administered for £11. In Ireland our GPs are getting €60.

How there is that level of difference only AC12 could figure out. Pharmacists were staggeringly in line to get even more...

Lumen

OwlsZat wrote: »

In the UK a vaccine is administered for £11. In Ireland our GPs are getting €60.

How there is that level of difference only AC12 could figure out. Pharmacists were staggeringly were in line to get even more...

Source?

The last time I looked at this the UK GPs were being paid per dose whereas the Irish costs were per patient (2 doses).

Necro

Lumen wrote: »

Source?

The last time I looked at this the UK GPs were being paid per dose whereas the Irish costs were per patient (2 doses).

Well they are sort of being paid per dose here, €25 and €10 admin for first dose then €25 for the second to total the 60.

OwlsZat

Lumen wrote: »

Source?

The last time I looked at this the UK GPs were being paid per dose whereas the Irish costs were per patient (2 doses).

Your right, the Irish GPs looks like €35 euro a jab, UK £12.58 or €14.58. So Irish GPs are paid over twice as much as those in the UK.

I know one person who has been vaccinating others and they will buy a new car when they are finished vaccinating. Gave away a 20k car to their daughter in anticipation . :cool:

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/gps-set-make-2500-day-23348862

https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/coronavirus/gps-to-be-paid-12-85-per-jab-as-details-set-out-for-covid-vaccination-campaign/

Apogee

Latest delivery numbers:
https://twitter.com/FergalBowers/status/1389944874598912012

Deeper Blue

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-05-04/world-s-most-vaccinated-nation-reintroduces-curbs-as-cases-surge

Most vaccinated nation Seychelles goes back to lockdown, 59% Chinese vaccine 41% Oxford vaccine used

Not good

Until this happens in a country that's primarily using AZ/Pfizer/Moderna I'm not worried.

Turtwig

josip wrote: »

Sinopharm is widely acknowledged to have low efficiency.

By whom?
Trial data is lacking I'll agree there. Haven't seen any claims of lower efficacy.

Lumen

Deeper Blue wrote: »

Until this happens in a country that's primarily using AZ/Pfizer/Moderna I'm not worried.

Yeah, they've only 25% of the population vaccinated with AZ. If Sinopharm is half as effective then it'd be the equivalent of when the UK had about 45% done, at which stage they were still in lockdown.

50-55% vaccinated with at least one dose followed by careful re-opening seems to be the proven strategy.

Which for us is probably end of June, although I've lost track of the estimates.

revelman

The PR begins

I think this is a good indicator that those in their forties will be getting J&J in June

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/varadkar-suggests-one-dose-j-j-vaccine-would-be-popular-with-over-40s-1.4556162?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2Fvaradkar-suggests-one-dose-j-j-vaccine-would-be-popular-with-over-40s-1.4556162

revelman

Turtwig wrote: »

By whom?
Trial data is lacking I'll agree there. Haven't seen any claims of lower efficacy.

I remember reading that the lead Chinese scientist admitted this in a rare moment of candour.

josip

Turtwig wrote: »

By whom?
Trial data is lacking I'll agree there. Haven't seen any claims of lower efficacy.

Even acknowledged by the Chinese.
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/12/china/china-vaccine-efficacy-intl-hnk/index.html

Van.Bosch

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-05-04/world-s-most-vaccinated-nation-reintroduces-curbs-as-cases-surge

Most vaccinated nation Seychelles goes back to lockdown, 59% Chinese vaccine 41% Oxford vaccine used

Not good

It actually is good. 2 thirds of cases are in the unvaccinated, the third who got it and we’re vaccinated ties in with the 50% efficacy on the Chinese vaccine as per John Burn Murdoch at the FT.

So without the vaccine it likely would be a lot worse.

Strazdas

revelman wrote: »

The PR begins

I think this is a good indicator that those in their forties will be getting J&J in June

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/varadkar-suggests-one-dose-j-j-vaccine-would-be-popular-with-over-40s-1.4556162?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2Fvaradkar-suggests-one-dose-j-j-vaccine-would-be-popular-with-over-40s-1.4556162

Yes, people have been assuming that the NIAC advice means it is impossible for anyone under 50 to receive J & J but that was never the case. It was always going to come into play if huge numbers of people are waiting to be vaccinated and they have spare doses ready to go.

podgeandrodge

abff wrote: »

Apologies if this has already been asked and answered, but 428 pages is a lot of posts to search!

I got my first AZ dose a couple of weeks ago and my wife got hers 5 days later. We have flights booked at end July, and there's talk of having a system whereby people will be allowed to travel within the EU provided they are fully vaccinated more than 14 days prior to the date of travel.

The leaflet we got when we were vaccinated says that the second dose will be given at least 12 weeks after the first dose. Under the proposed system outlined above, this would allow me to travel at end July if my second dose is within 12 weeks and 2 days of my first dose, but it would come a couple of days too late for my wife.

The guidance they have in the UK for the AZ vaccine recommends that the second dose is given between 4 and 12 weeks after the first. This appears to conflict directly with the approach being taken in Ireland and I'm just wondering if anyone knows the background to this difference in interpretation.

I appreciate that the "rules" around foreign travel may well change between now and end July, but I would be most grateful for any light anyone could shed on this difference in approach between ourselves and the UK.

that's an interesting one alright. Reposting in case anyone has a better answer, but it shows the "disadvantage" of Astra for those hoping for an early departure out of here. Hopefully 1 shot will suffice for travel.

Van.Bosch

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

The article doesn’t say that, Where did you gather this out of interest?

Edit oh ok FT thanks

Yeah - John burn murdoch has a good analysis on Twitter.

Turtwig

The scientist said it wasn't that high. He didn't say it was terrible or low, or average. Posters here seem to be dismissing it as a crap vaccine. Am I wrong here?

That 50% figure is dubious in similar ways to an the 10% AZ. Both have to be taken with a pinch of salt. Dosing interval in the Brazil study was two weeks. Even then, none of the participants who received the vaccine were hospitalised with severe covid. In Chile, UAE and Turkey the vaccine efficacy % was much higher.

Other than a quote by someone which could mean all manner of things what evidence is there both for and against the usage of the vaccine?

revelman

podgeandrodge wrote: »

that's an interesting one alright. Reposting in case anyone has a better answer, but it shows the "disadvantage" of Astra for those hoping for an early departure out of here. Hopefully 1 shot will suffice for travel.

The second AZ shot is effectively a booster. The real work is done by the first shot. Real world data shows that this booster is most effective 12 weeks from first dose, rather than 4 weeks. The U.K. has been sticking to 12 weeks for months.

JDD

revelman wrote: »

The PR begins

I think this is a good indicator that those in their forties will be getting J&J in June

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/varadkar-suggests-one-dose-j-j-vaccine-would-be-popular-with-over-40s-1.4556162?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2Fvaradkar-suggests-one-dose-j-j-vaccine-would-be-popular-with-over-40s-1.4556162

Deadly, I'm in the 40-50 category. I'd take the J&J tomorrow, no bother. One and done. I'll be on my holibobs with my vaccine cert in July. :cool: