What is the deal with the Banning Conversion Therapy in Ireland campaign?

Gradius

Gwen Cooper wrote: »

Oh yes, my apologies, I forgot that you're more intelligent than any of us lowly peasants here.



I see. And how did you come to this conclusion? Based on an intensive research into both gender issues and the Loch Ness Monster, I hope?

The same way I came to the conclusion that shoes go on your feet. It's self-evident.

The loch Ness monster has some vague semblance of feasibility because of certain realities like the prior existence of dinosaurs.

Believing you are a dinosaur has no basis in reality. You can read all about other crack-pots believing they are dinosaurs,
you can promote it, you can legislate for humans being dinosaurs, you can create entire educational programs about humans being dinosaurs, but it's all make-believe at the end of the day.

When your position begins with "I believe" and ends on "because I believe", youre in a self-fulfilling bubble of fantasy.

Gwen Cooper

Gradius wrote: »

The same way I came to the conclusion that shoes go on your feet. It's self-evident.

Yes, if you were seeing shoes for the first time ever without any prior knowledge of footwear or its purpose, I believe that you'd eventually come to the conclusion of where they go and what they're for. However, unless you grew up in some highly traumatizing circumstances, you were introduced to shoes at a very early age and were taught how they work. So saying that you came to the conclusion that Nessie is more based in reality than gender identity issue "the same way I came to the conclusion that shoes go on your feet" is pretty much just you admitting that you were taught to think that.

Gradius wrote: »

The loch Ness monster has some vague semblance of feasibility because of certain realities like the prior existence of dinosaurs.

For this argument to be accepted, we would have to assume that a long time ago, someone saw a dinosaur in the lake, despite the fact that the dinosaurs were long (and I mean really, really long) dead by the time humans walked this Earth. Extremely unlikely, mate.

Also, science has looked into the Nessie thing and they didn't find anything supporting that a giant monster was ever living in that lake. Unlike, you know, the many scientists who looked into the gender identity and have actual legitimate, widely-accepted, peer-reviewed studies published, proving that it's a real thing.

Gradius wrote: »

Believing you are a dinosaur has no basis in reality. You can read all about other crack-pots believing they are dinosaurs,
you can promote it, you can legislate for humans being dinosaurs, you can create entire educational programs about humans being dinosaurs, but it's all make-believe at the end of the day.

Aha, we finally agree on something! Yes, people thinking that they are not only an entirely different species, but also a whole different animal class, that's bad and I'd recommend consulting a medical professional.

Gradius

Gwen Cooper wrote: »

Yes, if you were seeing shoes for the first time ever without any prior knowledge of footwear or its purpose, I believe that you'd eventually come to the conclusion of where they go and what they're for. However, unless you grew up in some highly traumatizing circumstances, you were introduced to shoes at a very early age and were taught how they work. So saying that you came to the conclusion that Nessie is more based in reality than gender identity issue "the same way I came to the conclusion that shoes go on your feet" is pretty much just you admitting that you were taught to think that.



For this argument to be accepted, we would have to assume that a long time ago, someone saw a dinosaur in the lake, despite the fact that the dinosaurs were long (and I mean really, really long) dead by the time humans walked this Earth. Extremely unlikely, mate.

Also, science has looked into the Nessie thing and they didn't find anything supporting that a giant monster was ever living in that lake. Unlike, you know, the many scientists who looked into the gender identity and have actual legitimate, widely-accepted, peer-reviewed studies published, proving that it's a real thing.



Aha, we finally agree on something! Yes, people thinking that they are not only an entirely different species, but also a whole different animal class, that's bad and I'd recommend consulting a medical professional.

That's some mountain of spurious shyte there.

Okay, let's really push you into the corner:

The observable reality: I look like a black man, have a penis, 2 arms and two legs, can be biochemically and anatomically tested to scientifically prove I am a man.

What I believe: I am an Asian woman with only 3 limbs.

Now, do you believe I am that Asian amputee woman?

