FF/FG/Green Government - Part 3

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118807060#Comment_118807060

Did you enter and work in those countries illegally, or did you meet their visa and employment requirements and guidelines?

If the former then you should have been refused entry or deported. If the latter then why is it any different for people coming here?

Your argument is basically "shure they're here already and they have lives and children" which, I'm sorry, is a nonsense counterpoint. "Outcasts and issues" - so?? Should I feel sorry for people who don't even respect our country enough to be here legally?

They shouldn't be here in the first place, they know it, we know it, so why should we turn a blind eye? Should we drop any pretense of immigration controls completely then in that case?

It is entirely normal for a country to have immigration controls and require new arrivals to apply via legitimate entry methods and respect our laws. Just because they haven't been caught (yet) does not excuse this and nor should we just ignore it because they might have to face the consequences - the same as would happen in any other country.

Suckit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118807060#Comment_118807060

"What is the issue with keeping people who have made a life here? These people are working, have children etc in Ireland."

"As I already mentioned it is clear that ireland has illegals already in the country and they are not going to suddenly fly out to get caught. So either you can bring them into ireland as citizen so they can make a proper life for themselves and their children. Or keep them as outcasts and end up with issues long term."

What issues long term?

What about the others that are queuing and filling out forms, and following the proper route to get an Irish citizenship?

Who is is working, has children and made a life here the majority of them, or the minority? The ones that now have a family and have made a life for themselves, it's not really a life, is it? They also knew that they were illegal before they started, and they should never have been able to go that. How are they supporting themselves?

Who is employing them?

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118807139#Comment_118807139

I am not sure why people constantly tell other poster on here what their argument is. Do people honestly think they know someone else opinion?

As I said the people are already here, they are already integrated into our society and keeping them outside will only end up in long term problems which loads fo other countries have seen

This end up in huge criminal problems etc

It was 17000 people who is thought to avail of this bill. This in a population of 5m. To me it’s better to integrate now and stop the king terms issues

In the US for instance it’s over 10000 Irish.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118807173#Comment_118807173

Um.. You have stated your opinion and reiterated it there. It's exactly what I said - essentially "they're here already so leave them be because we might cause them issues if we enforced the law".

If you're telling me that not doing so will lead to criminality then that's even MORE reason to have effective immigration controls.

You also didn't answer my question - when you lived/worked abroad, did you do so legally or did you chance your arm knowing that you were breaking their laws by doing so?

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118807220#Comment_118807220

I did both, not sure what difference that makes.

If you look around the internet and if you have travelled you will see what happens with illegal immigrants not getting integrated into society. Kids are not sent to school because they have no paperwork, those kids grow up and what options do they have? People are taken advantage of by employers who have them working with no workers rights etc.

No idea how people are unaware? This is very new to ireland but most countries are years ahead of ireland. From what people are saying we should just ignore what has happened in other countries, do the exact same as they done and hope it turns out different

As I said it’s 17k people. Bringing this people into ireland as citizen is a lot better move than keeping them out.

I have yet to see you come up with any reason why it’s so bad, apart from them skipping some paper work, which by the way they will have to do now.

So what is the issue with bringing these people in as citizens?

Suckit

"What is the issue with keeping people who have made a life here? These people are working, have children etc in Ireland."

"As I said the people are already here, they are already integrated into our society and keeping them outside will only end up in long term problems which loads fo other countries have seen

This end up in huge criminal problems etc"

These are allegedly the "for" illegal immigrants to be made legal - argument. You know, the ones that already broke many laws to get here.. . The threat that they will become more criminal if we don't give them free money.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118807330#Comment_118807330

you seem to struggle with reading and comprehension on all my posts. Sorry but I cannot provide any further assistance, to myself the post is clear and concise. Thanks

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118807328#Comment_118807328

Well your first sentence explains your view on the topic alright. As someone who did the same abroad yourself from what you've said, it's not surprising you'd have no issue with others living and working illegally in another country (in this case, ours).

