FF/FG/Green Government - Part 3

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118878940#Comment_118878940

No Blanch, the data is the data. You are wrong though. Don't get cheeky.

Lies, damned lies and statistics are usually used when you have a weak argument. And it's more than weak.

The whole world is telling you that the Irish health service is understaffed with major capacity issues but you insist our superior nurse-bed ratio makes everything ok. Crazy talk. The lack of capacity and trained nurses is also the reason why we were in lockdown longer than most European countries.

You are not comparing like with like and you know this. I will repost the reason which you ignored.

Speaking on “Safer nurse staffing: the right person in the right place at the right time, he said that if you just looked at OECD figures, Ireland, with 12.4 nurses per 1,000 population, had more nurses than most OECD states. However, this was not the full picture, as the Irish figures included nurses working in management and education and that made it difficult to get accurate figures of those working directly in clinical practice. In other countries, part of the registration process involved stating place of work – this did not happen in Ireland.

IRELAND HAD ONE OF THE LOWEST NUMBER OF BEDS PER THOUSAND POPULATION AND ONE OF THE HIGHEST BED OCCUPANCY RATES IN THE OECD.

How you like them apples?

Where are you on local government reform these days? 🤣

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118879420#Comment_118879420

Like Enda's 'new politics' that was another load of bluff to buy votes and a large part of why FG are polling their lowest figures ever, because they put another bluffer in charge.

Cluedo Monopoly

These people are all wrong too. 10th March Oireachtas Health Committee

Irish Examiner View: Health service crisis really is a matter of life and death

Our political leaders have to take responsibility for the decline in our health service.

Unless specific and concrete measures are taken to deal with ongoing problems with the HSE we will be facing years, if not decades, of a declining and demoralised health service.

As the Oireachtas health committee heard yesterday, the ongoing crises being faced almost every day in our hospitals are the direct results of failures by successive governments to properly resource the health service.

The committee heard from representatives of those working in healthcare that we are returning to pre-pandemic overcrowding levels.

The Irish Medical Organisation has described hospital overcrowding as a grave danger to patients. IMO assistant director of policy and international affairs Vanessa Hetherington told the committee that persistent overcrowding in hospitals, like record hospital waiting lists, are the direct results of an equally persistent failure to invest in bed capacity, infrastructure, and medical workforce to meet the needs of a growing and ageing population.

The problem, however, is not just a shortage of beds. There is no point in adding beds unless it is accompanied by hiring more medical and other staff to handle them.

Our political leaders have to take responsibility for the decline in our health service and the fact that it is consistently in crisis mode.

The Government’s decision on Tuesday to allow non-EEA doctors who have been working here for two years to access permits and spousal rights without preconditions is a welcome start to addressing the shortage of doctors, but we also need to make working here more attractive for nurses.

We don’t have enough nurses or hospital doctors and there are certain specialist areas within the health service that are suffering these shortages most acutely. 

In a report last week, the Neurological Alliance of Ireland (NAI), revealed that there is a serious shortage of neurology nurses in Dublin. Dublin hospitals only have 28 nurses working in the neurology sector — a shortfall of 57 nurse specialists caring for people in Dublin and surrounding counties.

So do all patients. More than 21,000 patients have been on hospital trolleys waiting for a bed so far this year and the situation is getting worse, not better.

That makes it, literally, a matter of life and death.

.....

Wait, has anyone told them that our nurse to bed ratio is superior and these problems cannot be happening?

...

Fair point

Taoiseach Micheál Martin was health minister from 2000 to 2004, while Tánaiste Leo Varadkar served in the same capacity from 2014 to 2016. They should be more aware than most politicians of the problems within the service.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118879555#Comment_118879555

That is laughable. The health service is not understaffed. They have poor work practices on the frontline, they have underdeveloped capital programmes, they have extremely poor local supervisory management made up of promoted nurses, they have wasteful practices, under-used facilities at certain times etc. etc., but they are not understaffed or underfunded.

By the way, there is now a separate thread on this issue.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118879599#Comment_118879599

You are laughable.

Please see this post.

FF/FG/Green Government - Part 3 - Threadbanned User List in OP - Page 274 — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

It mentions the government several times and was pre todays FOI report.