Overheal

Gradius wrote: »

The same way I came to the conclusion that shoes go on your feet. It's self-evident.

It is?

Cant imagine if we took some sneakers to a tribe in the Amazon or somewhere that they’d for-sure figure out what they were for. You’ve reminded me of this stunt Burger King did years ago, feeding burgers to people who had never even seen a burger before (and evidently not even a sandwich) most of whom had no clue how to hold or eat one. Not everything is as self evident as cultural conditioning would have us believe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP5pWBz8zyo

Gradius

Overheal wrote: »

It is?

Cant imagine if we took some sneakers to a tribe in the Amazon or somewhere that they’d for-sure figure out what they were for. You’ve reminded me of this stunt Burger King did years ago, feeding burgers to people who had never even seen a burger before (and evidently not even a sandwich) Not everything is as self evident as cultural conditioning would have us believe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QP5pWBz8zyo

"Can't imagine...", yet you believe wholesale in pure imagination.

I certainly can believe in cultural conditioning, however, because there's no other explanation for supposed adults to believe in fantasy.

Gwen Cooper

Gradius wrote: »

That's some mountain of spurious shyte there.

Okay, let's really push you into the corner:

The observable reality: I look like a black man, have a penis, 2 arms and two legs, can be biochemically and anatomically tested to scientifically prove I am a man.

What I believe: I am an Asian woman with only 3 limbs.

Now, do you believe I am that Asian amputee woman?

"Let's really push you into the corner", they said and proceeded to come up with a nonsensical scenario that only slightly touches the gender issue.

If you were born as a man and you come out as transgender, then yes, I will absolutely accept you as a woman, will use your preferred pronouns, and will support you in your transition.

Trying to identify as a different race and coming up with a fictional disability are not part of gender identity, and you know it.

I suppose you couldn't just say "I look like a black man, have a penis, 2 arms and two legs, can be biochemically and anatomically tested to scientifically prove I am a man. What I believe: I am a woman. Now, do you believe that I am a woman?", because you know yourself what the answer would be. You had to try to come up with something that never happens in society, just to justify your own transphobia.

Gradius

Gwen Cooper wrote: »

"Let's really push you into the corner", they said and proceeded to come up with a nonsensical scenario that only slightly touches the gender issue.

If you were born as a man and you come out as transgender, then yes, I will absolutely accept you as a woman, will use your preferred pronouns, and will support you in your transition.

Trying to identify as a different race and coming up with a fictional disability are not part of gender identity, and you know it.

I suppose you couldn't just say "I look like a black man, have a penis, 2 arms and two legs, can be biochemically and anatomically tested to scientifically prove I am a man. What I believe: I am a woman. Now, do you believe that I am a woman?", because you know yourself what the answer would be. You had to try to come up with something that never happens in society, just to justify your own transphobia.

Some waffle there to avoid the obvious.

Okay. I am observably, scientifically, a man.

I believe I am a woman, in complete contradiction to the above.

So, do you believe I am a woman or not?

Gwen Cooper

Gradius wrote: »

Some waffle there to avoid the obvious.

Okay. I am observably, scientifically, a man.

I believe I am a woman, in complete contradiction to the above.

So, do you believe I am a woman or not?

If you read my last post one more time, you'll find that I already gave you an answer to that one.

Gradius

Gwen Cooper wrote: »

If you read my last post one more time, you'll find that I already gave you an answer to that one.

Sure a straighter answer wouldn't do any harm then, would it?

Yes, you believe I'm a woman, or no, you believe that I am not?

growleaves

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

They probably don't call it "conversion therapy", but it stands to reason that if people think sexuality is a choice or a personality trait, it could be changed.

This article seems to confirm that: apparently there was an electro-shock therapy used in the north in the 1970s called aversion therapy (negative conditioning, as the psychologists say), and a Roman Catholic group has organised meetings in recent years involving some kind of prayer/support group for gay people to, I don't know what, pray it away?

I'd be very surprised if gay men and women in Ireland didn't experience some kind of religious intervention 30 or 40 years ago, intending to reform them, but I'm speculating there.

