FF/FG/Green Government - Part 3

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895196#Comment_118895196

Why shoot the messenger when the comment is fully credible?

How does somebody without the credentials get a job like that?

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895215#Comment_118895215

Just incredible how the Examiner constantly get these comments but never have a name.

In terms of hiring people, most companies have moved on from just hiring people who have a degree. A number of years ago they now look for a skill set and then can train people up. My company moved to this process years ago, so have most others.

Surprised you know nothing about it? strange so many people on here have never heard about it.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/what-skills-do-employers-look-for-in-candidates-1.4672530

FrancieBrady

Is that an official excuse or your own?

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895215#Comment_118895215

A wink, Nod and spot of Shenanigans, so to speak.

Leo looked exasperated over this debacle in the Dail earlier, I almost felt sorry for him (about a second), seems Michael Mc Grath not at all happy 🙄, I suspect like Leo it's more they are embarrassed.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895800#Comment_118895800

What are you waffling about now?

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895741#Comment_118895741

You can't on the job upskill to a professorship at Trinity :)

Especially after being hired already, as a professor at Trinity.

Some apologetic gymnastics afoot.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895823#Comment_118895823

LV is on a nostalgia trip. Complaining about the mechanics of the state as if he's nothing to do with any of it. Just like when he was coming up.

Was on about passports for kids taking too long earlier. Waste of a suit.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895902#Comment_118895902

LOL, passport for kids taking to long, how about the parents. Coveney has been denying any delays at the passport office for over a year and yet an almost weekly article about the shambles at his own department.

I was actually surprised by Leo's performance today, not his usual arrogant, smug self, the Holohan story as blind sided the lot of them, they've actually no response or explanation, I thought the "Minister for public expenditure not happy" deflection extraordinary. And now Academics in Trinity furious.

A notion Tony was being moved quietly has ended.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895895#Comment_118895895

I am trying to explain to you how people are hired across industries now. Sorry if you don't understand.

P.S. I think you will find most people never stop up-skilling.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895958#Comment_118895958

The conversation is the CMO being gifted a professorship, he's not qualified for, while still collecting his CMO salary. Not the fella in Supermacs upskilling from mopping to flipping burgers.

P.s. you can't on the job upskill to an academic position. There's exams, getting papers published and the like. Nor should you need to upskill for a job you already have.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896010#Comment_118896010

Supermac Burgers have a texture and taste of something that was actually mopped off the floor 😁

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896010#Comment_118896010

The fact you made reference to Supermacs says it all, as if you should be looking down on a Supermac worker.

You will find nearly every MNC in Ireland use this technique to hire especially with the skills shortage.

Every person that I know spends significant time up-skilling every year and most companies will push for a weekly period to put in additional training, learn new skills.

Nor should you need to upskill for a job you already have. Wow....just WOW

The "conversation" is the usual few posters, outraged and upset about the government. It's nothing new so leave you to the outrage.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896087#Comment_118896087

'Wow just wow' my arse.

You are attempting to make the discussion about upskilling in general. It is not.

You brought in on the job upskilling into a conversation about the former CMO being gifted a job he's not qualified for. Upskilling is learning as you go to improve your prospects. Holohan has the professorship. What in gods name are you on about?

If you want to speak generally about upskilling maybe find an employment forum?

Cluedo Monopoly

I love the attempts to excuse this. Priceless.

They'd sell their own granny rather than admit a wrongdoing! 😂

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895741#Comment_118895741

You should learn from blanch and marko and duck for cover!

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896142#Comment_118896142

It's extraordinary, curious also, everyone treading very carefully and complimenting Tony and wishing him welll and seem to be forgetting the Position was in essence made up with one candidate in mind (Him), is it evenly slightly believable that Trinity just had a eureka moment about a new post and thought maybe Tony might be interested. He, and He alone was "Interviewed" for this position.

I'd like to know who came up with earth shatteringly exciting new post we are all supposed to feel lucky about.

Tony was done, had no support in government, had nothing to say for months and I've no doubt he was unhappy, he wanted out with salary and pension maintained and someone (yet to be determined) came up with this nonsense and I suspect he had a part to play. Watt also has questions that need answering, he's a loose Cannon that says and does as he pleases, Donnelly seems terrified of him.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895800#Comment_118895800

Well maybe I missed officialdom giving that excuse so I am assuming it is your own work?