Where are they wrong calling for more doctors and nurses?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118879617#Comment_118879617

Breaking News - People in healthcare want more people employed so that their jobs are easier.

Well, blow me down, that was completely unexpected, who'd have thought they would want that?

blanch152

https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021

More evidence that we are one of the best countries to live in. Corruption index score going up as we continue progress.

Since 2012 there was been an improvement of 5 in the score for Ireland as corruption becomes less under FG and Green governments.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118880139#Comment_118880139

Sign of a good opposition calling to account.

Good you are confronting the corruption that was there too.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118879726#Comment_118879726

The sting of a dying wasp...so now you are blaming frontline healthcare workers for the lack of bed capacity and staff? Lovely.

The frontline health workers are calling out major problems in our health service for decades because they want to make their jobs easier. Lovely.

How can you actually write this garbage? Try and hold yourself to account. Trying to blame everyone else continually.

The problem is actually getting worse. Would you like the 'moaning' nurses and doctors to shut up too?

The Irish Medical Organisation has described hospital overcrowding as a grave danger to patients. IMO assistant director of policy and international affairs Vanessa Hetherington told the committee that persistent overcrowding in hospitals, like record hospital waiting lists, are the direct results of an equally persistent failure to invest in bed capacity, infrastructure, and medical workforce to meet the needs of a growing and ageing population.

The problem, however, is not just a shortage of beds. There is no point in adding beds unless it is accompanied by hiring more medical and other staff to handle them.

Our political leaders have to take responsibility for the decline in our health service and the fact that it is consistently in crisis mode.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118882221#Comment_118882221

There is no lack of staff, that is my point, that is what the statistics show, that is what the funding shows. All of the problems are within the HSE, with the culture of frontline staff part of the problem, the attitude towards A&E from the general public another. As I said, it is being discussed well on the other thread.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118882221#Comment_118882221

The poster never said that and is not blaming frontline healthcare workers. That is very clear so why are you twisting the post? It’s a very disingenuous way of posting

I see a main thread has been created and hopefully some HSE employee can add to that as I am sure they have some valuable insight

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118882287#Comment_118882287

Actually he said "People in healthcare want more people employed so that their jobs are easier.", Such a brave comment.

It was a spiteful comment. Even this shoddy government knows that health is understaffed and under capacity. Blanch is floundering on this topic as he always does in order to protect his precious party.

There is a real risk of attrition amongst healthcare workers. They will leave because of the terrible working conditions.

The government wouldn't even publish the report without an FOI request!

HSE should not use COVID as excuse to not publish reports - INMO

“Organisations such as the Irish Patient’s Association should not have to get important reports such as the Independent Review of Unscheduled Care Performance through Freedom of Information request. 

“It has been an extremely challenging two years for the health service on the back of several record-breaking winters in succession. It is not good enough for the HSE to deem COVID as a reason not to publish independent reviews into our health service. 

“Hospital overcrowding will always be a relevant issue to our members. Since the Chief Operations Officer wrote that COVID has deemed an independent review into overcrowding into nine of our most overcrowded hospitals in the country as not relevant, over 106,813 patients have been without a bed in Irish hospitals. 

“The results of this review are particularly damning when it comes to the times patients were waiting to be admitted to our emergency departments, with patients waiting nearly seventeen hours in Galway University Hospital. We know that if a patient is on a trolley for more than five hours it can have a significant detrimental impact on their health and indeed their mortality.

“Reports such as these cannot be written off as unimportant or irrelevant because of COVID, in fact they should be viewed as even more important due to the implications of COVID on overcrowded hospital environments. Hospital overcrowding is a real feature in our hospitals and one that INMO have been sounding the alarm on for far too long.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118882632#Comment_118882632

Nonsense.

https://headtopics.com/ie/ireland-s-health-system-isn-t-as-underfunded-understaffed-or-underresourced-as-we-think-21794992

"On health spending, the department annual publication,Health In Ireland(2019 edition), shows the country has the third-highest share of GDP/GNI

spent on health in the OECD, at 12.0pc exceeded only by 12.2pc in Switzerland and 16.9pc in the USA.Health In Irelandalso shows medical and dental staff in the public health service increased by 32.6pc between 2010 and 2019 and that total public expenditure on health here increased by 28.8pc between 2010 and 2019. Given that Ireland has a far lower proportion of its population over 65 than the other OECD countries, we have to ask why we have such a high healthcare cost."