The difference is that if someone has no respect for the immigration laws of a country, what expectation that they'll respect any of the other laws of that country, such as employment laws which you also say you broke yourself.

Good for you. Not so much for the citizens and legal migrants in those countries who abide by those laws.

Yet you expect illegal immigrants and workers to be felt sorry for because they're victims? Please! The only victims are the aforementioned citizens and legal migrants who are being undermined and paying for the abuse of their hospitality by chancers.

As for the notion that we should not only ignore this but feel sorry for them and reward them with citizenship - again a perspective skewed by your own experiences and sense of entitlement you had to break the laws of your hosts, but absolute nonsense in the real world.

I already told you what we should do instead - properly screen at point of entry and deport anyone without legitimate and valid reasons for entry, and likewise identify, detain, and ultimately deport any such chancers who do show up in the system (hospitals, welfare, known industries or employers where they frequently end up working illegally etc). This isn't rocket science and there's plenty of international examples to work from.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118808927#Comment_118808927

It's happening for the same reason we don't have a proper defence force, resources and funding have been stripped from those tasked with immigration control.

But typically the power swap and fans will blame everybody but themselves. Alá Varadkar blaming the idea that people thinking that somebody else coming to our rescue for the state of the defence forces.

Pathetic.

BTW People living and working illegally are not 'integrated in their community', it goes against every thing 'integrated' means.

Galwayguy35

I think the real figure is going to be a lot higher than 17000, McEntee was even hinting this as well.

I get what people mean when they say it will bring the illegals into the system and they will become taxpayers like the rest of us but it also sends out the wrong signal to people intenting to come here illegally that this country is a soft mark compared to other EU countries.

Immigration seems to be a topic that successive Governments are afraid to even have a discussion about in this country, and it won't be any different if SF get into power because thy are in favour of even more liberal immigration policies.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118809405#Comment_118809405

The jobs the majority of immigrants are doing, the Irish will no longer do. It's like all the people complaining about Keelings and giving jobs to overseas workers, yet Keeling only had 40 people applied for jobs.

Go to any companies and a certain job type, Irish people won't do it. They would prefer to sit on the social welfare.

So either Ireland brings people in who are willing to do these jobs, or we just ignore and hope it all works out. Want a view of how it looks? Well Brexit is an excellent view with last year the UK saying it had a huge staff shortage.

Also in terms of the 17,000, they are already in Ireland, they are already working you will find. So if someone can explain how Ireland will get 17000 people to back fill for these people? while putting a stamp down telling immigrants they are not welcome so we are not the "soft touch"

Shebean

Does anyone know about this? Behind a paywall. Disappeared off the top stories.

A national politician has become involved in a Criminal Assets Bureau (CAB) investigation.

The CAB visited the offices of the Oireachtas member as part of a probe into the finances of a suspected criminal.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/politician-hands-over-files-to-criminal-assets-bureau-investigation-41468822.html

I only know one national politician currently suspected of criminality.

blackwhite

The inference seems to be that the subject of the Garda investigation is a client or former client of the politician - and that the politician in question still does some work in that profession.

From the article:

<snip> - copyrighted content removed

Suggests it's someone that still maintains their old professional office - and someone who was previously a county or city councillor.

Bubbaclaus

Good to see the continued uptick in residential commencements.

https://twitter.com/DeptHousingIRL/status/1506222579316576256?t=AcDLRhDROMlgSc8PKrPbyQ&s=19

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118818077#Comment_118818077

Would you go away with your good news story😇🙏

orecir

I see Regina Doherty is once again embaressing herself and FG again.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118819894#Comment_118819894

Not sure how an apology is "embarrassing herself". I guess that is what you are referring to ?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118819904#Comment_118819904

I guess it is what she tweeted originally is what they were referring to.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118820008#Comment_118820008

Not really. I think majority of people in Ireland would agree with her.

