FF/FG/Green Government - Part 3 - Threadbanned User List in OP

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118821379#Comment_118821379

🤣

It is interesting one party is so keen to tell everyone that we should forgive and forget

Yet the next minute they will drag up anything in the past to make some sort of point. Which is it?

Anyway no idea what the information you posted had to do with an interview the other night?

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118821271#Comment_118821271

I think history will be very unkind on the way successive FFG governments treated people in the context of Direction Provision centres. It will be up there with the Mother and baby homes, Illegal Adoptions and Industrial schools.

The fundamental difference between the domestic scandals you mention and DP, is those caught up in the former were victims who had no way out.

The latter can always just leave/try their luck elsewhere if they don't like the conditions. No one is forcing them to stay.

Personally, I think the comparison is somewhat offensive to those genuine victims in the first groups.

_Kaiser_

Numbers of Ukrainian refugees are increasing rapidly..

OVER 40,000 UKRAINIAN refugees are expected to have arrived in Ireland by the end of April, the Tánaiste has told the Dáil.

It comes as local authorities have identified approximately 500 properties that may be repurposed and used to house Ukrainian refugees .

There are currently over 10,000 Ukrainian refugees in Ireland, with Tánaiste Leo Varadkar telling the Dáil that this is to rise to 20,000 by the end of March.

Responding to Róisín Shortall, co-leader of the Social Democrats, Varadkar said that the number of refugees arriving into Ireland is expected to top 40,000 by the end of April.

I still agree that we need to help, but where do we plan to house that number of people at that rate, given we are already in the midst of a long term housing crisis as it is.

People donating rooms and houses in a fit of sympathy is all well and good, but how many of those offers will actually follow through when they've thought about the impact some more.

But there's more...

Minister Humphreys said that 7,326 PPS numbers have been provided to Ukrainian refugees so far. 51% of those are women, 37% are children and 12% are men. 

She said that social welfare is currently being paid to nearly 5,100 Ukrainian refugees and child benefit is being paid for 1,838 children. A basic payment of €206 is initially being paid, which will then be transitioned onto the standard payment, she added. 

https://www.thejournal.ie/500-houses-ukrainian-refugees-5717819-Mar2022/

Why are we giving them PPS numbers and setting then up with standard social welfare rights? Why is there not a wholly separate temporary emergency payment to support them for as long as the crisis lasts?

In other words, our political masters seem to just be dealing with this as a long term increase to our population and setting arrivees up accordingly at the same time as we're struggling with housing, the aftermath of Covid, the rocketing costs of living (as I type this there's a notification from the IT that inflation may hit 8.5% in the coming months), lack of infrastructure and all the other issues.

Again, we should help as much as we can but there are practical limits to this. That's reality. How is this at all sustainable?

Podge_irl

Why are we giving them PPS numbers and setting then up with standard social welfare rights? Why is there not a wholly separate temporary emergency payment to support them for as long as the crisis lasts?

Because the "crisis" may potentially last forever and leaving people under the constant cloud of temporary accommodation is not helpful.

If the situation does resolve itself, most of these people will go home.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118821985#Comment_118821985

The crisis is long term based on what is been seen. Setting up a total separate system will cost millions to the tax payer and would be totally ridiculous. Ukraine by the looks of it will be come part of Europe and so these people will be entitled to be treated like European citizens so we are getting ahead of the game

We have a shortage of staff as well across all industries. getting these people into Ireland and integrated into the community can only help, they cannot work without PPS numbers.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118821997#Comment_118821997

That's speculation. The reality is that most of these people have lost everything and may have no homes to go back to when Putin is done, to say nothing about having lost loved ones and friends to the fighting. Many may well choose to stay in a safe European country far from any fighting where they are being given welfare supports indefinitely, especially if Russia manages to annex half/all of the country.

Our response should be in-line with the crisis itself - a tragic but hopefully temporary situation that will be resolved sooner rather than later, preferably through diplomacy rather than ongoing military action - not a long term resettlement to a country that is already failing to deal with the same problems and lack of supports that these people will be even more vulnerable to.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822016#Comment_118822016

This is the same argument that is used for immigration (particularly DP/asylum seekers) as a whole - the new arrivals will be workers we need, productive tax-paying members of society, and a benefit to us socially and culturally.

That's a nice ideal, but as we've seen with DP and some of the issues thereafter (which are buried in vague language when they surface in the media), far from a guarantee.

Oh and in relation to your (now deleted) point - I have a problem with what seems to be an unlimited "free for all" in regards the topic of immigration as a whole for what seems to be primarily a notion of it being "the right thing to do". As I've said numerous times on this subject, we should help if/where we can absolutely, but that has to be in realistic terms and not at the cost of those citizens and legal migrants already here.

