Minnesota officer shoots dead another innocent black victim

nullzero

Tell me how wrote: »

Your bar of cast iron irrefutable evidence of a frame of mind with physical content would likely mean that no one would ever be guilty of racial or prejudicial acts again. According to your theory, a group from the KKK could remove their hoods and beat a silently beat a black man and it wouldn't be a racially motivated crime because, in your mind, there was no concrete evidence that it was.

This incident, as I have said repeatedly is another example of a need for reform in American policing practices. That is my position.
Your position is simply to ensure that this is not seen as a racist incident. And when the last incident occurred, that was the same, and when the next one occurs, it will be the same and as long as people are motivated in focusing on doing that, incidents will continue to occur.

What you're outlining is ridiculous.

I never said anything like what you've outlined above in your KKK example. You are invoking hate groups and using emotionally charged rhetoric to labour a point you stated previously you weren't making.

I agree policing practices need reform of an officer can mess things up like in this case.

It is also fair to outline that race wasn't a motivating factor. You are taking liberties when you make assumptions about my motivations.

As for me running PR for the police, get a grip.

We need to understand the facts not invent ones that suit our own narratives.

Tell me how

nullzero wrote: »

What you're outlining is ridiculous.

I never said anything like what you've outlined above in your KKK example. You are invoking hate groups and using emotionally charged rhetoric to labour a point you stated previously you weren't making.

I agree policing practices need reform of an officer can mess things up like in this case.

It is also fair to outline that race wasn't a motivating factor. You are taking liberties when you make assumptions about my motivations.

As for me running PR for the police, get a grip.

We need to understand the facts not invent ones that suit our own narratives.

Your quote.

If the police had been shouting racial slurs at this guy I'd happily accept what you're saying

nullzero

Tell me how wrote: »

Your quote.

What's your point?

Tell me how

nullzero wrote: »

What's your point?

Your bar for what constitutes definitive proof that someone has racially motivated tendencies equates to them verbally stating it.

And I expect you'll come back with 'So every crime is racially motivated so' or similar and I can go ahead and say no, but that when there is evidence of consistent practices which indicate racially motivated tendencies, then racial tendencies cannot be definitively removed as being a contributory factor in an event just because no one announced that that was what motivated them.

nullzero

Tell me how wrote: »

Your bar for what constitutes definitive proof that someone has racially motivated tendencies equates to them verbally stating it.

And I expect you'll come back with 'So every crime is racially motivated so' or similar and I can go ahead and say no, but that when there is evidence of consistent practices which indicate racially motivated tendencies, then racial tendencies cannot be definitively removed as being a contributory factor in an event just because no one announced that that was what motivated them.

My bar for what constitutes definitive proof?

Should I simply accept you saying something is racially motivated as all the proof that's needed?

This incident is clearly a tragic accident. The remorse of the officer who fired the shot is obvious. This has no connection to the practices your talking about. It was a horrible mistake, not a racially motivated premeditated killing.

Tell me how

nullzero wrote: »

My bar for what constitutes definitive proof?

Should I simply accept you saying something is racially motivated as all the proof that's needed?

This incident is clearly a tragic accident. The remorse of the officer who fired the shot is obvious. This has no connection to the practices your talking about. It was a horrible mistake, not a racially motivated premeditated killing.

Say the police officers involved who initiated the stop were racist, they saw a black man in a newish car and presumed he was up to no good (as happened in another case in the news recently). How do you think that the public would become aware that there were racial motivations involved? You stated you would believe so if they were using racial slurs, so it's fair to assume you mean then that as long as they are not, then there is no way that racism can be considered as being a factor.

It is fact that the police chief speaking to the media acknowledged that there is currently an issue with updating tag records for cars and that other police forces are exercising leniency in stopping people for this reason.

I showed evidence of black men being more likely to be pulled over than white people and that that happened less at night when it is more difficult to see who is driving.