A certain opposition leader tweeted about this and the responses are hilarious.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118820253#Comment_118820253

So she was just apologising for the craic?

Suckit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118815085#Comment_118815085

I wonder if it has anything to do with this

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/moriarty-findings-under-investigation-outside-the-state-1.4516244

The timing with that coming up must feel very unfortunate for Helen McEntee, and her donations that were each hundreds over the allowed amount per donations. Just the way it will remind many people that certain partys and payments for favours often can go hand in hand.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118820302#Comment_118820302

We always need entities from outside of the state to put manners on our politicians.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118820277#Comment_118820277

You need to ask her, the image's I seen posted prove she was 100% right

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118820381#Comment_118820381

Well she obviously couldn't stand behind the images she was seeing, so I doubt you would be able to either.

Cluedo Monopoly

That FG fool Alan Farrell is absolutely spoofing and waffling on the Tonight Show. How did they elect him in again!?

They are discussing Direct Provision and he simply doesn't know how to answer simple questions. Direct Provisioning was supposed to be a short term arrangement and here we are 20 years later with some families staying 10 years in these centres.

I think history will be very unkind on the way successive FFG governments treated people in the context of Direction Provision centres. It will be up there with the Mother and baby homes, Illegal Adoptions and Industrial schools.

The journalist was correct when he warned Ukrainian refugees not to expect good public services when they get here.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118821271#Comment_118821271

Every government TD goes on these shows they are a fool, or car crash etc etc etc. Seriously change the tune

Dragging the mothers and baby tragedy in to get a cheap shot is not very nice. Is that what the tragedy should be used for now? Thrown around online for digs at political parties?

Suckit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118821271#Comment_118821271

"he simply doesn't know how to answer simple questions"

That seems to be a trait that extends to their lackeys on here too. But he is exceptional in the fact that he made it to where he is. He will never be an appointed minister, they are well aware he is only holding a seat until they get another candidate in his area. He was lucky in his timing. Even the FG voters wouldn't vote James Reilly anymore and there was nobody else. Farrell got the default vote from FG voters too stubborn and arrogant to admit he's useless.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118821271#Comment_118821271

Absolutely, the hypocrisy is beginning to stink to the high heavens tbh.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118821319#Comment_118821319

Car crash you say?

TD Alan Farrell claimed €880 worth of car repairs after minor collision - but later dropped case - Independent.ie

Fine Gael TD Alan Farrell alleged he would have to have more than €880 worth of repairs done to his car following a minor collision - but later dropped a claim for material damage after photos of the vehicle were shown in court.

Mr Farrell says he is "satisfied the matter is concluded" and will not be making any further comment following a segment on whiplash injuries on Prime Time last night.

‘Insurance sector telling us porky-pies for quite some time’ – Fine Gael TD Alan Farrell - Independent.ie

A FINE Gael TD who made a compensation claim for whiplash after his car was pranged at 5mph has accused the insurance sector of telling “porky-pies”.

Alan Farrell took a €15,000 legal case as a result of the road accident – but was only awarded €2,500 after a judge described his injuries as “very minor”.

The Fingal TD alleged he suffered neck and shoulder issues which affected his personal and professional life for up to 18 months.

The court was shown a photograph of him up a ladder with an election poster four months after the incident.

Alan Farrell Whiplash Claim After Vehicle 'Rolled Into His Car At 5 mph' (extra.ie)

A Fine Gael TD filed a claim for damages and personal injuries after a van rolled into the back of his vehicle at ‘around 5 miles per hour’.

Despite the minor nature of the collision, Fine Gael TD Alan Farrell had more than €880 worth of repairs done to his car.

Judge Coghlan said there was ‘little or no notation to back up a claim of significant whiplash’.

TD Farrell campaigned actively in weeks after 'significant injury' - Independent.ie

Fine Gael TD Alan Farrell continued to actively campaign in the weeks after he claimed to suffer a "significant injury" in a crash.

😂

Yet ye turfed Maria Bailey out who got nothing from her duplicitous case.

