FF/FG/Green Government - Part 3

BonnieSituation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119202528#Comment_119202528

Ah, there it is.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119202473#Comment_119202473

What does it mean? We have housing and health crises going on many years and getting worse. What does this index mean, we aren't in crises?

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119202528#Comment_119202528

Did he make it worse year on year like every minister we've had for the last decade or so?

Suckit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119202456#Comment_119202456

What is it with you that leaves you incapable of reading anything properly? Just laziness or bent on trying to justify bulsh*t?

Nobody said (three times now) who gives a fck about standard of living etc..

What was said, if you bothered to read any of the posts correctly, was that NOBODY but you and a two or three others, gives a fck about the HDO statistic. It is beyond useless, and literally does absolutely NOTHING for anybody.

I am sure Michael D. will send you an email for giving the perfect example of the type of bullsh*t he is talking about, that everyone else can see.

The President added: "Building homes is what is important.

“It is not to be a star performer for the speculative sector internationally."

Speaking to the Irish Mirror after hearing his comments, Labour’s Ms Moynihan said: “he’s right, it’s more than a crisis, it is a failure.”

You can continue to point out the bullsh*t statistic that was created for bullsh*tters. But be aware, it means absolutely fck all.

Feel free to walk amongst the homeless on the streets, and go to the homeless shelters and tell them all where we are on the HDI.. 🙄

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119203057#Comment_119203057

I just don't have the energy to join in, just put away my Turf 😁 but well done, well done 👌

Gant21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119202731#Comment_119202731

It was a rant of the highest order, he hasn’t a single atom of the ordinary working person in this country.

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119203140#Comment_119203140

None of them have. It's all a game to them.

Suckit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119202508#Comment_119202508

"You mean giving new hard-pressed parents some helpful and essential items that will help with a) raising a new baby and b) the cost of living?

Yea, shame on them."

Again, get some help with reading the whole post if that's what's getting you. Nobody claimed 'shame on them' etc. It's just a nonsense expense at a time when we shouldn't be spending on nonsense/it could be better spent.

I'm surprised Maryanne isn't on here telling us that her friend raised 10 kids using hand me downs that they got free from an oxfam shop, with a potato sack for a sleeping bag.

"Again, it's a reasonable point of view if you think it's a waste of money, but you cannot turn around and then say the government should spend more on housing, health, education etc...

That just makes you a massive hypocrite because you are not interested in the policy, or the detail, you just want to give out and throw some mud."

Of course I can, and no it doesn't. How would that mean I am not interested? The baby box is bullshit gesture politics. That is all it is. There is, as mentioned plenty of better ways that money should be spent.

"Also, many countries do a "Baby Bundle" If you looked at the video you will see that Scotland does one and its in the actual video."

Yeah, again with the "Other countries do it.." - and I saw that. They started in 2017. Not during times like these when everyone is feeling the pinch, and the money could be better spent elsewhere. 'Baby bundles' 🙄.

"Now, are you going to vote for a party that is going to curb this spending, because all the parties in the Dail, from Labour, SF, SD, PBP etc.... would spend waaaaaay more than FF and FG and the Greens....."

Spending waaaaaay more than FG??? I doubt it.. How much has the childrens hospital alone, cost so far? And the corruption is rampant, are you taking those spendings into account, as 'the unaccountables' aren't. They seem to pick and choose what would be regarded as an expense.

"So who are you going to vote for to cut down the deficit?"

It won't be FFGG, that you have my word on.

Suckit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119202801#Comment_119202801

Define 'Gigantic' - to me it would mean a very sizable portion, and would leave very little of the blame on anyone or anything else.

shirrup

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119202528#Comment_119202528

Eamon Ryan and Michael Martin were ministers in the last government that overseen the single most severe financial meltdown of this states history, including a massive property, a banking meltdown, which resulted in mass emigration and suicides of many.

2022. There's a housing crisis, health is a disaster and there's a cost of living crisis.

Michael Martin and Eamon Ryan are govt ministers once again too.

Lets blame the president though. That's a marvelous idea.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119203954#Comment_119203954

Hey, Ireland is 8th in Top of the Pop's and 2 in Jackie magazine. Show some respect. G'wan with your real world problems!