We are a small island nation of 5 million people with significant structural problems in housing, health, costs of living (even before Putin started his war against Ukraine), political governance and accountability, massive welfare dependency, an over-reliance on US FDI - the list goes on!

In other words, we can only do so much, and we already have a lot of serious problems that we're failing to address.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822083#Comment_118822083

"Free for all"? our biggest issue in Ireland has nothing to do with people from overseas. The biggest issue with "free for all" mentality is our own homegrown, full 100% Irish person.

When we had a large influx of Polish etc they added massively to the country, the issue now is the majority have returned home and now we are screwed.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822059#Comment_118822059

Why would they stay on long term welfare support? majority of these people will have worked their entire life and because they are now in Ireland they are going to suddenly stop and sit around all day?

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822097#Comment_118822097

People returned home because of Covid and the effect of restrictions and work in some cases, and all the problems I referenced above in others. Others may only ever have seen Ireland as a short term stop to earn and save as much as possible before returning home.

Simply replacing these Polish people with Ukrainians will not solve that, to say nothing about questions like: What jobs are they qualified for vs what ones have we available, have they the necessary language skills to do them, are their qualifications equivalent to and recognised by our education system/employment bodies, where are they going to live etc etc

Again, I'm not saying we shouldn't help or that immigration can't be a positive thing, but it needs to be positive and beneficial for BOTH sides, and we need to accept that there is only so much we can do (again, small population, over 50% on some sort welfare payment, fundamental structural problems in the areas I mentioned above), and therefore some sort of limits and controls are not only sensible, they're essential!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118821985#Comment_118821985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118821985#Comment_118821985

The Ukrainian situation is urgent. Giving PPS numbers and social welfare payments are an emergency measure. Disused convents are being used around the country. Upgrades are being carried out by the good people of Ireland.

https://www.corkbeo.ie/news/local-news/north-cork-community-converts-old-23440734

https://tippfm.com/news/international/fethard-playing-part-ukrainian-refugee-crisis/

https://tippfm.com/news/international/tipperary-people-welcoming-ukrainian-refugees-homes/

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822141#Comment_118822141

Who is saying to "simply replace Polish people with Ukrainians". This is a tragic situation, these people have fled with just suitcases etc. Now we are saying we don't want to give them a PPS number so they can work and setup a life here, temporary or not. Why?

Language skills, qualifications? seriously you are deluded if you think Ireland is above the Ukraine prior to the war.

Benefit both sides? do you understand why Ireland is in Europe? we have to treat these people like Europeans, that is the goal for the Ukraine and I seen the government was in Europe last night asking to fast track. Good on them.

The unemployment in Ukraine was less than 10%. Yes higher than Ireland but nothing to suggest these people will not come to Ireland with no intention of working.

We should welcome these people with open arms, give them PPS numbers, give them the chance to work while they stay in this country. If they want to return after war, that is great. If they want to stay. Let them stay

Podge_irl

Again, I'm not saying we shouldn't help or that immigration can't be a positive thing, but it needs to be positive and beneficial for BOTH sides

Why? It is an act of altruism for our European neighbour who is facing extreme hardship, not a quid prop quo.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822347#Comment_118822347

I know I am been flippant, but it would seem some people think we shouldn't let refugees from a war into Ireland if they don't pass our educations and language requirements.

Not sure how anyone would want to push for a positive on the Irish side when the option these people have is getting killed

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822403#Comment_118822403

You are clearly only selectively reading what has been said in that case. Let me try again

Yes we should help, but we need to also accept that there are limits to what we can realistically do as well, and the only way to manage that is through controls and limits

What seems to be happening is that the Government are using primarily long term measures to address what is hopefully going to be a short term humanitarian crisis.

The issue with that is that rather than using/establishing short term responses that will last only so long as needed - after which anyone who wishes to remain can apply to do so via the established methods for doing so - we are instead adding already to an already overloaded system and with no end dates or indeed limits on those who can enter built in.

That is the problem. We cannot help or support everyone who arrives at our door, no matter how worthy their case may be. That's unfortunate absolutely, but it's reality. We can only do so much with the resources we have - resources which are already stretched to breaking point in many key areas (as I called out previously)

That may not be palatable, but it's the truth of the situation.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822646#Comment_118822646

We cannot help or support everyone who arrives at our door, no matter how worthy their case may be

We can and we already are. You said we shouldn't give them a PPS number in case they don't have english or a decent enough education. Do we have the same requirements for all people born in Ireland? because I know my kids had no english or education when they got them at birth.

I am reading all of the information in your posts. Really it gets worse and worse as you keep typing.

