FF/FG/Green Government - Part 3 - Threadbanned User List in OP

Eric Cartman

Bass Reeves wrote: »

So you want to build more Ballymun's, Moyross's and Knocknaheenie's. Of cours this locks people in poverty and keeps making them SF or PBP voters

+1 , building affordable housing creates communities and solves issues, forcing them to be beside social housing just creates ghettos

I abhore ghettos but at this point I cant see any model of building housing that can include the over 60% of able bodied applicants who only rely on social welfare for income and not turn out like an absolute kip

jimmycrackcorm

Shebean wrote: »

No idea how you came to that conclusion. It's about a bad deal selling public land for housing most people won't be able to afford.


We have many people locked into being renters with no hope of home ownership.

How is it you cannot see the irony that the objections to using public land to provide housing just perpetuates having renters with no hope of home ownership because houses aren't getting built?

How is it a bad deal when you don't even have a better deal because if developers aren't doing the building - then who is? Even Clúid has to buy rather than build.

Instead of whining about using public land through private development ( which actually does produce social and affordable housing), don't you state what the alternative is that does provide actual houses?

ineedeuro

This is the way I see it
Opposition: “Build houses”
Gov: “What type?”
opposition: “ just build houses”
Gov: “Ok we are building these houses”
opp: “Not those, different ones”
Gov: “ok what type”
opp: “no idea”

This has been the same for years, change parties around who sit in gov and who sit in opposition and it doesn’t matter. It’s all noise

Let’s say we have election in 2 months and the tables are turned, the new government will launch houses and the opposition will still say its the wrong team even if it’s the exact same thing they announced to a fanfare a few months previous

It’s just noise. All of it is noise.

Floppybits

ineedeuro wrote: »

This is the way I see it
Opposition: “Build houses”
Gov: “What type?”
opposition: “ just build houses”
Gov: “Ok we are building these houses”
opp: “Not those, different ones”
Gov: “ok what type”
opp: “no idea”

This has been the same for years, change parties around who sit in gov and who sit in opposition and it doesn’t matter. It’s all noise

Let’s say we have election in 2 months and the tables are turned, the new government will launch houses and the opposition will still say its the wrong team even if it’s the exact same thing they announced to a fanfare a few months previous

It’s just noise. All of it is noise.

So what you are saying there is that the government don't have a clue what to do and asking the opposition to provide the answers? Typical government response to everything lately.

Bishop of hope

Floppybits wrote: »

So what you are saying there is that the government don't have a clue what to do and asking the opposition to provide the answers? Typical government response to everything lately.

Housing costs are driven by demand really.
Material and labour costs as well as the specs in today's world are humongous.
There is no real answer to housing costs, no magic bullet and he is right, most of the political uttering are just noise, the govt don't control house prices, demand does that and the state can't provide cheap housing, because housing just simply isn't cheap.

Wanderer78

Bishop of hope wrote:

Housing costs are driven by demand really. Material and labour costs as well as the specs in today's world are humongous. There is no real answer to housing costs, no magic bullet and he is right, most of the political uttering are just noise, the govt don't control house prices, demand does that and the state can't provide cheap housing, because housing just simply isn't cheap.

A change in policies and approach to housing could reduce costs significantly, we re once again defaulting, and allowing speculative forces to control the outcome, and surprise surprise, the outcome is the same, rising prices!

Demand is only one entity of rising prices, we also decided after the 08 crash, let's significantly reduce building, when demand was actually increasing, and now we ve decided, let's panic, and let's leave the fire sectors(finance, insurance and real estate) take control yet again, shur what can go wrong!

ineedeuro

Floppybits wrote: »

So what you are saying there is that the government don't have a clue what to do and asking the opposition to provide the answers? Typical government response to everything lately.

You could take that view

What I am saying is that it doesn't matter who is in government, you will end up with the same result in regards to these estates. The government need to build houses, the government need property developers to do it and the property developers are not willing to work for nothing.

