FF/FG/Green Government - Part 3

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118851327#Comment_118851327

SF had first conversations with Green, then nothing. If they had joined with the Greens who just wanted to get into government to implement then what would FF and FG have done?

FG already jumped the gun and said they would go into opposition

SO it would have been left with FF, so either they could say no and go back to the polls or try to negotiate. None of that happened because SF went missing.

You don't need to make up a hodge podge, no independents. The floating party was the Greens. PBP etc all would have wanted to jump in but SF could and should have got the Greens if they wanted to be serious about been in government.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118851391#Comment_118851391

You don't seem to understand Dail arithmetic. Even with every left 'party' on board the SF train (and with PBP that's a massive if) that only gets you to 68 seats. SF needed a bare minimum of 80 to form a government, and with FF and FG not playing ball the only place they could get those extra seats was the independent ranks.

Varadkar talking about FG rebuilding in opposition was just posturing; he always knew if FF came to him with a realistic offer he would have to accept, otherwise he would be pushing FF into the arms of SF.

IMO SF's political mistake was to engage in any sort of exploratory talks with other left parties about government formation as it allowed their enemies to spin this false narrative about them 'running away'. Immediately the result of the election were in they should have stated: "A government can only realistically be formed by two out of three from us, FF and FG. FG and FF won't talk to use, therefore we have nothing more to contribute."

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118851529#Comment_118851529

I understand it exactly and my post was clear above. You just seemed to ignore that I said and went off about FG and FF instead. As I said, the Green's was the party to get and SF talked to them up first

Not been rude but I don't see the need to repeat what I already posted

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118851323#Comment_118851323

Once more you need to lie.

I have never said 'everything is damaging if it involves the government'

I have praised their handling of Covid where they got it right and Brexit the same.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118851562#Comment_118851562

I went on about FF and FG because I was explaining that they in effect held the whip hand over SF. If they both refused to do business with SF it was impossible in practical terms for SF to form a government.

atticu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118851169#Comment_118851169

How do you think this is damaging for Coveney's position in the party?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118851625#Comment_118851625

FG in particular knew this and could spout away all they wanted about staying in opposition, knowing they would have FF come begging. Cynical politics if effective power clinging.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118851625#Comment_118851625

As I posted, FG said they would go into opposition so they are out.

If SF wanted to get into government. They could have got the Greens and then they had FF. So it was FF decision either to go into coalition with SF or go back to the polls.

Instead SF disappeared and FF/FG/Greens after a number of months of negotiations formed a government.

SF "won" the election and had the mandate to bring a government together. They done nothing, waited till the government was nearly formed and then complained.

Suckit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118851529#Comment_118851529

That has already been explained a hundred times before, and a long time ago. The tactic now is running over old ground and repeating old nonsense to detract and wait for the new excuses or reasonings to surface for the current issues. Any old crap they will cling on to, in the hope that the current issues will be forgotten, if even for a brief moment.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118851646#Comment_118851646

Fairly obvious that he no longer has the ability to persuade or confidence of his cabinet colleagues.

The scandals involving him were always going to weaken him (unless you are the handwaving away faithful) and this is the physicals manifestation of it.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118851659#Comment_118851659

So you seem to be saying if SF pressed ahead with 'coalition building', FF would eventually have had to come on board. I see no good reason to believe this; if FF had wanted to go back on their pledge not to deal with SF they could have done so at any point after the election. Whatever smaller party or parties would make up the numbers in that coalition was very much a secondary issue, and there were various options on the table: Greens, Labour, SDs, Independents.

As I posted, FG said they would go into opposition so they are out.

And as I posted, this was just throwing shapes by FG: at no point did they rule out a deal with FF.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118851689#Comment_118851689

How would this discuss mean the current issues are forgotten? what sort of a ridiculous statement is that?

It is a discussion forum, we are discussing a topic which because of the recent poll. The housing issues and health are discussed in great detail. If anything changes on them I am sure it will be raised here.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118851779#Comment_118851779

How could FG rule out a deal with FF? they had just come out of a government in which they are made a deal with FF.

As I posted a few times FF had the option either to join SF or go back to the polls. You have ignored this multiple times and gone back to FG. As I said FG was out of the picture, they came out and said they wanted to go into opposition.

Various options was not on the table. I again refer to my original post about SF and the Greens.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118851779#Comment_118851779

It was clear and mentioned by many journalists that FF would have dealt with SF on the night of the election when MM thought he had a commanding majority of seats, when that diminished somewhat as the count went on, FF shut the door again, not prepared to be equal or minor party in a coalition with SF.