New Politics?

Jinglejangle69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118821271#Comment_118821271

Well seems 95% of asylum claims are bogus you would think the government has a right to challenge the claims who sometimes appeal for 10 years trying to con the system.

They are free to leave anytime they want, no one is holding them against their will.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118821379#Comment_118821379

🤣

It is interesting one party is so keen to tell everyone that we should forgive and forget

Yet the next minute they will drag up anything in the past to make some sort of point. Which is it?

Anyway no idea what the information you posted had to do with an interview the other night?

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118821271#Comment_118821271

I think history will be very unkind on the way successive FFG governments treated people in the context of Direction Provision centres. It will be up there with the Mother and baby homes, Illegal Adoptions and Industrial schools.

The fundamental difference between the domestic scandals you mention and DP, is those caught up in the former were victims who had no way out.

The latter can always just leave/try their luck elsewhere if they don't like the conditions. No one is forcing them to stay.

Personally, I think the comparison is somewhat offensive to those genuine victims in the first groups.

_Kaiser_

Numbers of Ukrainian refugees are increasing rapidly..

OVER 40,000 UKRAINIAN refugees are expected to have arrived in Ireland by the end of April, the Tánaiste has told the Dáil.

It comes as local authorities have identified approximately 500 properties that may be repurposed and used to house Ukrainian refugees .

There are currently over 10,000 Ukrainian refugees in Ireland, with Tánaiste Leo Varadkar telling the Dáil that this is to rise to 20,000 by the end of March.

Responding to Róisín Shortall, co-leader of the Social Democrats, Varadkar said that the number of refugees arriving into Ireland is expected to top 40,000 by the end of April.

I still agree that we need to help, but where do we plan to house that number of people at that rate, given we are already in the midst of a long term housing crisis as it is.

People donating rooms and houses in a fit of sympathy is all well and good, but how many of those offers will actually follow through when they've thought about the impact some more.

But there's more...

Minister Humphreys said that 7,326 PPS numbers have been provided to Ukrainian refugees so far. 51% of those are women, 37% are children and 12% are men. 

She said that social welfare is currently being paid to nearly 5,100 Ukrainian refugees and child benefit is being paid for 1,838 children. A basic payment of €206 is initially being paid, which will then be transitioned onto the standard payment, she added. 

https://www.thejournal.ie/500-houses-ukrainian-refugees-5717819-Mar2022/

Why are we giving them PPS numbers and setting then up with standard social welfare rights? Why is there not a wholly separate temporary emergency payment to support them for as long as the crisis lasts?

In other words, our political masters seem to just be dealing with this as a long term increase to our population and setting arrivees up accordingly at the same time as we're struggling with housing, the aftermath of Covid, the rocketing costs of living (as I type this there's a notification from the IT that inflation may hit 8.5% in the coming months), lack of infrastructure and all the other issues.

Again, we should help as much as we can but there are practical limits to this. That's reality. How is this at all sustainable?

Podge_irl

Why are we giving them PPS numbers and setting then up with standard social welfare rights? Why is there not a wholly separate temporary emergency payment to support them for as long as the crisis lasts?

Because the "crisis" may potentially last forever and leaving people under the constant cloud of temporary accommodation is not helpful.

If the situation does resolve itself, most of these people will go home.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118821985#Comment_118821985

The crisis is long term based on what is been seen. Setting up a total separate system will cost millions to the tax payer and would be totally ridiculous. Ukraine by the looks of it will be come part of Europe and so these people will be entitled to be treated like European citizens so we are getting ahead of the game

We have a shortage of staff as well across all industries. getting these people into Ireland and integrated into the community can only help, they cannot work without PPS numbers.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118821997#Comment_118821997

That's speculation. The reality is that most of these people have lost everything and may have no homes to go back to when Putin is done, to say nothing about having lost loved ones and friends to the fighting. Many may well choose to stay in a safe European country far from any fighting where they are being given welfare supports indefinitely, especially if Russia manages to annex half/all of the country.