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204054#Comment_119204054

Don't forget the highest nurses to bed ratio in the known universe.

Dempo1

The Navan Hospital debacle is somewhat embarrassing, HSE announce downgrading, only to be told, Hang on by Stephen Donnelly, Jesus wept who's in charge here 🙄

Great fun on the Late Debate, FG fielded Joe O Reilly, Senator and my god what a train crash, the Panel actually spent the entire show giggling at him

AlmightyCushion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119203954#Comment_119203954

Eamon Ryan only got in to Government after the 2007 election. By that stage, the damage was already done. You can't really blame him for the financial crisis at the time.

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204197#Comment_119204197

Bit like what happens on here when supporters of FFG stick up things like ranked 8th in this or ranked 2nd in that as a defence for has been an utter car wreck of a government.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204221#Comment_119204221

O, I had a back and forth over over irrelevant old reports, exhausting but a little amusing 😉

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119202669#Comment_119202669

It actually measures a lot of those things you mentioned, you just cannot see the wood from the trees.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119202966#Comment_119202966

Index gives context. Try it sometime when you come up for air.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119203244#Comment_119203244

.Yeah, again with the "Other countries do it.." - and I saw that. They started in 2017. Not during times like these when everyone is feeling the pinch, and the money could be better spent elsewhere. 'Baby bundles'

Give out about the cost of living and that people are feeling the pinch..

Government offers a baby bundle to help with the cost of having a new baby for parents who are feeling the pinch

Give out about the baby bundle being a waste of money

Spending waaaaaay more than FG??? I doubt it.. How much has the childrens hospital alone, cost so far? And the corruption is rampant, are you taking those spendings into account, as 'the unaccountables' aren't. They seem to pick and choose what would be regarded as an expense.

Its like dial a soundbite here.

What corruption are we talking about exactly? Name specific cases.

It won't be FFGG, that you have my word on.

So you wont answer the question. Thought so :)

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204197#Comment_119204197

So do you want the Navan hospital to close or do you want the government to interfere and keep it open?

Cant have both now!

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204197#Comment_119204197

Generally speaking these are no win situations. People decry political interference until they want it and then they demand it no matter the realities.

Suckit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204336#Comment_119204336

Funny you using that idiom (incorrectly), with all the things you can't see when they are pointed out and explained to you. Or is that refusal?

But also to note, back to that nonsense HDI. The statistic itself is meaningless, being used as some sort of trophy by FFG.

Funny how it goes unmentioned that the European countries that Ireland leap frogged are all having refugee problems. Two of them having warned Ireland about what may happen, but it went largely ignored.

Finland was 2nd in the 2014 report and find themselves down to 11th in the 2019 (2020) report. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016885101830681X

Germany (now 6th) and Sweden (now 7th) were joint 3rd - I don't think that they need explaining.

Netherlands were joint 1st with Norway (now joint 8th with Australia) - https://borgenproject.org/facts-about-refugees-in-the-netherlands/

Australia (not in Europe) was joint 2nd (now joint 8th)

Ireland were 7th.

So it is very very likely, that whoever is in government when your beloved HDI report next comes out, that Ireland will have dropped or plummeted down the chart after we have finished taking in the all of the Refugees our infrastructure can't handle.

EDITED - to add current positions.

Suckit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204361#Comment_119204361

Again with the inability to properly read posts. It is getting tiresome, so I will respond to this post with me pointing out yet again, what was actually said, but I won't be explaining everything to you in baby steps from now on.

"Give out about the cost of living and that people are feeling the pinch..

Government offers a baby bundle to help with the cost of having a new baby for parents who are feeling the pinch

Give out about the baby bundle being a waste of money"

You actually singled out the sentence to quote me, and still didn't read it properly. What I said was - "and the money could be better spent elsewhere". It could. That is obvious. Baby bundles is as mentioned already, gesture politics. Bullshit that FG think makes them look good, and as if they are actually doing something, similar to virtue signalling. But equally bullshitty.

" Its like dial a soundbite here.

What corruption are we talking about exactly? Name specific cases."