This was a FF leader who also promised never to go into a coalition with FG...but what happened?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/fianna-f%C3%A1il-reaction-martin-opens-door-to-government-with-fg-or-sf-1.4167246

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118851807#Comment_118851807

Well if FG were genuinely out of the picture and genuinely wanted to go into opposition why didn't they rule out a deal with FF; it would have clarified things for everyone. You don't seem to understand the political art of 'playing hard to get'.

It's not just me that keeps going back to FG, it's FF that did in the end, as you may have noticed from the makeup of the current government. It might reasonably be asked if they ever had any intention of doing anything else...

Re the smaller parties, why is it only the Greens who could have propped up a SF-FF government? Why not Labour, the SDs, or left-leaning Independents.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118851906#Comment_118851906

Why did FG come back into the picture? well what was the other option. The country was been ravaged by Covid. If you remember the grip of fear across the World was incredible. People afraid to leave their house, just driving into Dublin city centre and it was empty. It was shocking.

TD's get into politics to do good. It is very simple to me, Ireland needed our TD's to stand up and be counted and in the end FF/FG/Greens decided to do that.

That is while the rest knew how difficult it was going to be and hid. It was all over the radio that people would get lockdown fatigue and the government would be the ones who would bear the brunt of it. It was such a huge event it was always going to end up with the government doing some things wrong, that was a fact.

In regards to the Greens, I already explained, no interest in doing it again.

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118851625#Comment_118851625

And it will be the same in after the next election if either of FF or FG refuse to talk to SF then SF will not be able to form a government unless they win over 70 seats and even then they would need to 2 out of 3 of PBP, SD, Lab or Greens and that would also be dependent on how they do? Also in saying that neither FF or FG will be able to form a government either unless they are getting over 70 seats between them.

Shebean

The SD's vowed not to go in with FF/FG. If not for the Greens we'd possibly have had to go to the mattresses again. Only the self interested seem to want to do business with FF/FG.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118852348#Comment_118852348

When every party doesn’t want to go into government with you, maybe the problem is with that party and not everyone else

Just something to consider

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118852378#Comment_118852378

Nobody wanted to go into government with FG before the last GE. Do we need to see MM saying it again?

Don't be politically naïve. If it suits they will all coalesce.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118852403#Comment_118852403

I have no idea why you think you can call people “politically naive” on a forum

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118852443#Comment_118852443

Well it is politically naïve to say that in this country. The EVIDENCE is all there. If you are ignoring it, it is either because you have an agenda or you are naïve

Last time out, FF said they wouldn't go in with FG or SF...WHAT happened?

atticu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118851742#Comment_118851742

That is your opinion, and other may have a different opinion.

Yet, I notice that you have posted that if anyone has a different opinion to you, then you consider them to be 'the handwaving away faithful'. Why is that?

Are you trying to shut down discussion so that everyone agrees with you, or are you just trying to insult everyone who does not agree with you? I am not sure which it is, but you have attempted to only leave two option open when in fact they are many other option. I can never understand why posters do this if they want to discuss/debate something.

I don't agree with your opinion, and I am not one of 'the handwaving away faithful' that you refer to.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118852468#Comment_118852468

Any chance you could give us your opinion without the amateur phycology? What do you think happened here?

atticu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118852490#Comment_118852490

It is not my opinion that we are discussing, it is yours. You want to make a meal of this, and you have done your best to criticise and moan about the 'government'.

Having said that, I think that hosting the event would have been great. Not everyone in Government agreed, and now Cork will not be hosting the event. I think it is a pity, but now it is time to move on.

And thanks for the insult (there was no need for that, but I guess that you could not help yourself.) Maybe next time you give your opinion you might manage to do it without throwing insults and name calling.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118852513#Comment_118852513

So why do you think it was refused?

Coveney was touting that it was worth over 2 billion to anywhere that hosted it. Given that the infrastructure is mostly going to be built anyway the 200 million cost was something FF and FG could have spun at the drop of a hat.

I think it is safe to say that what journalists were reporting after Zapponegate - that Coveney's star has fallen dramatically in government and even in his own FG was the end of this event.

The perils of being embroiled in scandal has cost Cork and the region.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118852513#Comment_118852513

What 'insult'?

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118852457#Comment_118852457

Sorry but you don't seem to have a breeze, trying to drag in Zappone in the comment below proves that

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118852552#Comment_118852552

It was clear on the press release the upgrades required couldn't be put in place in time. I expect they will bid again but on a different timeline.