The houses have to be built in the location people want them, if this is public land so be it. Trying to say you can sell the land for more doesn't really work because that will make the house unaffordable. Also the "let the developers buy private land". Well do you not think they have already done that? as confirmed already in these locations no private land is left.

ineedeuro

Wanderer78 wrote: »

A change in policies and approach to housing could reduce costs significantly, we re once again defaulting, and allowing speculative forces to control the outcome, and surprise surprise, the outcome is the same, rising prices!

Demand is only one entity of rising prices, we also decided after the 08 crash, let's significantly reduce building, when demand was actually increasing, and now we ve decided, let's panic, and let's leave the fire sectors(finance, insurance and real estate) take control yet again, shur what can go wrong!

So what would you do?

Personally I think we should continue with the plan from the crash and stop this "I need to get onto the property ladder". Well in major cities anyway.
The population is growing so we should be building large apartments etc. Houses take up too much land. The days of houses in major cities should be gone.

Cal4567

Just my two cents worth.

The medium to long term solution is looking at the UK and some other countries, at their models, where you have housing groups that are separate from the state, professionally run but who have the ability to develop across tenures.

Not rocket science but something our governments have not ever looked at replicating. This whole housing crisis firmly puts a spotlight on mistake after mistake for years and that blame is laid squarely at policy makers.

Wanderer78

ineedeuro wrote: »

So what would you do?

Personally I think we should continue with the plan from the crash and stop this "I need to get onto the property ladder". Well in major cities anyway.
The population is growing so we should be building large apartments etc. Houses take up too much land. The days of houses in major cities should be gone.

we re defaulting back to a fire sector lead economy, and its failing yet again, security of accommodation is a critical human need, its not a bloody asset to be speculated upon. we need the fire sectors to help us provide this critical need, but we must not allow them to dictate how its done, yes a part of this should be building good quality high rise apartments in our cities, but we must also build appropriate housing elsewhere

ineedeuro

Wanderer78 wrote: »

we re defaulting back to a fire sector lead economy, and its failing yet again, security of accommodation is a critical human need, its not a bloody asset to be speculated upon. we need the fire sectors to help us provide this critical need, but we must not allow them to dictate how its done, yes a part of this should be building good quality high rise apartments in our cities, but we must also build appropriate housing elsewhere

That's not really an answer is it? No substance as my boss would say.
What are the 5 actions you would take to resolve the housing issues?

Cluedo Monopoly

Fine Gael and this government has to own up to it's part in producing such a flawed mother and baby home report.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/commentanalysis/arid-40305245.html?type=amp

Flawed Mother and Baby report cannot be allowed to stand

The State’s legal advisors repeatedly treat survivors as an inconvenience when it comes to access to personal records, transcripts, burial records, birth certificates or access to justice itself. The result on this occasion is a flawed Mother and Baby Homes Commission of Investigation report

Instead, it is clear from ProfDaly’s statements that the commission disregarded key evidence, and left half of its budget unspent rather than incorporate key oral evidence into its investigative processes.

The result on this occasion is a half-complete investigation, a flawed report, and a series of findings that cannot be allowed to stand. In the end, the State’s miserable approach to its own basic law costs us much more than it saves; in time, public resources, and the dignity and trust of Irish citizens who deserve much better.

The Greens should be ashamed of themselves for providing cover for this whitewash. Did O'Gorman ever find the leak?

jimmycrackcorm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

A change in policies and approach to housing could reduce costs significantly, we re once again defaulting, and allowing speculative forces to control the outcome, and surprise surprise, the outcome is the same, rising prices!

Demand is only one entity of rising prices, we also decided after the 08 crash, let's significantly reduce building, when demand was actually increasing, and now we ve decided, let's panic, and let's leave the fire sectors(finance, insurance and real estate) take control yet again, shur what can go wrong!

This is just waffle. Your point is as valid as me suggesting that housing could be fixed if we had a working Harry Potter wand.

RandomViewer

ineedeuro wrote: »

So what would you do?

Personally I think we should continue with the plan from the crash and stop this "I need to get onto the property ladder". Well in major cities anyway.
The population is growing so we should be building large apartments etc. Houses take up too much land. The days of houses in major cities should be gone.