Our response should be in-line with the crisis itself - a tragic but hopefully temporary situation that will be resolved sooner rather than later, preferably through diplomacy rather than ongoing military action - not a long term resettlement to a country that is already failing to deal with the same problems and lack of supports that these people will be even more vulnerable to.

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822016#Comment_118822016

This is the same argument that is used for immigration (particularly DP/asylum seekers) as a whole - the new arrivals will be workers we need, productive tax-paying members of society, and a benefit to us socially and culturally.

That's a nice ideal, but as we've seen with DP and some of the issues thereafter (which are buried in vague language when they surface in the media), far from a guarantee.

Oh and in relation to your (now deleted) point - I have a problem with what seems to be an unlimited "free for all" in regards the topic of immigration as a whole for what seems to be primarily a notion of it being "the right thing to do". As I've said numerous times on this subject, we should help if/where we can absolutely, but that has to be in realistic terms and not at the cost of those citizens and legal migrants already here.

We are a small island nation of 5 million people with significant structural problems in housing, health, costs of living (even before Putin started his war against Ukraine), political governance and accountability, massive welfare dependency, an over-reliance on US FDI - the list goes on!

In other words, we can only do so much, and we already have a lot of serious problems that we're failing to address.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822083#Comment_118822083

"Free for all"? our biggest issue in Ireland has nothing to do with people from overseas. The biggest issue with "free for all" mentality is our own homegrown, full 100% Irish person.

When we had a large influx of Polish etc they added massively to the country, the issue now is the majority have returned home and now we are screwed.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822059#Comment_118822059

Why would they stay on long term welfare support? majority of these people will have worked their entire life and because they are now in Ireland they are going to suddenly stop and sit around all day?

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822097#Comment_118822097

People returned home because of Covid and the effect of restrictions and work in some cases, and all the problems I referenced above in others. Others may only ever have seen Ireland as a short term stop to earn and save as much as possible before returning home.

Simply replacing these Polish people with Ukrainians will not solve that, to say nothing about questions like: What jobs are they qualified for vs what ones have we available, have they the necessary language skills to do them, are their qualifications equivalent to and recognised by our education system/employment bodies, where are they going to live etc etc

Again, I'm not saying we shouldn't help or that immigration can't be a positive thing, but it needs to be positive and beneficial for BOTH sides, and we need to accept that there is only so much we can do (again, small population, over 50% on some sort welfare payment, fundamental structural problems in the areas I mentioned above), and therefore some sort of limits and controls are not only sensible, they're essential!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118821985#Comment_118821985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118821985#Comment_118821985

The Ukrainian situation is urgent. Giving PPS numbers and social welfare payments are an emergency measure. Disused convents are being used around the country. Upgrades are being carried out by the good people of Ireland.

https://www.corkbeo.ie/news/local-news/north-cork-community-converts-old-23440734

https://tippfm.com/news/international/fethard-playing-part-ukrainian-refugee-crisis/

https://tippfm.com/news/international/tipperary-people-welcoming-ukrainian-refugees-homes/

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822141#Comment_118822141

Who is saying to "simply replace Polish people with Ukrainians". This is a tragic situation, these people have fled with just suitcases etc. Now we are saying we don't want to give them a PPS number so they can work and setup a life here, temporary or not. Why?

Language skills, qualifications? seriously you are deluded if you think Ireland is above the Ukraine prior to the war.

Benefit both sides? do you understand why Ireland is in Europe? we have to treat these people like Europeans, that is the goal for the Ukraine and I seen the government was in Europe last night asking to fast track. Good on them.

The unemployment in Ukraine was less than 10%. Yes higher than Ireland but nothing to suggest these people will not come to Ireland with no intention of working.