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896119#Comment_118896119

It’s not my fault you don’t understand how people are hired. Or the fact when you have a job you still constantly up-skill

The conversation is about a person getting a job is it not?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896239#Comment_118896239

It is amazing the number of people who have become expert overnight on what it takes to be an academic. The same posters are experts on profit, misogyny and other issues. Best not to respond to that level of expertise, you only get brought to that level.

Holohan has every quality and experience necessary for the post. He knows more than anyone in the country about the greatest public health challenge this country has ever faced. He mightn't have the book knowledge that some value, but the experience trumps that this time.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896297#Comment_118896297

We're learning on de job blanch. Sure isn't that how it's done?

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896297#Comment_118896297

You don't need to be anymore than self aware to know you need academic credentials for an academic position.

Profit, yes that time I was talking about how people get paid to build things for other people all the time and like then as now party lobbyists are trying to make it about what upskilling is to avoid criticism of their team.

It is amazing the number of people who have become expert overnight on what it takes to be an academic.

Yes indeed.

Holohan has every quality and experience necessary for the post.

Oh dear.

The man is being paid as a CMO while working as a professor, a job he's not qualified for, while we'll also be paying for his replacement CMO.

You are okay with this or will it be another Mahon crooked councillors run away scenario?

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896312#Comment_118896312

See if you work at doing what a doctoral candidate does, before you know it you're a doctor. And if you intern as a professor you can one day become one, even if you left school at 16 and all you have is the junior cert.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896297#Comment_118896297

I find it hilarious that the people who seem to think are experts have no idea how people are hired

Plus it’s actually frightening that someone thinks once they get a job they no longer need to up-skill. The same person trying to mock a restaurant worker.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896389#Comment_118896389

Any precedence here brokenangel?

Never mind your convenient life experience, give us examples of people who have attained this position in Trinity by learning on the job? Is this facility 'to learn on the job' advertised?

Suckit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896389#Comment_118896389

Which 'experts' are you referring to?

Is it MarkoDaly and his comment about payment all coming from the same pot (which it doesn't) and ignoring everything else that people are finding issues with, including that there are now two CMO's being paid 'from the same pot' as a CMO, but only one is actually doing the job.

Or is it Blanch, who told us all that Holohan is the best person for the job, when there have been no other people interviewed, the position was literally made for him, and he STILL isn't the best person for it...

Or is it yourself, who seems to think Holohan can take the role of a full professor at €30,000 more than the going rate and do some upskilling to make the grade.. 😂, yet it is evident that he would need an awful lot of upskilling just to make the shortlist for the most junior academic role.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896389#Comment_118896389

A number of falsehoods there. You made false claims based on nothing and are referencing them as fact. Its childish, dishonest and made up.

Nobody made claims about how people outside of TCD professors are hired. You made that up.

You are talking about people upskilling on the job. I am not.

Nobody claimed nobody upskills or needs to. You made that up.

Nobody mocked a restaurant worker. You made that up.

All you are doing is trying to avoid discussing the former CMO being gifted a job he's not qualified for, as per the professors at TCD. While we pay his CMO salary and the replacement CMO'S salary.

Dempo1

So this is were we are re the Holohan Gig.

A. Department of Health came up with this Bright Idea (And told no one, including Donnelly, the Minister responsible)

B. Holohan was then in Touch with Trinity.

C. The "Makey Uppy Post was then formulated.

D. Holohan attends for "Interview " at Trinity, the only person interviewed for this tremendously exciting post , made up for him.

E. Presumably the DOH then had to work out who's paying for this shenanigans. Came up with a sure we'll just pay Tony's salary and hire a new CMO on similar Salary, "Sure its only public money, who'll notice"

F. Contract Drawn up for Tony with Trinity insuring he maintains his employment status, Salary and pension, paid for by taxpayer via DOH.

G. Robert Watt, gleefully signs off on this nonsense (And tells no one , apart from Tony)

H. Holohan makes an announcement (Deciding not to share all the Juicy, Bits)

I. Politicians, starting with Taoiseach fall over themselves with excitement, paying tribute and praising Holohans , steller public service.

Then the Poo Hits the fan , when it becomes abundantly clear something stinks about this cosy arrangement.

