Vaccine Megathread - See OP for threadbans

Van.Bosch

seamus wrote: »

I feel like even at this stage if they straight-up paused vaccinations on cohort 7, there'd be less stress and worry and vulnerable people would get vaccinated more quickly.

Cohort 7 was done via GPs I imagine as you need the GP to define which patients are in that group. If GPs don’t want to do it, it sounds like it’s the decision process they want out of due to pressure, then the whole thing doesn’t really work.

I suspect C4 will be the new C2 where it just grows and grows.

is_that_so

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Cohort 7 was done via GPs I imagine as you need the GP to define which patients are in that group. If GPs don’t want to do it, it sounds like it’s the decision process they want out of due to pressure, then the whole thing doesn’t really work.

I suspect C4 will be the new C2 where it just grows and grows.

If some of these groups are redirected into the portal that should be less of a problem. Anyone over 50 should be looking to do that anyway, just in case.

ShineOn7

ShineOn7 wrote: »

There were 242 cases of blood clots out of how many AZ vaccinations in the UK?

That way we can work out the %

I don't think there's any point of working out the death via AZ percentages because a blood clot in itself can be life changing

It's 10.5 per million based on the latest data. That's overall, the risk is higher for younger age groups.

Yes it's low odds, but the point is that there are alternative vaccines available that don't carry this risk.

The UK JCVI (their equivalent of NIAC) is holding a briefing at noon where they are expected to announce that the age cut off for AZ will increase to 40.

This isn't happening for no reason.

Badly Drunk Boy

TimberTones wrote: »

I feel like a sucker waiting for my turn when others, typical Ireland, get it through a close connection.

Sounds like you're just a bit jealous that you don't know the right people who can give you the vaccine out of turn...

PhilOssophy

Flying Fox wrote: »

You should have a read of the UK update from yesterday, specifically the part in Section 3 on thrombo-embolic events with concurrent low platelets:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting

Those 49 deaths are linked to the vaccine.

The fatality rate for these CVST clots is still around 20%. There is some treatment, which is why 80% survive, but it's not the case that someone who gets this type of clotting can be guaranteed a quick cure. There's still a high chance of death or life changing injury.

Luke O'Neill seems to be coming from a position of benefits outweighing risks overall (which is true for the population as a whole, if not on an individual level). He seems to be playing down this issue in order to avoid spooking people, but he's being far too dismissive IMO.

The data is out there for anyone who wants to read up further about the risks.

Interesting. While 49 deaths is significant, is there any further break-down of the ages of these deaths? Of course a vaccine shouldn't be killing anybody but car accidents shouldn't either and the statistics are still in the 1 in 461k if they've administered 22.6m doses which is probably comparable to these equally rare events.

I am by no means trivialising the death of anybody but searching for a 0% death rate for anything of this magnitude is probably expecting too much. At the moment, on that basis the death rate is 0.0002%.

Van.Bosch

is_that_so wrote: »

If some of these groups are redirected into the portal that should be less of a problem. Anyone over 50 should be looking to do that anyway, just in case.

Yes but how do you decide who under 50 is C7?

Zipppy

Flying Fox wrote: »

You should have a read of the UK update from yesterday, specifically the part in Section 3 on thrombo-embolic events with concurrent low platelets:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting

Those 49 deaths are linked to the vaccine.

The fatality rate for these CVST clots is still around 20%. There is some treatment, which is why 80% survive, but it's not the case that someone who gets this type of clotting can be guaranteed a quick cure. There's still a high chance of death or life changing injury.

Luke O'Neill seems to be coming from a position of benefits outweighing risks overall (which is true for the population as a whole, if not on an individual level). He seems to be playing down this issue in order to avoid spooking people, but he's being far too dismissive IMO.

The data is out there for anyone who wants to read up further about the risks.

Interesting report!

I see age cohort 50-59 had more deaths that other age groups...

Lumen

One would hope that once the dust has settled, some serious questions would be asked about how Ireland has managed to have such a fragmented healthcare system in a country of only 5 million people.