All I have said here, is that this is another incident that shows America needs action to overcome the issues it sees frequently which many people just pass off as tragic accidents or horrible mistakes. By all means go to post 234 and respond to that, I am much more interested in that type of conversation than a 'move along, nothing to see here' type of reaction.

nullzero

Tell me how wrote: »

Say the police officers involved who initiated the stop were racist, they saw a black man in a newish car and presumed he was up to no good (as happened in another case in the news recently). How do you think that the public would become aware that there were racial motivations involved? You stated you would believe so if they were using racial slurs, so it's fair to assume you mean then that as long as they are not, then there is no way that racism can be considered as being a factor.

It is fact that the police chief speaking to the media acknowledged that there is currently an issue with updating tag records for cars and that other police forces are exercising leniency in stopping people for this reason.

I showed evidence of black men being more likely to be pulled over than white people and that that happened less at night when it is more difficult to see who is driving.

All I have said here, is that this is another incident that shows America needs action to overcome the issues it sees frequently which many people just pass off as tragic accidents or horrible mistakes. By all means go to post 234 and respond to that, I am much more interested in that type of conversation than a 'move along, nothing to see here' type of reaction.

He was stopped because of the issue with his vehicle registration. Not because of his skin colour. There was another issue relating to a Minnesota state law about hanging items from a rear view mirror. Nothing to do with the officers being racist (I think the officer attempting to cuff him was an African American man himself).

Lots of whataboutery, nothing of substance.

This was a routine stop by police, nothing to do with race. The issue about records of vehicle registration being active should have been a reason for Mr Wright to remain calm and jot resist arrest and attempt to flee.

The officer firing her gun instead of her razer is extremely alarming but cannot reasonably be attributed to racism.

You spoke at length earlier about how you couldn't prove race was an issue in this case. Now you're shoe Horning it in with gusto.

BrokenArrows

Apparently the officer is being charged with manslaughter. Based on the video I think that's crazy.

nolivesmatter

nullzero wrote: »

A question to the thread.

Can we state categorically that Duante Wright killed because of his skin colour?

Not only can we not categorically state it, there doesn't appear to be anything in play here that even hints that race was a factor. Even if there is a problem with racism in the police this is terrible example to use to try to prove that out.

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

Except sex is a factor. Police are softer to female suspects.

Y’all are great at this logic thing.

Just because sex is "a factor" doesn't mean that ""If sexism wasn't a factor in police killings, 1 in 2 police victims would be female as they are 1 in 2 of the population."

Are you honestly saying that if police weren't softer on female suspects, and treated all suspects equally, then half the deaths would be females? That's nonsense and you know it.

biko

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Apparently the officer is being charged with manslaughter. Based on the video I think that's crazy.

For me it fits.
It doesn't appear to be murder and it is lethal force.

nolivesmatter

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Apparently the officer is being charged with manslaughter. Based on the video I think that's crazy.

It was a major f**k up though. This would be a clear case of manslaughter IMO.

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

Where did I say it’s the full story!? Literally read the post you quoted. It’s *A* factor. Cop on people.

Stop it. You said "Indeed, if race wasn't a factor in police killings, 7 in 10 police victims would be white as they are 7 in 10 of the population."

So you were saying that this factor alone accounts for the discrepancies in police killings between black and white suspects. That's clear for all to see.

Tell me how

nullzero wrote: »

He was stopped because of the issue with his vehicle registration. Not because of his skin colour. There was another issue relating to a Minnesota state law about hanging items from a rear view mirror. Nothing to do with the officers being racist (I think the officer attempting to cuff him was an African American man himself).
Lots of whataboutery, nothing of substance.

Apart from the evidence that black people are pulled over more than white people, that there is an active issue with plate status which other police forces are acknowledging and not stopping cars as a consequence.

This was a routine stop by police, nothing to do with race. The issue about records of vehicle registration being active should have been a reason for Mr Wright to remain calm and jot resist arrest and attempt to flee.

Like the soldier in his new vehicle who was told he was right to feel threatened by police who stopped him and asked him to exit his vehicle?