Zappone 😂

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118852513#Comment_118852513

Its a huge loss but at least the plan would seem to be put a timeline to the upgrades and bid again

.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118852685#Comment_118852685

Journalists were reporting last year that the Zappone affair had had an impact. Again, getting yourself embroiled in a damaging scandal were you have to renege on something you tried to do under the counter, has an effect. It would be absolutely naïve to believe otherwise or you are in 'handwave away' mode. I don't think anyone could be that naïve tbh.

An unlikely casualty of the Merriongate controversy is probably going to be an Irish bid to host the America’s Cup in 2024. The idea of staging the yacht race in Cork was closely linked with Simon Coveney, the minister for foreign affairs, whose political stock has been greatly devalued due to the row over his appointment of Katherine Zappone to a UN post. Mr Coveney is no longer in a good position to press the case for Cork,

Critics of America’s Cup pitch steer us away from ambition | Ireland | The Sunday Times (thetimes.co.uk)

The Government is under pressure from Cork’s business leaders to keep Ireland’s bid for the 2024 America’s Cup yacht race afloat amid fears that the political fallout from the Katherine Zappone affair could derail it.

Cork Chamber, vintners, and hoteliers have urged the Government to commit to spending an estimated €150m to stage the huge global sporting event in and around Cork Harbour ahead of an expected decision from race organisers tomorrow that Ireland is their preferred bidder ahead of Jeddah and Valencia.

Foreign Affairs Minister Simon Coveney has championed the America’s Cup event being held in Ireland, and played a key role in the bid in June, when a technical team from the event’s organising authority visited Cork City and its harbour for a range of briefings and site assessments.

However, with Mr Coveney facing a vote of no confidence in the Dáil this week arising out of the Zappone affair, the race authorities in New Zealand are closely monitoring the political fallout in Ireland.

'It's ours to lose': Pressure on Ireland not to scuttle its bid to host €500m America’s Cup (irishexaminer.com)

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118852761#Comment_118852761

Grasping at straws now 😂

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118852778#Comment_118852778

Hmm...you said it had nothing to do with the Zappone affair - I think media comment says otherwise, but carry on trying to deny it.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118852795#Comment_118852795

In September last year. So the government wasted the last 8 odd months to come out now and say no because they wouldn't have time to build the facilities in Cork. Cop on to yourself for once. Scrambling around all day first off gloating it didn't happen and then trying to make up a story about Coveney. Grasping at straws is 100% correct.

Cluedo Monopoly

Cork is well used to being let down by the Fine Gael TDs. Didn't Dara Murphy rob us all blind while chasing a European job.

FG’s Dara Murphy: based in Brussels for two years but claiming €4,300 monthly Dáil allowance (irishtimes.com)

Cork North Central TD Dara Murphy has claimed his full parliamentary and travel allowances of €4,300 per month despite not having spoken in the Dáil for almost two years.

Mr Murphy has attended the Dáil on 24 of the 70 sitting days this year. Most of the days he has been present have been Thursdays, the day most votes are cast.

He has the lowest attendance record of all 158 TDs.

However, Mr Murphy has been recorded as being present in Leinster House on 55 non-sitting days – among the highest of all TDs.

Most of these days have been Mondays and Fridays, when he was en route to, or returning from, Brussels or other European cities. The 55 days includes 12 days in August.

.................

I believe Leo asked Dara nicely to return the fraudulent expenses...any luck?😉

New Politics is deep in the trough.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118850112#Comment_118850112

And here we are again.

So, simple question...after all the publicly available information I have shared with you....Will you be pushing your local FG and FF TD to resurrect the 2015 Public Sector Standards Bill that got shelved even though it promised much needed reform and had broad support in the Dail?

There's a hole in the bucket Dear Blanchy Dear Blanchy. Try to answer this time.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118852866#Comment_118852866

Hi BA, the news media was predicting this would be the result last September. Which leads me back to the question asked at the start, before the huffing and puffing, is Coveney's political clout gone in the government and within FG.

He championed this idea and was not able to get it over the line.

BTW, the people on the ground in Cork didn't seem to see a problem being ready, so the likelihood is the reasons for the decision were spun. Such is politics.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118852895#Comment_118852895

I doubt anyone in cork would admit if they could or couldn’t deliver the massive positive it would have

Anyway you have gone from gloating over it not happening to now saying you know what teh people in cork said 😂

If it was approved you would be on this thread now saying it was a waste of money when we have a housing issue and health etc

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118852932#Comment_118852932

I said the 'people on the ground' in Cork. And their views are easily accessed on google.

I didn't 'gloat' either, I clearly said the event is neither here nor there for me and that I was interested in the political import of it not happening and what it means for the Minister for Foreign Affairs.