A. Trinity let's it slip they won't be Paying Tony.

B. Tony not actually resigning

C. Donnelly makes an eejit of himself on National radio (Then goes into Hiding)

D. Robert watt called to explain himself, of course doesn't.

E. Sudden dismay sets in with numerous government TD'S, Ministers and Leadership.

F. Tony appears "Privately" before health committee and finally confirms Watt signed off on this.

G. Leo struggles in the Dail and informs us, Michael Mc Grath " is not happy"

H. The debacle Roles on and John Mc Guinness, chairman of Health Committee not at all happy on morning Ireland.

This Makes the Zappone affair, seem positively appropriate in comparison, I'd say Coveney delighted the spotlight off him for a change.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896560#Comment_118896560

I said "think they are experts". We certainly have no expert around here. Daily the topic changes and it's the same few posters who come rolling in with their internet degree on the topic. Hilarious that even the smallest bit of information in regards to what happens in every day employment on this subject and pure confusion.

How would you know who is or isn't the best person? I would ask if you have a qualification in HR but I am sure I would get an answer saying you have, such is the norm on boards.

Anyway as I said I was just trying to enlighten a few of you on how people are hired in this day & age. Seems I have failed.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896479#Comment_118896479

You should be able to tell me, after all you seem to think you know better than the people who are hired into a number of government roles.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896634#Comment_118896634

I just gave some info on how people are hired. Your response was to try make a joke out of a person working in a restaurant. As I said "Wow just WOW"

Dempo1

Well well , the Taoiseach has spoken.

Secondment is to be "Paused"

"Quite a Mess"

"Dysfunctionality"

Breaking News.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2022/0408/1291137-tony-holohan/

Cluedo Monopoly

So Watt sanctioned the move.

Holohan gets €30,000 more than the highest equivalent role salary in Trinity.

He said he will not be returning to CMO role and yet he is being paid from Dept Health budget.

Oh the optics, you stupid people cant help yourselves in exposing the rot.

New Politics!

.......

An aside but Watt is on €300k himself and received €81,000 pay rise when appointed secretary general of Dept of Health.

Mr McGuinness’s committee, along with the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) examined the issue of senior public sector executives’ in the wake of questions over the processes involved in Mr Watt’s appointment to the Department of Health job on an interim basis in January 2021 pending an open competition for the permanent role.

The committees’ report found that the interim appointment and salary increase were arranged in an “ad hoc fashion following discussions among a small number of senior officials and members of the Government”.

Mr McGrath said on Wednesday that he has considered the report and his intention is to propose the establishment of an independent, external review panel to strengthen the recruitment process for senior public service posts including making recommendations on the process of determining terms and conditions for such jobs.

Oh yes, we believe you 😉

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897003#Comment_118897003

Have we had the "lessons learned" excuse yet?

You would think after the Zappone fiasco they would have learned a lesson. I think this latest fiasco just shows how out of control Watt and the DOH is, To think that they could do something like this and it would just be accepted. Watt is now the problem and the government have only themselves to blame for this.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896844#Comment_118896844

I'd say given the latest development BA that there is no precedent for this kind of sleight of hand and cronyism. What say you today?

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897109#Comment_118897109

Poor Stephen Donnelly won't be happy having to spend the weekend preparing a report for the Taoiseach, God bless his cotton socks 😏

This secondment,( shenanigans) needs to stop now , if it's allowed to proceed it would be an outrage. Only short of Trinity paying the Salary directly can government redeem themselves and I'd doubt Trinity will offer to pay as that in turn will cause uproar within its academic teaching community.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897003#Comment_118897003

Earlier this year when Watt got his massive payrise the FFs were outraged. And yet Watt feels he can do a similar favour!

McGrath didn't use the lessons learned excuse that time, he used the legal excuse...

....................

Fianna Fáil TD Mr McGuinness claimed that the salary increase for the Department of Health job by €81,000 was “a disgraceful decision taken quietly in some back room in Government Buildings”.

Mr McGuinness said: “The public are indeed absolutely outraged and rightly so … but if this was a special arrangement – which it obviously was – there should be no further increases.”

Mr McGrath said Mr McGuinness had made his views known on the issue “But when you are Minister and you are answering questions like the ones being put to me I have to set out what the legal position is and I can’t go beyond that.”

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897161#Comment_118897161

Another right mess.

Cluedo Monopoly

Fourth pay hike for Robert Watt will push his salary over €300k (irishexaminer.com)

Finance Committee chairman and Fianna Fáil TD John McGuinness described the pay increase as “truly outrageous” and said it is time to “stop this nonsense”. 

There is also considerable “frustration” within the Cabinet at Mr Watt’s prolonged refusal to clarify whether he was still waiving the €81,000 increase to his pay last year. 

“It was far from ideal and it is not how we wanted to see things handled,” said one senior source.

Mr McGuinness said there is no reason why Mr Watt should be in receipt of further top-ups when a special case was made for him to be given the €81,000 increase last year. 