As i said we should welcome these people with open doors, if people are willing to turn down social housing or not move into it because of XYZ, great. Let these people move in. All the vacant house dotted around Ireland in the little villages etc should be opened to them. Let reignite the countryside that the Irish are so willing to abandon.

Even if we give these people unemployment benefits while they get up and running, what do you think they are going to do with it? they are going to pump it all back into the economy buying clothes/food/etc. Thus creating more jobs etc

Podge_irl

We are not exactly having the worst of it in the EU considering we are easily the most geographically remote country from this. Also again, it is counterproductive to use short-term measures as it just adds to the uncertainty that the refugees are facing - it also precludes them from accessing jobs and accommodation and forcing the state to look after them indefinitely.

Yes, this will cost us. It is ultimately quite a small sacrifice in the grand scheme of things.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822702#Comment_118822702

Will it cost us? we are low on workers. If we give them money now to setup they are going to buy clothes/food etc in Ireland and pump the money back into the economy.

The people who want to work will find jobs etc. We should be trying to welcome these people, not put up silly blockers.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118821947#Comment_118821947

I was comparing them in the sense that everybody knows there are major problems with the DP centres and systems but there is a societal blind eye turned on the problem. Many people simply don't want to know yet there is little state oversight or reform/remediation. History will not be kind on how this system was created and operated/managed for 20 years. The government said the DP system would end in 2024 but this has already been shown to be absolute nonsense. In the meantime human rights bodies have heavily criticised the DP system, the delays in processing and the living conditions - and it's only getting worse. There are 2,658 children, in direct provision and emergency accommodation centres across Ireland. Direct Provision is an unnatural family environment that is not conducive to positive development in children.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822725#Comment_118822725

In the short term definitely. Long term its rather hard to say.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823341#Comment_118823341

I remember the stories that went around after Poland joined Europe, Ireland was going to be flooded etc etc etc. yes we had loads came over, they worked, the problem is they went home. Ask anyone in construction now and they wish all the Polish would return.

I am not saying we replace them with Ukraine people as the accusation above, I am just saying that in majority of cases the people that come in add to the community in a huge way.

In terms of long term, we have no idea. The pictures are awful on the tv and I dont know enough about the situation to say what will actually end the war

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118821871#Comment_118821871

Default simplistic response from FGers when burned - You must be a Sinn Fein voter + whataboutery

orecir

A new low today from Varadkar accusing Healy-Rae of homophobia.

How FG still have this charlatan in charge is mind boggling.

FrancieBrady

Seems our local government is a microcosm of our national government.

In our analysis, two predominant themes persist in the local government sector.

One is the lack of accountability. Another is the persistent absence of real transparency.

https://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2022/0322/1287882-council-chamber-secrets-local-authorities/

Bubbaclaus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823459#Comment_118823459

You know you have entered the Twilight Zone when you have Mick Caul taking Varadkar's side here. Think you may be backing the wrong horse orecir.

https://twitter.com/caulmick/status/1506347799968989185?t=G3JaYXncOTbyHfsdTEtWAw&s=19

Suckit

??? Leo's arrogance?

What did he say? Airy Fairies? 🤣

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823760#Comment_118823760

"Reflect on it" "Reflect on it and come back tomorrow" - Fck off Leo.

Unless I missed it, I cannot see anything wrong with what he said there. If it is the Airy Fairies thing, I am pretty sure he meant mythological fairies, as in fantasy land.

Leo just flipped it and pretty much threw healy-raes words back at him, with the added implication that he said something derogatory.. 🙄

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823760#Comment_118823760

The Healy Rae clan, an embarrassment to the entire country, well apart from Kerry who like them buying up houses from family's that got threw up of them during the crash

Suckit

Does anybody even know what Leo was referring to?

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824245#Comment_118824245

Well you seemed outraged about it, as per your post above, so I would have expected you knew?

Suckit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824269#Comment_118824269

Right, you REALLY need to look up the word 'outraged'. You use it incorrectly every single time.

In the post above I was laughing, heartily. Leo repeating to think about what was said was hilarious and kinda left me asking if Leo even knew himself if anything was said. It will likely be Leo that will owe the apology in a day or two, but whether or not he provides one is another thing.

I have acknowledged in both my posts (implied with me asking) that I don;t know what Leo is referring to. Is he calling him homophobic or racist?

Do you actually know what Leo is referring to? Or shall I not bother waiting for a reply from you again.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824245#Comment_118824245

He was doing what has been done here frequently. Jumping on a perfectly normal phrase to extract sympathy from it. He should apologise for taking the wrong meaning from it. Beyond a joke how the homophobic, misogynism, sexist card is pulled at the drop of a hat. Airy fairy notions tbh.