The politicians have given plenty of funding to the healthcare system. However, it is the waste, the poor practices of staff, the particularly poor supervisory management etc. that are causing the problems. The INMO whinging for more staff to make their members' lives easier isn't news or newsworthy.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118882902#Comment_118882902

Head Topics Ireland??!

🤣🤣

Where you dig that one out of? Who wrote it? I don't even think know what you are arguing about anymore? Are you still on about nurse-bed ratio?

Find a link from a newspaper please Blanch. Head Topics 😂 A new low but made me laugh. And your one word intro, classic!

blackwhite

A quick google shows me that Head Topics are an aggregator mainly used for getting around paywalls.

Original article is by Sean Barrett - economist and former senator, and was originally in the Indo.

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/irelands-health-system-isnt-as-underfunded-understaffed-or-underresourced-as-we-think-40852002.html

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118883034#Comment_118883034

Have a look again. The article is a reproduction of an article by the economist Sean Barrett in the Independent.

In your overdone rush to discredit a source, you missed that. First OECD is wrong, Health at a glance is wrong, Sean Barrett is wrong, Independent is wrong, but the conflicted union INMO are right.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118883226#Comment_118883226

Oh it was an opinion piece from a medical economist is it? OECD is right and all nurses and doctors are wrong?? Is that what you are telling me?

And again - actually respond to the content this time. It's from a doctor! And it rubbishes your argument.

.....

Prof. Jonathan Drennan, Professor of Nursing and Health Services Research, School of Nursing and Midwifery, University College, Cork

OECD nurse patient ratios do not give the full picture | Health Manager

Speaking on “Safer nurse staffing: the right person in the right place at the right time, he said that if you just looked at OECD figures, Ireland, with 12.4 nurses per 1,000 population, had more nurses than most OECD states. However, this was not the full picture, as the Irish figures included nurses working in management and education and that made it difficult to get accurate figures of those working directly in clinical practice. In other countries, part of the registration process involved stating place of work – this did not happen in Ireland.

It had also to be remembered that the environment in which Irish nurses worked was very complex, because Ireland had one of the lowest number of beds per thousand population and one of the highest bed occupancy rates in the OECD. The number of beds in hospitals, patient acuity and dependency, support from other health professionals and patient turnover determined the kind of work which nurses carried out. A small number of beds, increasing patient acuity and dependency and high turnover meant nurses would be much busier.

IRELAND HAD ONE OF THE LOWEST NUMBER OF BEDS PER THOUSAND POPULATION AND ONE OF THE HIGHEST BED OCCUPANCY RATES IN THE OECD.

According to the OECD (2015) Ireland had 2.6 beds per thousand of the population, compared to 13.17 in Japan, 6.13 in France, 4.82 in Luxemburg and 4.35 in Finland.

The bed occupancy rate in Ireland was also very high. According to the OECD, we had a 94% bed occupancy rate, while the rate in Europe ranged from 68% in Slovenia to 84% in the United Kingdom, and 46% in the Netherlands.

“So nurses in Ireland are working clinical settings with high rates of patient turnover, which leads to increased nursing work. Therefore to accurately predict nursing numbers we need to have reliable data that includes patient dependency and acuity, patient turnover, bed occupancy, elective vs. acute admissions and educational level and skill-mix of the nursing workforce.”

....

Respond to the content above please, it even mentions the OECD several times 😉....no more waffle about how you know better than the medical professionals.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118883511#Comment_118883511

Another insider complaining. All of these nurses and doctors that are complaining about staffing levels are not objective.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118883952#Comment_118883952

And neither are those on the defensive and trying to absolve responsibilities.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118884109#Comment_118884109

Yes, the OECD figures, the Health at a Glance statistics, the ESRI, the economists, they are all trying to absolve responsibilities.......................wait, what responsibilities do they have?

As usual, you have grabbed the wrong end of the stick.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118884242#Comment_118884242

He used OECD figures!! But he explained the data, unlike you.

An insider, right. That's your latest excuse. Old people are lying on trolleys for days on end and you lay the blame with frontline healthcare 'insiders'.