GPs using paper-based records is just pitiful in 2021. It's not like they don't have the time for data entry; every GP surgery I've been into in Ireland has a receptionist who spends most of the day doing fck all despite protestations to the contrary.

iamwhoiam

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Yes but how do you decide who under 50 is C7?

by this from HSE

Cancer
Haematological - within 1 year.

Haematological - within 1 - 5 years.

Non-haematological - within 1 year.

All other cancers on non-hormonal treatment.

Chronic heart (and vascular) disease
Chronic heart disease, for example: heart failure, hypertensive cardiac disease.

Chronic kidney disease
Chronic kidney disease with eGFR <30ml/min.

Chronic liver disease
Chronic liver disease, for example: cirrhosis or fibrosis.

Chronic neurological disease or condition
Chronic neurological disease or condition significantly compromising respiratory function and/or the ability to clear secretions, for example: Parkinson's disease, cerebral palsy.

Chronic respiratory disease
Other chronic respiratory disease, for example: stable cystic fibrosis, severe asthma (continuous or repeated use of systemic corticosteroids), moderate COPD.

Diabetes
All other diabetes (Type 1 and 2).

Immunocompromised
Immunocompromise due to disease or treatment, for example: high dose systemic steroids (as defined in Immunisation Guidelines for Ireland Chapter 3), persons living with HIV.

Inherited metabolic diseases*
Disorders of intermediary metabolism not fulfilling criteria for very high risk.

Intellectual disability*
Intellectual disability*** excluding Down Syndrome.

Obesity

Marcusm

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Yes but how do you decide who under 50 is C7?

By reference to the vaccine criteria set out by the HSE! I hve copied them below. Many are conditions which involve regular GP or consultant service. Others such as obesity may not involve any regular healthcare in which case you hve to identify a GP locally who is doing the vaccinating and contact them for a vaccine.



People aged 16-64 who have an underlying condition that puts them at high risk of severe disease and death
Cancer
Haematological - within 1 year.

Haematological - within 1 - 5 years.

Non-haematological - within 1 year.

All other cancers on non-hormonal treatment.

Chronic heart (and vascular) disease
Chronic heart disease, for example: heart failure, hypertensive cardiac disease.

Chronic kidney disease
Chronic kidney disease with eGFR <30ml/min.

Chronic liver disease
Chronic liver disease, for example: cirrhosis or fibrosis.

Chronic neurological disease or condition
Chronic neurological disease or condition significantly compromising respiratory function and/or the ability to clear secretions, for example: Parkinson's disease, cerebral palsy.

Chronic respiratory disease
Other chronic respiratory disease, for example: stable cystic fibrosis, severe asthma (continuous or repeated use of systemic corticosteroids), moderate COPD.

Diabetes
All other diabetes (Type 1 and 2).

Immunocompromised
Immunocompromise due to disease or treatment, for example: high dose systemic steroids (as defined in Immunisation Guidelines for Ireland Chapter 3), persons living with HIV.

Inherited metabolic diseases*
Disorders of intermediary metabolism not fulfilling criteria for very high risk.

Intellectual disability*
Intellectual disability*** excluding Down Syndrome.

Obesity
BMI >35 Kg/m2.

Severe mental illness*
Severe mental illness, for example: schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, severe depression.

*additional or updated medical conditions

** APECED - autoimmune polyendocrinopathy candidiasis ecto- dermal dystrophy

*** WHO definition of intellectual disability as “impairments in adaptive, social, and intellectual functioning (IQ<70), requiring daily support, with onset in the developmental phase (<18 years)”

PhilOssophy

Zipppy wrote: »

Interesting report!

I see age cohort 50-59 had more deaths that other age groups...

Check the rate, not the basic figure. Probably more people in this age group vaccinated than other age groups? So the rate might be even more miniscule.

ShineOn7

Flying Fox wrote: »

It's 10.5 per million based on the latest data. That's overall, the risk is higher for younger age groups.

Yes it's low odds, but the point is that there are alternative vaccines available that don't carry this risk.

I have that as 0.002 % chance of getting a clot with AZ

I thought it was "1 in 100,000" as per the "experts", or am I reading the % wrong?