Dublin wouldn't even qualify as a large town in some countries so referring to it as a major city is a bit pompous to say the least,

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

we re defaulting back to a fire sector lead economy, and its failing yet again, security of accommodation is a critical human need, its not a bloody asset to be speculated upon. we need the fire sectors to help us provide this critical need, but we must not allow them to dictate how its done, yes a part of this should be building good quality high rise apartments in our cities, but we must also build appropriate housing elsewhere

ineedeuro wrote: »

That's not really an answer is it? No substance as my boss would say.
What are the 5 actions you would take to resolve the housing issues?

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

This is just waffle. Your point is as valid as me suggesting that housing could be fixed if we had a working Harry Potter wand.

1. stop promoting a fire sector lead solution, its just helping to drive up prices, as these sectors are just speculation driven!

2. the bulk of the debts must sit on the public balance sheet in order to do the above

3. the state is currently the majority land owner, this should remain to be, post building, also in order to facilitate the above

4. promote alternative approaches such as co op building, proven to reduce costs, with the above stipulations

5. create public banks and public banking systems, in order to part fund these solutions

6. offer those that are currently stuck in the rental market, loans, possible at reduced rates , from these banks, in order to help facilitate the above

7. introduce wealth taxes, particularly related to property and land, such as a land value tax, to help the above

..................

blanch152

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Fine Gael and this government has to own up to it's part in producing such a flawed mother and baby home report.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/commentanalysis/arid-40305245.html?type=amp

Flawed Mother and Baby report cannot be allowed to stand







The Greens should be ashamed of themselves for providing cover for this whitewash. Did O'Gorman ever find the leak?

Oh dear, this is a terribly difficult issue without people making fake conclusions form it.

If the Government controlled an independent Commission you would be criticising them. When they don't control an independent Commission and it produces a report you disagree with, you criticise the Government for not controlling the Commission.

If you won the Lotto, you would complain it wasn't the Euromillions. If you won the Euromillions, you would complain that it was too much money to manage.

ineedeuro

Wanderer78 wrote: »

1. stop promoting a fire sector lead solution, its just helping to drive up prices, as these sectors are just speculation driven!

2. the bulk of the debts must sit on the public balance sheet in order to do the above

3. the state is currently the majority land owner, this should remain to be, post building, also in order to facilitate the above

4. promote alternative approaches such as co op building, proven to reduce costs, with the above stipulations

5. create public banks and public banking systems, in order to part fund these solutions

6. offer those that are currently stuck in the rental market, loans, possible at reduced rates , from these banks, in order to help facilitate the above

7. introduce wealth taxes, particularly related to property and land, such as a land value tax, to help the above

..................

Sounds great, has any political party decided to run based on the above?

ineedeuro

RandomViewer wrote: »

Dublin wouldn't even qualify as a large town in some countries so referring to it as a major city is a bit pompous to say the least,

That is me exactly, pompous

RandomViewer

Thought there'd be more noise about Microsoft funnelling €315BN through Ireland tax free,

https://euobserver.com/tickers/152043

FullyComp

RTE news : New DUP leader holds 'frank' meeting with Taoiseach

http://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0603/1225739-poots-dup-taoiseach-meeting/

Martin has played an absolute blinder here getting the North South council meetings going again with all that has gone on the past few months

blanch152

RandomViewer wrote: »

Thought there'd be more noise about Microsoft funnelling €315BN through Ireland tax free,

https://euobserver.com/tickers/152043

I really wish we had the climate of Bermuda which would make your claim true, but even though it is a lovely day in Dublin, it isn't quite to that standard.

Finty Lemon

FullyComp wrote: »

RTE news : New DUP leader holds 'frank' meeting with Taoiseach

http://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0603/1225739-poots-dup-taoiseach-meeting/

Martin has played an absolute blinder here getting the North South council meetings going again with all that has gone on the past few months

He is a statesman.
The prospect of no excuse to tear down NI institutions will be disappointing for some. But I'm sure a cause will be found. Anyone for some posturing on language rights?

Wanderer78

ineedeuro wrote: »

Sounds great, has any political party decided to run based on the above?