Party over country. Party over citizen. Shameless.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118884242#Comment_118884242

Pathetic defence and deflection and blaming the wrong people is what I am seeing.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118884505#Comment_118884505

He attempted to explain away the data from a conflicted position as someone with a stake in the system.

None of what he says explains the fact that nearly 20% of nurses would have to be working in education or management to make his excuses stick.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118885610#Comment_118885610

No, he is an expert and knows what he talking about. You don't.

He is the Professor of Nursing and Health Services Research, School of Nursing and Midwifery, University College, Cork. You like FG.

He also said IRELAND HAD ONE OF THE LOWEST NUMBER OF BEDS PER THOUSAND POPULATION AND ONE OF THE HIGHEST BED OCCUPANCY RATES IN THE OECD.

FrancieBrady

Another nice stink getting up about this. The coalition must love the chaos

https://twitter.com/Independent_ie/status/1511290124805488646

skimpydoo

Has this been mentioned on here? FF deleting statements on their website. https://www.ontheditch.com/fianna-fail-deleted-website-statements-predating-micheal-martins-regime/

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118886540#Comment_118886540

Michael McGrath was on The Tonight Show Earlier and he didn't know much about it.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118886752#Comment_118886752

TBF, deleting your history is a little better than re-writing it:

https://twitter.com/FineGael/status/1509538025268826122

But there is another reason for Fine Gaelers to focus on such men. It avoids the reality that a key figure in the party’s foundation and its first leader was the fascistic Eoin O'Duffy. Importantly, it also obviates the need to confront another uncomfortable truth: that there may have never been a Fine Gael at all without the party's arch political enemy, Éamon de Valera.

https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2021/0323/1205568-fine-gael-blueshirts-fascists-eoin-oduffy-1930s-ireland/

a key figure in the foundation of Fine Gael and the party's first leader was Irish fascist Eoin O'Duffy.

Not even a happy meal for poor Eoin on his birthday.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118886757#Comment_118886757

He was looking a bit sweaty I thought.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118886540#Comment_118886540

I'm flabbergasted at this, whatever about a secondment, there's a stench developing around this. Not only is the extremely well financed Trinity not cover his salary but the Department of Health will continue to pay €187k per annum and hire a new CMO on, I presume a similar salary and to further add to the shenanigans CMO seems only to be stepping down, not resigning / Retiring, it's just extraordinary and no one in government seems to have a clue about what is going on.

Stephen Donnelly up shortly on Morning Ireland to justify this nonsense, I presume, this should be amusing.

Meanwhile Anne "Spin" o Connor heading off to VHI , I sense a certain leaving of a sinking ship before enquiries commence on the handling of the Pandemic.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887114#Comment_118887114

Stephen leading with the Zappone defence: 'I think we are very lucky.....' 😁

Dempo1

Donnelly struggling to justify this Tony Holohan Gig, he seems to think we're all going to benefit out of this Trinity Gig .

Donnelly was aware and supported the move , we should feel lucky 😳

We were going to be paying Tony anyway 😳, who's paying for the new CMO 🤔 😳

This is just beggars belief 😡

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887160#Comment_118887160

It's extraordinary 😳

Dempo1

Donnelly just not getting it , there will be TWO CMO salaries and Donnellys justification 🙄, it's public Money 😳

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887176#Comment_118887176

Why oh why do they send him out to make things worse all the time?

'Tony could have stayed for another 20 years' begs the question 'how many are on full salary into their 70's while another is being paid to do their job?

The Minister hasn't a clue and bluffs when in a hole.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887176#Comment_118887176

He wouldn't answer the question for ages. Why can't Trinity pay his salary?? He bluffed about secondments. How was he allowed out to meet the press anyway?

He was also very weak on Slaintecare - Planning will take all this year and implementation will start next year. They debated an implementation plan in 2017. Its always in the future. No wonder the experts resigned.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887211#Comment_118887211

Another Train wreck of an interview.

Another Makey Uppy Job it would seem and of course at taxpayers expense

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887244#Comment_118887244

It's just baffling this buffoon hasn't resigned or been sacked.

This story will grow legs

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118886516#Comment_118886516

The last statement isn't incompatible with what I said. In fact, it makes my case. If we have one of the lowest numbers of beds per thousand population, and one of the highest nurses per thousand of population, it proves my original statement about nurses/beds ratio being the highest in the world. You may now apologise for doubting me.