Cronyism, Chumocracy, are both forms of corruption imo. Lowry and the Esat deal (IIRC Judge Moriarty agreed that Lowry had interfered enough in that) I mean, there are many more, but enough to make my point there. I can't comment on the ongoing suspected criminal case so I won't. Plenty for FF too. So it will be difficult to squander more money than either of those.

"So you wont answer the question. Thought so :)"

I did answer your question. Unlike yourself and others on these forums I don't run away/avoid questions, only to pop up a while later when you think they are forgotten about. Or when you pretend not to read them.. 🙄

I won't add the obligatory giant picture like yourself has been doing, because it really adds nothing to the discussion. You're just short of colouring them in, which you may start to do the next time you are free, and hiding from another question.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204340#Comment_119204340

So nothing. Figured.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204361#Comment_119204361

The baby bundle idea is great if its for low income people.

People, based on the record of FF/FG, don't believe they are that incompetent. Still waiting on siteserv.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204365#Comment_119204365

The comment was regarding who's in charge. Ministers overriding decisions their colleagues make is a sign of a reactive government, reactive to decisions in their own area, they seem or claim to be unaware of. As I say Noonan and siteserv still to come. Ministers using ignorance of their own department to hide their blushes, if not corruption, means **** government.

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119202426#Comment_119202426

We are talking about a housing crisis not refugees. Ladies and gentlemen the deflection has begun.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204365#Comment_119204365

There's not been any talk of "Closure Actually " there's, been hints, leaks, incoherence, dilly dallying by the HSE about downgrading . HSE finallly plucked up the courage to announce their intentions yesterday, the usual senior heads sent out to bat.

Within minutes, Minister Donnelly and local politicians out , seething with anger. We then hear again how irrelevant the HSE and DOH think Donnelly is , by confirmation he'd not been informed of the decision nor had government signed off on it . (Where have we heard this before 🤔🤔)

So what I'd actually like is for Minister Donnelly to ask of himself, is it finallly time to Go 🤔

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204380#Comment_119204380

Perhaps but my sense has been people have been infact crying out for political leadership on this issue when all the while Donnelly in particular was in essence not even aware of the HSE's final decision (We've been hear before) and the Minister is clearly neither respected or taken seriously by the HSE & the DOH or it would seem his own government colleagues for that matter.

As I said, it's particularly embarrassing and after a major announcement after years of dragging of feet only for Said decision to be stalled because of a Minister belatedly coming to the party , so to speak.

Dempo1

"Ministers left Furious" 😳 , "Ministers left Embarrassed " should be the headline "

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/higgins-crossed-line-in-housing-policy-attack-say-furious-ministers-41754031.html

I was scoffed at when I said this would go as high as €3 billion at the time government estimated it would be €1.2 Billion, it would seem the kicking the can down the road hasn't gone quite to plan ( or has it 🤔 😉)

My question now , how long is it actually going to take , with contractors walking away from contracts, Supplies , Materials prices rises daily, shortage of construction workers , I'd wager some owners won't see a new block laid for years ( I could be cynical and suggest, this is actually what government are hoping for )

https://www.irishtimes.com/environment/2022/06/15/ministers-warned-that-cost-of-defective-block-scheme-could-rise-to-36bn-due-to-inflation/

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204660#Comment_119204660

higgins is bang on, the financialisation of our property markets has completely failed, and is now in a state of collapse, its over!

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204674#Comment_119204674

Yep , he's someone I don't particularly like if I'm being totally honest but my word he hit the nail on the head , Government Seething this morning and there's not a thing they can do, they've quite enough on their plate in terms of trouble without going up against a very popular president 😏

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204677#Comment_119204677

hes an extraordinary intelligent man, hes gets it, he has always gotten it, we re in a rapid state of collapse, politically, economically, socially and environmentally, and he knows it, and he knows how we ve gotten to here!

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204682#Comment_119204682

I agree completely, wait for the "He over stepped the mark, constitutional crisis palaver" from the usual suspects.

Good I say, about time some one spoke truth

Government can huff and Puff all they like , they should be utterly ashamed of themselves, not just on this crisis, but many more , they'd be very wise, to put up, shut up and get their act together, albeit, I suspect its far to late .