Social Democrats leader Catherine Murphy said that far from being an isolated special case, the new salary for Mr Watt has created a new scale for top-tier civil servants which is now “embedded” in the system. She said such increases should not be happening as the rationale for the original €81,000 increase for Mr Watt was that this was an exceptional role.

As the controversy over his salary continues, Mr Watt and Health Minister Stephen Donnelly are in Dubai attending a conference on healthcare.

....

Wake up Ireland, the golden circle is flourishing!

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897171#Comment_118897171

Watt's grubby hands all over this , I still believe Holohan wanted out without loosing Salary and pension. Watt's only too happy to oblige as it was clear Holohan was not happy generally.

Government have created an absolute whopper of a monster, they've essentially gifted a senior servant obscene Salary who is essentially un sackable and free to do what he wants. It's extraordinary state of affairs.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897195#Comment_118897195

Just beggars belief and not even made up 😁 apart from the Trinity Gig, that is

Dempo1

Defenders very shy and quite this morning 🤔

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897256#Comment_118897256

Government internet defence forces are still at the emergency briefing...

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897249#Comment_118897249

It is no only causing trouble in political circles but also in academic circles.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897256#Comment_118897256

It's called having a job 🙄

To be honest it is better fun when I get a min just to read the outrage from all the usual posters 😂 each tripping over each other to put forward how outraged they are.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897345#Comment_118897345

It's much better fun watching you hand wave this away while the hole you're in gets bigger

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897345#Comment_118897345

You are always on about outrage. Can you show examples of this outrage? I see people laughing at the mess the government have made of another position but no outrage or is this just another pathetic attempt at deflection from you which is all that you seem to do on here?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897286#Comment_118897286

Learning on the job, so to speak. 😁

When I read that excuse I knew there was no defending this and the Taoiseach pulling the plug proves me right. Not even FF could stand over this

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897366#Comment_118897366

Really? read the thread and plenty of the outrage. All fuax of course.

how is it a deflection? I am saying I am enjoying reading it. I am not stopping you posting about it at all, I did try to add to the conversation by explaining how people get hired but that seems to cause some stress so I bowed out.

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897371#Comment_118897371

But are you outraged because that is now what is being said? :)

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896389#Comment_118896389

It is also amazing how people fall for the headline, including our politicians, and don't read further down

"Trinity College is bound by public service pay scales although there are exceptions, where academics on similar arrangements to Dr Holohan are paid bigger salaries due to being highly sought after and having globally in-demand academic expertise.

Others, who are both working hospital medical consultants and part-time lecturers, are on higher scales."

So, it is possible for TCD to hire Holohan at a higher salary. In this case, it seems that they short-circuited the procedures for approval.

https://hea.ie/assets/uploads/2017/05/Appendix-5-Framework-for-Departures.pdf

"It will enable universities to attract a person to its academic and research staff, who would, because of exceptional or scarce expertise and/or qualifications, command remuneration higher than the norm and who would not be prepared to work for the university unless so rewarded. "

Note the piece in bold, Holohan, by his experience over the last two years, would be one of the very few with the required exceptional or scarce expertise to carry out research into the public health issues from the pandemic. He has an understanding that nobody outside the very small circle who made those decisions over the last two years could have - the likes of Luke O'Neill etc. do not have his insights to the decisions taken. So maybe less of the snide comments from the "experts" on his qualifications for the job. It is clear that he is more than qualified as I have said. Why would he take a pay cut to do the job when the framework would allow him to keep his salary.

Is such a new post in a university researching the pandemic lessons in regard to public health a good idea? YES

Is Tony Holohan the best candidate for such a role? YES

Should the government pay for such a role to be created in the interests of ensuring that future decisions are better? YES

Were the correct procedures followed? IT SEEMS NOT

That is where we are for anyone with any real cop-on. It would be a really bad outcome if the populist nonsense stopped this appointment from happening. Sadly, if the cynical pile-on from the usual suspects on here is anything to go by, that is a real possibility.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896312#Comment_118896312

Glad to be able to teach you something.

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897379#Comment_118897379

Is this the "learning on the job" response? You do know that the minimum requirement to be a Professor is that the applicant must have a PhD and be peer reviewed. How does a person who has not got a PhD mentor and advise people going for PhD when they haven't been through it themselves? I never said you were stopping I was just calling you out the pathetic phrase of the usual "outrage", it is pathetic and you know it is pathetic especially in this instance. What you do think of the outage in FFG at this appointment?