We should welcome these people with open arms, give them PPS numbers, give them the chance to work while they stay in this country. If they want to return after war, that is great. If they want to stay. Let them stay

Podge_irl

Again, I'm not saying we shouldn't help or that immigration can't be a positive thing, but it needs to be positive and beneficial for BOTH sides

Why? It is an act of altruism for our European neighbour who is facing extreme hardship, not a quid prop quo.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822347#Comment_118822347

I know I am been flippant, but it would seem some people think we shouldn't let refugees from a war into Ireland if they don't pass our educations and language requirements.

Not sure how anyone would want to push for a positive on the Irish side when the option these people have is getting killed

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822403#Comment_118822403

You are clearly only selectively reading what has been said in that case. Let me try again

Yes we should help, but we need to also accept that there are limits to what we can realistically do as well, and the only way to manage that is through controls and limits

What seems to be happening is that the Government are using primarily long term measures to address what is hopefully going to be a short term humanitarian crisis.

The issue with that is that rather than using/establishing short term responses that will last only so long as needed - after which anyone who wishes to remain can apply to do so via the established methods for doing so - we are instead adding already to an already overloaded system and with no end dates or indeed limits on those who can enter built in.

That is the problem. We cannot help or support everyone who arrives at our door, no matter how worthy their case may be. That's unfortunate absolutely, but it's reality. We can only do so much with the resources we have - resources which are already stretched to breaking point in many key areas (as I called out previously)

That may not be palatable, but it's the truth of the situation.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822646#Comment_118822646

We cannot help or support everyone who arrives at our door, no matter how worthy their case may be

We can and we already are. You said we shouldn't give them a PPS number in case they don't have english or a decent enough education. Do we have the same requirements for all people born in Ireland? because I know my kids had no english or education when they got them at birth.

I am reading all of the information in your posts. Really it gets worse and worse as you keep typing.

As i said we should welcome these people with open doors, if people are willing to turn down social housing or not move into it because of XYZ, great. Let these people move in. All the vacant house dotted around Ireland in the little villages etc should be opened to them. Let reignite the countryside that the Irish are so willing to abandon.

Even if we give these people unemployment benefits while they get up and running, what do you think they are going to do with it? they are going to pump it all back into the economy buying clothes/food/etc. Thus creating more jobs etc

Podge_irl

We are not exactly having the worst of it in the EU considering we are easily the most geographically remote country from this. Also again, it is counterproductive to use short-term measures as it just adds to the uncertainty that the refugees are facing - it also precludes them from accessing jobs and accommodation and forcing the state to look after them indefinitely.

Yes, this will cost us. It is ultimately quite a small sacrifice in the grand scheme of things.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822702#Comment_118822702

Will it cost us? we are low on workers. If we give them money now to setup they are going to buy clothes/food etc in Ireland and pump the money back into the economy.

The people who want to work will find jobs etc. We should be trying to welcome these people, not put up silly blockers.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118821947#Comment_118821947

I was comparing them in the sense that everybody knows there are major problems with the DP centres and systems but there is a societal blind eye turned on the problem. Many people simply don't want to know yet there is little state oversight or reform/remediation. History will not be kind on how this system was created and operated/managed for 20 years. The government said the DP system would end in 2024 but this has already been shown to be absolute nonsense. In the meantime human rights bodies have heavily criticised the DP system, the delays in processing and the living conditions - and it's only getting worse. There are 2,658 children, in direct provision and emergency accommodation centres across Ireland. Direct Provision is an unnatural family environment that is not conducive to positive development in children.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822725#Comment_118822725

In the short term definitely. Long term its rather hard to say.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823341#Comment_118823341

I remember the stories that went around after Poland joined Europe, Ireland was going to be flooded etc etc etc. yes we had loads came over, they worked, the problem is they went home. Ask anyone in construction now and they wish all the Polish would return.

I am not saying we replace them with Ukraine people as the accusation above, I am just saying that in majority of cases the people that come in add to the community in a huge way.

In terms of long term, we have no idea. The pictures are awful on the tv and I dont know enough about the situation to say what will actually end the war