The officer firing her gun instead of her razer is extremely alarming but cannot reasonably be attributed to racism.

You spoke at length earlier about how you couldn't prove race was an issue in this case. Now you're shoe Horning it in with gusto.

I'm not shoehorning anything in, I'm pointing out facts that exist, you don't want to consider them because the officers did not announce that they were racist. Let's try to make it easy enough for you to understand.

This is another example of how policing in America is not functioning in everyone's best interest.

Any chance at all of a suggestion on how to improve this?

Ckendrick

26 years of service to the people of the US. One stupid mistake, made under severe pressure. You’re life can turn upside down in a heartbeat. It’s sad that the young man died but he’s around 75% to blame himself IMO.
I’m still waiting for anyone to point out the evidence of racism in the whole sorry affair.

Tell me how

nolivesmatter wrote: »

Not only can we not categorically state it, there doesn't appear to be anything in play here that even hints that race was a factor. Even if there is a problem with racism in the police this is terrible example to use to try to prove that out.

It's another in a series of frequent events. Discounting some of these make it easier to deny there is a problem.

nullzero

Tell me how wrote: »

Apart from the evidence that black people are pulled over more than white people, that there is an active issue with plate status which other police forces are acknowledging and not stopping cars as a consequence.


Like the soldier in his new vehicle who was told he was right to feel threatened by police who stopped him and asked him to exit his vehicle?



I'm not shoehorning anything in, I'm pointing out facts that exist, you don't want to consider them because the officers did not announce that they were racist. Let's try to make it easy enough for you to understand.

This is another example of how policing in America is not functioning in everyone's best interest.

Any chance at all of a suggestion on how to improve this?

It's not incumbent upon me to offer those suggestions.

They could begin with making sure another gun isn't discharged instead of a taser.

You are shoehorning the above issues in here. Race is clearly not a motivating factor in this case no matter how much you feel it is.

Tell me how

nullzero wrote: »

It's not incumbent upon me to offer those suggestions.

They could begin with making sure another gun isn't discharged instead of a taser.

You are shoehorning the above issues in here. Race is clearly not a motivating factor in this case no matter how much you feel it is.

You literally couldn't have proven my point any more clearly.

nullzero

Tell me how wrote: »

You literally couldn't have proven my point any more clearly.

Why should I dance to your tune when you refuse to answer simple questions and fail to acknowledge your own clear hypocrisy?

Tell me how

nullzero wrote: »

Why should I dance to your tune when you refuse to answer simple questions and fail to acknowledge your own clear hypocrisy?

Hey, earlier you said the ball was in my court on whether I wanted you to continue or not. Now you treat being asked a question as my asking you to dance to my tune.

Your silence on that question is telling. As I said, you not answering it proves my point.

nolivesmatter

Tell me how wrote: »

It's another in a series of frequent events. Discounting some of these make it easier to deny there is a problem.

This isn't being discounted. If you go through the sequence of events there's nowhere you can assert race played a part.

- Wright was justifiably pulled over for expired license plates.
- He resisted arrest.
- The police officer intended to stun him.
- The police officer f***ed up and killed him.

Apparently she's being charged with manslaughter now, and rightly so IMO. But we can't just act as though it was a racial issue because you think it strengthens an overall argument that there is a problem with racism in the police.

I would ask you: if the officer had actually stunned him as she intended to do and he was arrested thereafter, would you still say there was something racial at play?

nullzero

Tell me how wrote: »

Hey, earlier you said the ball was in my court on whether I wanted you to continue or not. Now you treat being asked a question as my asking you to dance to my tune.

Your silence on that question is telling. As I said, you not answering it proves my point.

I said I was willing to leave things if you were.

You weren't, you kept going.

My silence on giving solutions to problems in American policing is telling?

I'm not qualified to solve those problems.

You can't help but reach for the moral high ground can you?

Ted_YNWA

nullzero wrote: »

It's not incumbent upon me to offer those suggestions.

They could begin with making sure another gun isn't discharged instead of a taser.