The UK JCVI (their equivalent of NIAC) is holding a briefing at noon where they are expected to announce that the age cut off for AZ will increase to 40.

This isn't happening for no reason.

Exactly

I simply don't want AZ or J&J, based on Denmark's analysis alone*

Would I take them if they're what's offered? Probably

But reluctantly



* This isn't a cue for the usual "the best vaccine is what's offered to you!!1" regulars on here

AZ and J&J are seeing issues just a few months in, what are the stats with them going to look like a few years in?

Also, AZ are just a messy b@stard of a company in general

Lumen

Badly Drunk Boy wrote: »

Sounds like you're just a bit jealous that you don't know the right people who can give you the vaccine out of turn...

This attitude really pisses me off, people defending corruption because they think they can turn it to their advantage.

is_that_so

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Yes but how do you decide who under 50 is C7?

Unless their GP does it they are probably better off going through the portal.

stephenjmcd

ShineOn7 wrote: »

I have that as 0.002 % chance of getting a clot with AZ

I thought it was "1 in 100,000" as per the "experts", or am I reading the % wrong?




Exactly

I simply don't want AZ or J&J, based on Denmark's analysis alone*

Would I take them if they're what's offered? Probably

But reluctantly



* This isn't a cue for the usual "the best vaccine is what's offered to you!!1" regulars on here

AZ and J&J are seeing issues just a few months in, what are the stats with them going to look like a few years in?

Also, AZ are just a messy b@stard of a company in general

Except that's public health advice, not as if people are making it up now is it ?

Slightly disingenuous to other posters who are going on the public health advice, or as you refer to them "regulars"

odyssey06

Marcusm wrote: »

By reference to the vaccine criteria set out by the HSE! I hve copied them below. Many are conditions which involve regular GP or consultant service. Others such as obesity may not involve any regular healthcare in which case you hve to identify a GP locally who is doing the vaccinating and contact them for a vaccine.

How does this other GP establish you have one of these conditions?
Assuming you can even find one who will vaccinate non patients.

revelman

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Check the rate, not the basic figure. Probably more people in this age group vaccinated than other age groups? So the rate might be even more miniscule.

This has to be the explanation. They are still vaccinating people in their forties in the U.K.

Many elderly people initially got Pfizer a few months ago.

So it is probably the case that age 50-59 have received more AZ than any other group.

I’ve not seen the figures but this is the most likely explanation.

Badly Drunk Boy

Badly Drunk Boy wrote: »

Sounds like you're just a bit jealous that you don't know the right people who can give you the vaccine out of turn...

Sounds like someone is vaccinated to the nines through unconventional ways;).


Honestly, the disruption that COVID has caused and will continue to cause for quiet some time is not laughable, but then again us Irish don't take stuff seriousness publicly. Instead, we lounge around and become the laughing stock of Europe:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:.



By right, anyway carrying out such practices should be named and shamed, and then hit with a nice fine. Discourage the activity and bring back a somewhat fair society, especially during the most disruptive incident since the last recession.

Scuid Mhór

ShineOn7 wrote: »

Re: Cohort 7

https://www2.hse.ie/screening-and-vaccinations/covid-19-vaccine/rollout/#group5




There's nothing in there about what to do when your GP isn't vaccinating Cohort 7 or if they're also not referring this Cohort to another GP

So it's the usual "write to all your Local TDs and make a lot of noise" craic for people in this situation

They need to fix this

Well, is anyone contacting their TDs? If a tree falls in a forest etc.

quokula

Is there any substance to this rumour or is it just made up? Every time there is uproar about this kind of thing, it comes out of the fact that the clinic in question has done a good job in maximising doses from a batch, has some spares at the end of the day, and makes use of them rather than throwing them in the bin as they’d have to otherwise.

Unfortunately, the bad publicity that this kind of pragmatic decision making has produced, has just made it more likely that spare shots get binned now as healthcare workers are concerned about the repercussions for vaccinating extra people, which is such an utterly crazy situation to be in.

Russman

Flying Fox wrote: »

It's 10.5 per million based on the latest data. That's overall, the risk is higher for younger age groups.