... absolutely none that im aware of, the political left are absolutely atrocious, they have no coherent alternatives to approach this, theyre also complicit is our current mess. these methods are already in action globally, with reasonable success, but with issues also of course

ineedeuro

Wanderer78 wrote: »

... absolutely none that im aware of, the political left are absolutely atrocious, they have no coherent alternatives to approach this, theyre also complicit is our current mess. these methods are already in action globally, with reasonable success, but with issues also of course

In which countries would love to have a look? Thanks

Wanderer78

ineedeuro wrote: »

In which countries would love to have a look? Thanks

public banks:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_bank

recently created Scottish public bank

https://www.thebank.scot/

wales is currently working on creating its own public bank, but it will be a different type to the Scottish one

land value tax:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax

co op building:

https://cooperativehousing.ie/co-operative-housing/

https://www.ocualann.ie/

reducing fire sector involvement is proving to be very difficult, as most countries have gone down this road, particularly over the last few decades, but it is believed that america is currently trying to do so via its stimulus package. we need to also follow this approach, i.e. running perpetual deficits, but it wont happen with our current government, as they are fiscal conservatives, and believe doing so, will lead to the end of the world, it wouldnt!

Cluedo Monopoly

blanch152 wrote: »

Oh dear, this is a terribly difficult issue without people making fake conclusions form it.

If the Government controlled an independent Commission you would be criticising them. When they don't control an independent Commission and it produces a report you disagree with, you criticise the Government for not controlling the Commission.

If you won the Lotto, you would complain it wasn't the Euromillions. If you won the Euromillions, you would complain that it was too much money to manage.

Utter utter nonsense. Did you even read the article or did you apply the darkest blinkers you have?

It was set up to fail by FG and it failed miserably.

The report is being discredited across the board now for ignoring the 500+ testominies that they subsequently tried to destroy.

The Oireachtas Committee on Children will issue another invitation for the three commissioners to appear after two previous invites were declined.

Your beloved Leo even wants to see how they treated the evidence of the survivors.

“If they discounted it entirely, that is a serious problem, and that does question the validity of the report in my view."

https://twitter.com/AmnestyIreland/status/1400762702306365441

Shebean

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

How is it you cannot see the irony that the objections to using public land to provide housing just perpetuates having renters with no hope of home ownership because houses aren't getting built?

How is it a bad deal when you don't even have a better deal because if developers aren't doing the building - then who is? Even Clúid has to buy rather than build.

Instead of whining about using public land through private development ( which actually does produce social and affordable housing), don't you state what the alternative is that does provide actual houses?

Allowing builds that the average person can't afford feeds the buy to rent industry. Losing public land to provide assets for property speculators is not a good thing.


The deal is bad. Wanting a better deal is just that.
The idea that developers will stop being developers if we negotiate a better deal makes no sense.


Build more social and affordable. Pay building firms to build more social and affordable. If we enter a deal with private developers. fight for better than 20% while giving up the land they are to be built on.

Jinglejangle69

All sorted.

I see FF are tabling a motion for a right to housing.

That's it so. We can all hang up the boots.

No need to pay the mortgage anymore.

timmyntc

the State shall, through legislative and other measures, provide for the realisation of this right within its available resources

Its a meaningless gesture - is any action or legislation by future govts ever going to be pulled up for being unconstitutional on this grounds? No.

rob316

ineedeuro wrote: »

This is the way I see it
Opposition: “Build houses”
Gov: “What type?”
opposition: “ just build houses”
Gov: “Ok we are building these houses”
opp: “Not those, different ones”
Gov: “ok what type”
opp: “no idea”

This has been the same for years, change parties around who sit in gov and who sit in opposition and it doesn’t matter. It’s all noise

Let’s say we have election in 2 months and the tables are turned, the new government will launch houses and the opposition will still say its the wrong team even if it’s the exact same thing they announced to a fanfare a few months previous

It’s just noise. All of it is noise.

FG have been in since FF collapsed the country, they have built nothing in that time. Waiting around for private developers to do it for them. The housing crisis is squarely on the feet of FG, if they have any ambition of remaining in power after the current term, they will be borrowing more and investing in building homes. COVID is done nearly, this is a national crisis that will have to be there number 1 priority to tackle or SF will stroll the next election.