It also proves my statement that work practice issues around nurses is a significant part of the problem.

orecir

Government now using the war in the Ukraine as an excuse to why they won't meet their quota of 33,000 homes built this year.

These spoofers are something else.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887492#Comment_118887492

What are you on about!? Bed occupancy does not mean the beds are filled with nurses Blanch! 😂 I will repost what he said again so you can grasp the impacts.

Speaking on “Safer nurse staffing: the right person in the right place at the right time, he said that if you just looked at OECD figures, Ireland, with 12.4 nurses per 1,000 population, had more nurses than most OECD states. However, this was not the full picture, as the Irish figures included nurses working in management and education and that made it difficult to get accurate figures of those working directly in clinical practice. In other countries, part of the registration process involved stating place of work – this did not happen in Ireland.

It had also to be remembered that the environment in which Irish nurses worked was very complex, because Ireland had one of the lowest number of beds per thousand population and one of the highest bed occupancy rates in the OECD. The number of beds in hospitals, patient acuity and dependency, support from other health professionals and patient turnover determined the kind of work which nurses carried out. A small number of beds, increasing patient acuity and dependency and high turnover meant nurses would be much busier.

IRELAND HAD ONE OF THE LOWEST NUMBER OF BEDS PER THOUSAND POPULATION AND ONE OF THE HIGHEST BED OCCUPANCY RATES IN THE OECD.

According to the OECD (2015) Ireland had 2.6 beds per thousand of the population, compared to 13.17 in Japan, 6.13 in France, 4.82 in Luxemburg and 4.35 in Finland.

The bed occupancy rate in Ireland was also very high. According to the OECD, we had a 94% bed occupancy rate, while the rate in Europe ranged from 68% in Slovenia to 84% in the United Kingdom, and 46% in the Netherlands.

“So nurses in Ireland are working clinical settings with high rates of patient turnover, which leads to increased nursing work. Therefore to accurately predict nursing numbers we need to have reliable data that includes patient dependency and acuity, patient turnover, bed occupancy, elective vs. acute admissions and educational level and skill-mix of the nursing workforce.”

AN INCREASE IN A NURSE’S WORKLOAD BY ONE PATIENT INCREASED THE LIKELIHOOD OF AN INPATIENT DYING WITHIN 30 DAYS OF ADMISSION BY 7%.

OECD nurse patient ratios do not give the full picture | Health Manager

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887437#Comment_118887437

Donnelly was keen to say he did not 'sign off' on the secondment but was aware of it.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887660#Comment_118887660

Yes, I picked that up and of course that makes it all perfectly acceptable, like as in 'A Sure its Public Money'

Just beggar's belief this carry on, I hear Michael Mc Grath looked very sweaty on the tonight show last night night on VM

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887673#Comment_118887673

Mr Watt said Dr Holohan is hoping to contribute very significantly in his new role on public health policy and his contract is of indefinite duration.

Fine Gael Senator Martin Conway said this means the Department of Health could be funding it for the next 20 years and that it was "highly inappropriate."

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118888394#Comment_118888394

A, Mr Watt, actually surprised its taken this long for this individual to come out and defend this disgraceful nonsense.

Has there ever been a more apt image of smugness 😏

Brucie Bonus

So which underpaid student nurse who worked on the covid frontline is responsible for Tony 'two wages one job' Holohan?

Thats the narrative right?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889273#Comment_118889273

Blame everyone but those responsible? Well I never Brucie!

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118887623#Comment_118887623

I don't think you understand.

I claimed that we had the highest number of nurses per bed in the world.

You have produced evidence that

(1) We have the lowest number of beds in the world

(2) We have an extremely high number of nurses per population, which if 20% of them are working in management and education means that our nursing numbers are average at best.

Taking (1) and (2) together, my claim is proven by you, as average number of nurses (at best) versus lowest number of beds gives us the highest nurse/bed ratio in the world. Now, the implications of having the highest number of nurses per bed is that working practices in our hospitals as determined by local management and unions are extremely poor, thus proving my second point that nursing unions and poor supervisory management are a significant part of the problem.

Thank you for illustrating these points.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118889273#Comment_118889273

Can you explain the two wages?