Yes it's low odds, but the point is that there are alternative vaccines available that don't carry this risk.

The UK JCVI (their equivalent of NIAC) is holding a briefing at noon where they are expected to announce that the age cut off for AZ will increase to 40.

This isn't happening for no reason.

I agree with this. For younger people, on an individual level, covid isn't the plague. Granted, if let rip it would cause mayhem eventually. If those 49 deaths in the UK translated to, say 5 deaths here - yes its a tiny amount in the bigger picture, but if they could be saved by shuffling the logistics of the rollout, isn't it worth it ? Have the UK even started with their 30s yet ? Would that rate be likely to increase if they went down the ages with AZ ? Presumably so.

Have we reached the point with vaccinations of the older groups that a couple of weeks delay won't mean 5 more covid deaths ? I don't know tbh. Is it even possible to know ?
The last thing we want to do if we're aiming for herd immunity, is to push anyone, young or old, who's maybe a bit hesitant on getting a shot, over the edge into thinking "I'm not taking AZ/J&J, sure I've a better chance with covid......" We need as many as we can to get a vaccine.

Its a fine balance they have to find imo.

PhilOssophy

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Interesting. While 49 deaths is significant, is there any further break-down of the ages of these deaths? Of course a vaccine shouldn't be killing anybody but car accidents shouldn't either and the statistics are still in the 1 in 461k if they've administered 22.6m doses which is probably comparable to these equally rare events.

I am by no means trivialising the death of anybody but searching for a 0% death rate for anything of this magnitude is probably expecting too much. At the moment, on that basis the death rate is 0.0002%.

There is a breakdown for age groupings in blocks of 10 years.

With cars, there often isn't any alternative option if you want to get from A to B. Or if there is, it's slower and has its own level of risk too. With the vaccines, there are alternatives.

revelman

revelman wrote: »

This has to be the explanation. They are still vaccinating people in their forties in the U.K.

Many elderly people initially got Pfizer a few months ago.

So it is probably the case that age 50-59 have received more AZ than any other group.

I’ve not seen the figures but this is the most likely explanation.

Yes, that appears to be the case. Unfortunately there will probably be even more reported in the 40s group once the data catches up for them.

ShineOn7

ShineOn7 wrote: »

I have that as 0.002 % chance of getting a clot with AZ

I thought it was "1 in 100,000" as per the "experts", or am I reading the % wrong?




Exactly

I simply don't want AZ or J&J, based on Denmark's analysis alone*

Would I take them if they're what's offered? Probably

But reluctantly



* This isn't a cue for the usual "the best vaccine is what's offered to you!!1" regulars on here

AZ and J&J are seeing issues just a few months in, what are the stats with them going to look like a few years in?

Also, AZ are just a messy b@stard of a company in general

10.5 per million = 1 in 95,238 or 0.00105%

Skygord

The Guardian Coronavirus blog report the UK now is restricting AZ use to those over 40...

In the UK, all under-40s are to be offered an alternative to the Oxford/AstraZeneca Coronavirus vaccine in a precautionary move.

PA Media reports that the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) and the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) are expected to say there are no new safety concerns after previous data showed the AstraZeneca jab was linked to very rare blood clots.

Previously, the MHRA has said the balance of risk for the AstraZeneca vaccine against Covid is very favourable for older people but “more finely balanced” for younger groups, who do not tend to suffer serious coronavirus illness.

Up to 28 April, the MHRA had received 242 reports of blood clots accompanied by low blood platelet count in the UK, all in people who had AstraZeneca, out of around 28.5m doses given.

These clots occurred in 141 women and 100 men aged from 18 to 93, and the overall case death rate was 20%, with 49 deaths. Six cases have been reported after a second dose of the vaccine.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/may/07/coronavirus-live-news-who-warns-of-risk-of-second-wave-in-africa-india-cases-rise-by-world-record-414188

Main article: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/may/06/choice-of-covid-vaccines-to-be-offered-to-britons-under-40-as-well-as-under-30

Personal view - I'm 50+ and will happily take any of the 4 EMA approved vaccines.