I'm extremely sceptical of any sort of dodgeball "conversion therapy" but becoming religious and choosing a life of celibacy is of course possible for anyone who is motivated to do that - whatever their identity, orientation or desires.

Gwen Cooper

Gradius wrote: »

Sure a straighter answer wouldn't do any harm then, would it?

Yes, you believe I'm a woman, or no, you believe that I am not?

Sorry, I keep forgetting about your reading comprehension issues.

Yes, Gradius. I will believe that you are a woman.

mohawk

biko wrote: »

Can it be used to ban children from transitioning to other gender?

Going on what has occurred in Canada and Australia it could have opposite effect. Parents could be forced to affirm instead of waiting to see if the gender Dysphoria persists past puberty.

Gradius

Gwen Cooper wrote: »

Sorry, I keep forgetting about your reading comprehension issues.

Yes, Gradius. I will believe that you are a woman.

So, to draw out the inevitable, you can

1) disregard your senses (eyes, ears)

2) disregard irrefutable science, biochemistry, anatomy and so on

But you'll willingly believe whatever I say, even when all concrete evidence points to the opposite.

To extend that belief system, if I put an empty plate in front of you, and told you I believe a sandwich is there, despite you not seeing it, despite you not smelling it, despite you not being able to touch it, you'd believe me.

Fairy tales for adults.

Make no mistake, it's not simply one element of fantasy at play here, as I said before. There's a whole universe of fiction going around. The emperor's new clothes, entire groups of people "believing" the unbelievable, hysteria.

Overheal

Gradius wrote: »

So, to draw out the inevitable, you can

1) disregard your senses (eyes, ears)

2) disregard irrefutable science, biochemistry, anatomy and so on

But you'll willingly believe whatever I say, even when all concrete evidence points to the opposite.

To extend that belief system, if I put an empty plate in front of you, and told you I believe a sandwich is there, despite you not seeing it, despite you not smelling it, despite you not being able to touch it, you'd believe me.

Fairy tales for adults.

Make no mistake, it's not simply one element of fantasy at play here, as I said before. There's a whole universe of fiction going around. The emperor's new clothes, entire groups of people "believing" the unbelievable, hysteria.

Imagining a sandwich in front of you is an odd parable for an individuals right to self determination.

Baggly

Gradius wrote: »

"I believed I was an Ostrich, therefore I was an Ostrich; One Humanoids Story of Overcoming Reality, Plus More Fairy Tales."

"Fiction at its finest, 5 out of 5" Gardeners Compendium

"I couldn't pick it up," Darwinist Daily

"Didn't make any sense, loved it" Plebeian Gazette

Gradius wrote: »

That's the up-is-down of this entire fictional universe. Contradictions left and right, you're a bee if you want to be, but not a wasp, because reality is a buffet from which I pick and choose.

Gradius wrote: »

Allowing some child-like intellect, the type required for fantasy, to attempt an explanation of the impossible would be patronising of me.

The loch Ness monster has more reality attached to it.

Gradius wrote: »

The same way I came to the conclusion that shoes go on your feet. It's self-evident.

The loch Ness monster has some vague semblance of feasibility because of certain realities like the prior existence of dinosaurs.

Believing you are a dinosaur has no basis in reality. You can read all about other crack-pots believing they are dinosaurs,
you can promote it, you can legislate for humans being dinosaurs, you can create entire educational programs about humans being dinosaurs, but it's all make-believe at the end of the day.

When your position begins with "I believe" and ends on "because I believe", youre in a self-fulfilling bubble of fantasy.

Gradius wrote: »

That's some mountain of spurious shyte there.

Okay, let's really push you into the corner:

The observable reality: I look like a black man, have a penis, 2 arms and two legs, can be biochemically and anatomically tested to scientifically prove I am a man.

What I believe: I am an Asian woman with only 3 limbs.

Now, do you believe I am that Asian amputee woman?