Imagine posing such a question on a government thread, scandalous! 😁

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118852778#Comment_118852778

The problem with posters like Francie is that they see everything through a personalised lens and don’t see the issues. It is all win or lose for an individual. Life isn’t like that, and politics certainly isn’t or shouldn’t be that.

Coveneny saw a potential for something good. He brought it to his department and to government where it was properly appraised before being rejected. That is a good thing and how things should work. We need politicians with ideas, credible ones that can be appraised. We also need politicians who will accept that process of appraisal. All in all, the Americas Cup is a really good example of government working well. Innovative idea from a politician, properly appraised and a decision taken.

however, all of that is irrelevant to the doomsday merchants. They are only interested in low-level point-scoring.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118851659#Comment_118851659

Exactly, Sinn Fein had the opportunity to form a government. Even with 68 or 62, they could have put it up to FF and the independents for confidence and supply or an election with them getting the blame.

the problem for Sf was twofold, 90% of their party doesn’t want to be in government and the few that do are unable to do a deal with any other party. SF’s failure to get into government is all of their own fault.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118854229#Comment_118854229

Ha ha, blanch invents a world nobody lives in and then upbraids anyone who speaks of the real world.

Very good!

Remember this is the politician who had the brainfart to appoint Zappone, didn't inform the Taoiseach properly and wiped the record of what went on.

Must have been having a week off from having 'innovative ideas', getting them 'properly appraised' and awaiting a 'decision'. 😁

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118854262#Comment_118854262

Yawn, nothing new there, ignore the way your position is demolished and have a go at the poster doing the demolition.

Have you managed to figure out yet whether you are in favour of the Americas Cup yet? Hearing SF are for it to use it a stick to beat the government.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118854283#Comment_118854283

Why do you all want to talk about SF on the government thread.

I'll say it again shall I? I am nonplussed about the 'event' like many other events in the country.

I AM interested in the political aspect of it though and the fallout, given it was 'championed' by Coveney and given that media commentators have observed that his political standing is now diminished given the controversies that have surrounded him like a sticky fog.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118854299#Comment_118854299

But it’s clear you are not. You gloated that the event was cancelled and then when the reaction was the event was a huge loss you switched to this rubbish about coveney in some crazy attempt to try be negative about him.

The desperation of using Zappone just proves that.

No idea what you think the gain is here? That people will read this and suddenly not vote Coveney because you have shown them the light? Because that’s not how it works.

As I posted already this online campaign been run by the opposition is in fact doing the opposite, no longer can anyone have a decent discussion about politics without a load of bulls**t been posted like we seen yesterday

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118854310#Comment_118854310

You are stooping to lies again.

Here is my post on this matter, there is NO gloating about the cancellation...zero. Merely a reflection on the political aspect of a high profile minister pet project failing to secure government approval.

Nobody in government prepared to back Coveney's pet project after his scandals? Not looking good to be next leader of FG.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118854343#Comment_118854343

So have you decided yet whether it was a good government decision to cancel it? I mean for someone who claims to have no interest in the event, you sure post an awful lot more than anyone else on these boards about it.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118854939#Comment_118854939

How would it be a 'good decision' if I believe like others, that it was made because Coveney has lost his political clout?

I mean how hard is it for you to work that out?

Floppybits

Yesterday when I heard the government were setting up a pension that anyone without a pension would be auto enrolled into, I thought this was good as everyone should pay into a pension and by auto enrolling people it means younger people, who lets face it don't think about a pension, would be automatically set up. Then you read in the article in the Indo (which for some posters on here along with RTE and IT is gospel) and the article is saying that the government has privately conceded that this is just set up to help people pay for their rent when they retire because they will never own a home so it turns out that was is a good idea is just another handout to landlords/vulture funds.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/new-pension-scheme-needed-to-pay-for-generation-rent-who-will-never-own-a-home-when-they-retire-41501346.html

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118855072#Comment_118855072

To work out that you believe in personality politics rather than issues? Not that hard to work out, actually.

That you believe decisions should be made on the basis of clout and emotion rather than objective merits? Not that hard to work out either, given your approach to other issues.

So, let's ask the question again, based on the objective merits or demerits of hosting the Americas Cup, was it a good decision not to hold it?

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118852890#Comment_118852890

Any answer to a simple question that has been posed to you for many days now Blanch? 🙂

Will you be pushing your local FG and FF TD to resurrect the 2015 Public Sector Standards Bill that got shelved even though it promised much needed and long overdue reform and had broad support in the Dail?