You are shoehorning the above issues in here. Race is clearly not a motivating factor in this case no matter how much you feel it is.

Tell me how wrote: »

You literally couldn't have proven my point any more clearly.

nullzero wrote: »

Why should I dance to your tune when you refuse to answer simple questions and fail to acknowledge your own clear hypocrisy?

Tell me how wrote: »

Hey, earlier you said the ball was in my court on whether I wanted you to continue or not. Now you treat being asked a question as my asking you to dance to my tune.

Your silence on that question is telling. As I said, you not answering it proves my point.

nullzero wrote: »

I said I was willing to leave things if you were.

You weren't, you kept going.

My silence on giving solutions to problems in American policing is telling?

I'm not qualified to solve those problems.

You can't help but reach for the moral high ground can you?

Mod

Knock it off the pair of you.

Fr D Maugire

Tell me how wrote: »

Apart from the evidence that black people are pulled over more than white people, that there is an active issue with plate status which other police forces are acknowledging and not stopping cars as a consequence.


Like the soldier in his new vehicle who was told he was right to feel threatened by police who stopped him and asked him to exit his vehicle?



I'm not shoehorning anything in, I'm pointing out facts that exist, you don't want to consider them because the officers did not announce that they were racist. Let's try to make it easy enough for you to understand.

This is another example of how policing in America is not functioning in everyone's best interest.

Any chance at all of a suggestion on how to improve this?

Well, surely the first step would be recognise that policing is not the sole problem in this issue. To me, people being armed in the US is a huge issue for the police.

Black people have been historically discriminated against in the US which is why they are more likely to be poor and therefore more likely to be involved in crime leading to a higher figure in crime statistics. That is the systemic problem. How you solve that, I have no idea.

But there is also the issue of black culture in the US and the choices they make that does not help themselves. Many prominent black figures like Morgan Freeman, Denzel Washington, Charles Barkley etc have pointed this out as well, Black on Black crime, shootings etc. i have friends in the US married to Black people who say the exact same thing about their own culture. There is work to be done on both sides.

Victimhood should not be the first resort to every perceived issue someone has over there. I have seen firsthand this type of thinking when I lived in the UK. My flat-mate who was a minority drove a boy racer BMW with the tinted windows etc. On one occasion when I was in the car with him, he performed an illegal right turn in the city. He knew what he was doing as he did it all the time on the way to the flat, on this occasion he realised too late there was a police car coming down the street that saw the illegal turn and sure enough it followed us and pulled him over. Got him out of the car, asked a few questions, got me to confirm his id and let him go.

Now why was he stopped by the police?

1. Because he pulled an illegal turn?
2. Because he was driving a boyracer BMW?
3. Because he was young?
4. Because he was a minority?

Now it could arguably be any of those or all of those together, but as soon as he got back in the car, the first claim made was he was pulled because he was a minority even though he knew he had performed an illegal turn and was spotted doing so. What is the solution to that problem?

celtic_oz

The guy in this video was shot, thats why people run

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OflGwyWcft8

nullzero

celtic_oz wrote: »

The guy in this video was shot, thats why people run

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OflGwyWcft8

Completely different scenario.

GreeBo

Accepting that the gun was an honest mistake, do people really think that a tazer is acceptable response to someone fleeing a traffic stop?

Ckendrick

GreeBo wrote: »

Accepting that the gun was an honest mistake, do people really think that a tazer is acceptable response to someone fleeing a traffic stop?

He wasn’t really fleeing a traffic stop. He was fleeing serious firearms charges and an assault charge that involved choking a woman.
The traffic stop ceased being just a traffic stop once that had been established

biko

GreeBo wrote: »

Accepting that the gun was an honest mistake, do people really think that a tazer is acceptable response to someone fleeing a traffic stop?

Yes, it's a non-lethal weapon developed just for these situations (temporarily disabling a person but not killing them).

There is a simple remedy to increase your chances of not getting hurt - if you are pulled over, don't fight the police.

Galwayguy35

Should change the thread title, he wasn't exactly innocent.