Gradius wrote: »

Some waffle there to avoid the obvious.

Okay. I am observably, scientifically, a man.

I believe I am a woman, in complete contradiction to the above.

So, do you believe I am a woman or not?

Gradius wrote: »

Sure a straighter answer wouldn't do any harm then, would it?

Yes, you believe I'm a woman, or no, you believe that I am not?

Mod

Dont post in this thread again. Lets have a chat via PM about acceptable posting.

Baggly

paw patrol wrote: »

so what though...if people voluntarily want to give it a shot
why shouldn't they?

The LBGT lobby has no bother with young people lobbing their cocks off and injecting themselves with life altering hormones into their bodies but somehow balk at the notion that somebody may want therapy to leave their club.
Both have severe impacts. yet one is deemed acceptable and one not.
odd that.

Mod

Dont post in this thread again.

Gradius

Baggly wrote: »

Mod

Dont post in this thread again. Lets have a chat via PM about acceptable posting.

I've sent you a pm, so let's go.

Mod

Week off.

Gwen Cooper

Gradius wrote: »

So, to draw out the inevitable, you can

1) disregard your senses (eyes, ears)

2) disregard irrefutable science, biochemistry, anatomy and so on

But you'll willingly believe whatever I say, even when all concrete evidence points to the opposite.

*angrily accuses others for disregarding irrefutable science while disregarding irrefutable science*

So, since I'm so very wrong and you're absolutely correct in everything, I'm sure you can link me to some studies that support your opinion, right? You know, just so we're clear about who's disregarding science here.

jam_mac_jam

Reading some stuff about it during the day and it does seem to be a thing in Ireland. Which I am surprised by. So maybe it does need to be banned.

ThunbergsAreGo

Sheeps wrote: »

I'm not arguing the merits of conversion therapy. I'm asking what is this a reaction to? The simple fact that it is legal is irrelevant if it doesn't happen here. Cannibalism is legal in Ireland, yet there isn't an urgent rush to outlaw it, because it doesn't actually happen.

Is it about making a statement? Is there some real risk of someone setting up a conversion therapy practice in Ireland? It just seems like a non-issue.

It lets parties say they have done something progressive, which has very little impact on most peoples lives while screwing over most in the state.

Eric Cartman

Im happy with this if it can be used to outright ban parents transitioning their kids from their birth gender.

Gay conversion therapy, puberty blockers, hrt, all of this stuff is absolutely child abuse.

I hope everyone can get with every element of this to wipe put sexuality/gender alteration in children across the board, be it prompted by religion or a devotion to post modern leftism

chopperbyrne

Conversion therapy in the traditional sense is not a big deal in Ireland.

Activists have been claiming that not affirming someone's identity is conversion therapy, so this is an attempt to make anything other than the 'affirmation model' illegal.

Quantum Erasure

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Im happy with this if it can be used to outright ban parents transitioning their kids from their birth gender.

Gay conversion therapy, puberty blockers, hrt, all of this stuff is absolutely child abuse.

I hope everyone can get with every element of this to wipe put sexuality/gender alteration in children across the board, be it prompted by religion or a devotion to post modern leftism

This is from the 'JK Rowling cancelled thread', about banning conversion therapy in Canada
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=113891066#post113891066

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

...this is the tweet Rowling liked


That seems to be saying that if a therapist helps a child feel comfortable in their body, that will be against the law. I’m taking from that that the only acceptable therapy will to agree with the child that they are in the wrong body. What about detransitioners? Wouldn’t they have been exactly the children who a therapist may have helped feel comfortable in their body? And what is homophobic about that? Please help me here.

I don't know if the Irish bill could be interpreted in the same way, or if it would be

And the next two posts in that thread, for the craic

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote:

Quantum Erasure wrote:

for a minute there i was very confused as to what 'conversion therapy' was referring to....

Helping a child feel comfortable in their bodies = conversion therapy apparently. I’m living in a cuckoo clock.

I’m... actually okay with this being highlighted. Let more people see the utter absurdity of it all.