Van.Bosch

Marcusm wrote: »

By reference to the vaccine criteria set out by the HSE! I hve copied them below. Many are conditions which involve regular GP or consultant service. Others such as obesity may not involve any regular healthcare in which case you hve to identify a GP locally who is doing the vaccinating and contact them for a vaccine.



People aged 16-64 who have an underlying condition that puts them at high risk of severe disease and death
Cancer
Haematological - within 1 year.

Haematological - within 1 - 5 years.

Non-haematological - within 1 year.

All other cancers on non-hormonal treatment.

Chronic heart (and vascular) disease
Chronic heart disease, for example: heart failure, hypertensive cardiac disease.

Chronic kidney disease
Chronic kidney disease with eGFR <30ml/min.

Chronic liver disease
Chronic liver disease, for example: cirrhosis or fibrosis.

Chronic neurological disease or condition
Chronic neurological disease or condition significantly compromising respiratory function and/or the ability to clear secretions, for example: Parkinson's disease, cerebral palsy.

Chronic respiratory disease
Other chronic respiratory disease, for example: stable cystic fibrosis, severe asthma (continuous or repeated use of systemic corticosteroids), moderate COPD.

Diabetes
All other diabetes (Type 1 and 2).

Immunocompromised
Immunocompromise due to disease or treatment, for example: high dose systemic steroids (as defined in Immunisation Guidelines for Ireland Chapter 3), persons living with HIV.

Inherited metabolic diseases*
Disorders of intermediary metabolism not fulfilling criteria for very high risk.

Intellectual disability*
Intellectual disability*** excluding Down Syndrome.

Obesity
BMI >35 Kg/m2.

Severe mental illness*
Severe mental illness, for example: schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, severe depression.

*additional or updated medical conditions

** APECED - autoimmune polyendocrinopathy candidiasis ecto- dermal dystrophy

*** WHO definition of intellectual disability as “impairments in adaptive, social, and intellectual functioning (IQ<70), requiring daily support, with onset in the developmental phase (<18 years)”

Yes - that’s all grand but my point was in relation to someone who said C7 should go via the portal, how would you verify someone is in those groups.

stephenjmcd

Skygord wrote: »

The Guardian Coronavirus blog report the UK now is restricting AZ use to those over 40...



https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/may/07/coronavirus-live-news-who-warns-of-risk-of-second-wave-in-africa-india-cases-rise-by-world-record-414188

UK media also reporting that it's a move to try & combat vaccine hesitancy in younger groups, not because of the AZ safety profile.

Do the UK have an issue with vaccine hesitancy ? Can't recall it being flagged up as much of an issue there previously. Certainly not when you compare to France for example

ShineOn7

Deleted User wrote: »

10.5 per million = 1 in 95,238 or 0.00105%

I use this https://percentagecalculator.net/


And the second option on the page ("___ is what percentage of ___")

It's saying 0.0023 %

Based on 242 cases out of 10.5 million doses on AZ in the UK

stephenjmcd

After the good news from Pfizer yesterday around vaccinating athletes and the support teams heading to the Olympics. I've just seen an article on the Japanese vaccine rollout. They have 24 million doses of Pfizer & BioNTech sitting in freezers, they've only just 15% of their deliveries.

Mind boggling stuff

BrianD3

Of course it has happened. When you outsource vital public services to 1000+ private contractors without adequate oversight in a country where cute hoorism is endemic, it's inevitable. All the GPs have to do is "employ" a few family members as receptionists (as is their right) and give them the vaccine. It's none of state's business who they employ.

The conditions for vaccine and other healthcare nepotism were in place long before Covid arrived.

Even after what happened in the Coombe and Beacon, posters are still coming out with the tired argument "would you prefer if they went in the bin". In the Coombe's case, a hospital consultant brought mRNA vaccines that have very specific refrigeration and transportation requirements, home to family members. Were those vaccines even effective by the time they were administered, who knows. Maybe the second dose that those people subsequently received in the correct manner was actually the first dose, who knows.

Meanwhile, several months later, housebound elderly still hadn't received their first dose of the vaccine because "the ambulance service is very busy", the HSE didn't know how many housebound there were and because of "logistical difficulties".