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204691#Comment_119204691

...its an incredible complicated situation we ve found ourselves in, this is wide scale global ideological collapse, and we dont know what to do about it, most probably havent accepted this yet, hence our default thinking in regards trying to resolve these issues, these approaches will never work, they were never gonna work, but we havent truly accepted this yet.....

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204336#Comment_119204336

Except of course it deosnt,and your lying as per usual,it measure broad outcomes not underlying data of day-to-day measures...

Its specficically noted for ignoring poverty levels,to concentrate on average income,nowhere within its underlying data deos it examine employment laws,

Its health index,is simply a measure of life expecntancy,and ignores the obsity epidemic in the state

It deosnt mention anywhere atal lobbying levels,or private enterprise interference in running the state/state services,which always end in a horror show

Its educational index measures expected educational obtainment/length,but deosnt brush on literacy levels/access to higher level education or the utter horror show that is the education levels within ethic minority here.

Again,what exactly do you think,makes this a good barometer of government performance?

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204694#Comment_119204694

You make some excellent points , I'd just add that at a very basic Level, even those with limited economic and political knowledge could see a lot of what's occurring right now happening for quite some time and the writing has been on the wall for a long time.

The Ukranian crisis has to an extent had some impact but there are those who'll have us believe, our many crisis at home only started last March and its beggar's belief frankly. That crisis only exasperated and sped up the urgency in dealing with numerous crisis at home and its abundantly clear Government have no answers.

There's not just astonishing incompetence at Government level, Senior Civil servants, Certain Sectors and especially their representative bodies etc have had their heads in the sand and for quite some time.

What has galled me most is the Virtue signalling on the world stage, particularly Leo, MM and Coveney who've essentially being ignoring the numerous elephants in the Room called Ireland for months now.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204708#Comment_119204708

...i actually feel some what sorry for our politicians, and all those that you mentioned, i do believe most are actually very genuine people, actually do want to resolve these issues, and truly believe their beliefs and ideologies can and will do it, but its clearly obvious, they wont, period, in fact theyre making it far worse, and have in fact caused our current situation! its very messy stuff, with no real easy solutions, but at least there are potential solutions out there, but....

Gant21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204708#Comment_119204708

Some people choose to want to be in a crisis let’s not forget that. You can’t be expecting the government to be giving you everything in life.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204714#Comment_119204714

Honestly, I did have sympathy at one time, actually emailed Leo to congratulate him early on in the handling of the Pandemic, MM dies seem to be Genuine with an ability to show Empathy, Never liked nor respected Coveney if I'm being honest.

But something happened, I can't explain it, they briefly showed solidarity with the people but my god, especially Leo just lost any sense of reality , MM seriously just seems to be counting down the clock and Coveney (well I'll be charitable as its early) , Eamonn Ryan, again seems the decent type but so out of his depth , it's actually alarming.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204738#Comment_119204738

And here we go 🙄🙄, their off .

So you believe people choose to be in a crisis, A, that's great, I'm happy for them. I presume your referring to all those scroungers, layabout, Medical card holding, good for nothing cohort you obsess about 🤔

The vast, vast majority certainly don't choose to be in a crisis and especially the current ones, to many to list off.

But your entitled to believe what you believe, doesn't mean I or many others have to agree with your Grim views on life in Ireland.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204738#Comment_119204738

...again, this is a myth, we dont all have the same opportunities in life, and this accelerates in an environment of rapidly rising wealth inequality, as we re currently experiencing..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204742#Comment_119204742

completely agree, ryans comment is just disturbing at this stage, our political class have virtually completely disconnected from the average person, if you think the average person on the average wage, or even more, can simply just rock up to the welfare office and..... now thats truly disturbing stuff! baring in mind, we re currently in off peak energy season, and we can all see whats gonna happen during peak, im pretty sure the average child can also see this to!

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204761#Comment_119204761

The mind Boggles at times 😉

Why the most vulnerable have to be kicked in order to try and score points, utterly baffles and troubles me.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204768#Comment_119204768

...but the reality is, its not just the most vulnerable now, this is accelerating well into the middle classes, this is really serious stuff now!

Gant21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204771#Comment_119204771

The middle class is paying for it in working taxes.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204771#Comment_119204771

You are of course 100% correct.

I've been reasonably fortunate in life, had a long career, bought a house, travelled the world working etc.

I saw something quite eye opening during the pandemic across boards, particularly every day, ordinary decent, hard working people suffer, lost of Job, Isolation, medical challenges (I have my own) reach out for the first time in their lives.

My small contribution was learning a little about what supports are out there for people, especially SW supports and understanding the complexites around what is available, how to get info. I'm no expert, but took the time to show a little compassion and assist were I could, other more experienced users also helped and I learned from them, many people looking for advice and support for the first time in their lives and as you say, not just the vulnerable.

I reckon at one stage I was getting 50 pm"s a week and all from people I don't know and will likely never meet. At the same time, some quite astonishing vitriol across numerous threads which thankfully the majority called out.

There's now a legacy issue from the pandemic (Government did a reasonable job) but add the cost of living, housing and health care crisis, they seriously need to look at their priorities.

I'm not blaming government solely for the current crisis, but I do fear they've not got real grasp of how bad things are for many, many, many people.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204812#Comment_119204812

...yes we know this, this is in fact why we are where we are, i.e. taxation and debt has primarily fallen on the middle classes, this has now reached a peak, and now we re no longer capable of playing this game, its over! they are tapped out, and all of our most critical needs are in rapid decline, it truly is over, the only solution is rapidly increasing deficit spending, increasing taxation on wealth, and a rapid re-distributing of this wealth, or everything collapses!

CarProblem

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119197651#Comment_119197651

unless and until people like you have a creible alternative to put to those FF/FG canvassers, as in "I'm going to vote for Renua/Libertas/whoever; they will cut my taxes" I don't believe they will take you seriously.

I'd agree that may well be the party attitude - however looking at actual election results and polls its a huge error. For FG in particular chasing people who will never vote for the party, trying to out left the left, out woke the woke isn't working and is simply alienating what should be the core of its vote. I'm an ex member of the party yet simply can't countenance voting for FG. There is a crazy lack of alternative but to repeat myself: I cross off parties that have behaved abhorrently in government before I cross off those I think (in some cases know) will

To reiterate I'll simply be stating why i won't be voting for FF/FG and will say I'm not interested in hearing the "but SF" defence.

IMO they will go away from your doorstep still thinking to themselves "When push comes to shove in the ballot box he's still going to tick FF or FG as (from his POV) the least bad of a terrible lot. Or he won't vote, which we can live with."

Again I'd say that is the attitude, but per the above - huge mistake IMO. I see it all the time. Politicians themselves, supporters on here, even work colleagues who wouldn't be supporters of any party - some form of "but SF", yeah we're sh!t but the alternative etc etc. Even work colleagues once remarked to me after criticism of the government - "Flip - never had you flagged as a shinner". Its nonsensical but one of the many reasons FG in particular is so low in the polls

Gant21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119204756#Comment_119204756

I have no grim views of Ireland, it’s the lads with too much time on their hands have maybe. Don’t be categorising my views or what I say to suit your trail of thought.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119205307#Comment_119205307

Apologies, Grim views on a specific cohorts, generally the marginalised, vulnerable, ill, struggling, I should have been more specific, I do apologise, your posts are available for all to see as to is your alarming views generally.

Please accept my sincerest apologies for not being clearer.

Cluedo Monopoly

I found this article very telling.

President Michael D Higgins ‘crossed line’ in housing policy attack, say furious ministers - Independent.ie

President Michael D Higgins ‘crossed line’ in housing policy attack, say furious ministers

One minister said...

...by senior coalition figures.

One Fianna Fáil source...

...a coalition source said.

--------------------------------------------

Who are ye? What's will all the anonymity? Come out and say who you are and what you think. Cowards.

At least Leo said it is the President’s “prerogative” to speak out.

Michael D has rattled them all and I am delighted.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119205338#Comment_119205338

...of course theyre furious, acceptance of party failure is unacceptable at party level