FF/FG/Green Government - Part 3

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119375625#Comment_119375625

Reservoir Dogs.

Cluedo Monopoly

Well said.

Is it time to ask will the last person out of rural Ireland please switch off the lights? - Independent.ie

“AIB: we back brave.” Well, there was nothing brave about the cowardly decision to effectively close off 70 bank branches around the country, not bother to explain it and then run away once the heat came on.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119378737#Comment_119378737

The problem with FG's approach is that the electorate is changing. That whole Middle Ireland thing was, I think, a Sindo creation of Eoghan Harris that was not really based on any evidence. The opinion polls try to break down the demographics along economic grounds and that's where the whole Middle Ireland thing runs into problems. With the age demographics as a layer over that, the support for anyone but FF/FG/Lab is gaining. SF is the recipient of most of that support. The age demographics is the important one because it is linked to older voters having children who cannot buy or rent. In normal times, those voters would have been solid FF/FG voters but that's beginning to change. If it accelerates before the next GE than all bets are off for the survival of FF and FG with anything close to their current seat counts. The pensions thing is going to add to that problem. And then there's the Border Poll issue.

There's a second order possibility (not a short term problem) that will be caused by the fragmentation of the conservative FF and FG vote. It could result in a new Right of centre party. It wouldn't be PDs 2.0 as the PDs were only ever Provisional Fianna Fail. There's a relatively untapped conservative vote that's been lost in the noise of the political incompetence and virtue sigalling of FF/FG.

Regards...jmcc

jmcc

Come out, ye Black and Tans. :)

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/group-of-fine-gael-tds-and-senators-claim-farmers-and-rural-ireland-being-scapegoated-41862354.html

Now, even the FGers are revolting.

Regards...jmcc

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119378837#Comment_119378837

I'm beginning to think this government won't last till September, let alone December 😁

Night all

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119378737#Comment_119378737

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119378823#Comment_119378823

FG and FF have lost their identities I think, they don't know what they stand for anymore...right, left centre etc, they are just trying to survive and have no ideological/core principles base. That makes it very easy for support to wander. And it has.

I don't think SF have a clear offering either but what is happening is, people are saying 'well let's give them a go, they can't be any worse'.

The more FF FG try to say they will be worse the more support they seem to lose. A decent leader could formulate a way out, but neither of them seem to know how. The 18 page dossier seems to have died on it's feet.

What do they do now, get dirtier or lose the siege mentality and offer something people can get behind?

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119378872#Comment_119378872

FF was able to get away with having a very nebulous identity in that it became all things to all people. That's because it was a party that had a very wide support. It lost that from Ahern onwards. FG never had that kind of broad appeal to voters. (Don't think that FG was ever given a majority because the electorate just didn't trust them.) SF is becoming like the old FF. FG should consider making Jennifer O'Carroll McNeill leader (she's a lot more academically qualified than some of the others) rather than Helen McEntee. Paschal Donohoe and Simon Coveney might also want to be leader (less sure). Coveney might not want to be leader though given how the FG parliamentary party installed Varadkar instead of him. Had he, rather than the FG politburo candidate Varadkar, been FG leader, I don't think that FG would be quite so low polls and the 2020 GE might have gone a lot better.

The big killer for FG is the sense of entitlement combined with a Dunning-Kruger effect. The first irritates voters. The second, when FG screws up even simple things in government, makes voters angry enough to not vote FG again. FG is more than capable of destroying itself without any help from FF. Unless it gets rid of Varadkar, it probably will.

Regards...jmcc

skimpydoo

@brokenangel you claim to have never voted FG, so are you not complaining about their AIB skullduggery? FG are making sure FF take all the heat while Pascal the Rascal and Leo the Leak lie low.

It is also worth noting that the AIB fiasco has more or less finished off Pascal the Rascal's chances of becoming FG leader.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119378415#Comment_119378415

I completely agree and that's why the FF/FG parties need to go, at least for a few terms.

They are making all their crises worse and have no regard for the damage they do and must be stopped.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119378837#Comment_119378837

Very Republican...GOP attitude. Denying climate issues to suit themselves.

FF and FG have tied a hand behind their own backs. They always got in by **** on the other. Now they no longer have that. The floating votes aren't likely to be back anytime soon.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119378849#Comment_119378849

Is that last September you were predicting their demise for?

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379024#Comment_119379024

Your still up Blanch , how do you do it , remarkable. Actually this September, but now that remind me it looked pretty precarious last September too, Leaks, Makey uppy jobs , a certain matter I won't re hash , must be a seasonal thing I guess but MM was determined to continue being undermined in pursuit of completing his Term as Taoiseach no matter how underhanded FG was . I admire his stamina albeit he's destroying FF with every day he spends as Taoiseach.

I was quite surprised at the little indignation about those pesky FG backbenchers stirring it in the background, seems the Opposition only face the wrath of deflection when they question Government policy, Funny old world it is .

Night night

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379041#Comment_119379041

Watching a stream of the Arsenal Chelsea game so yes, still up, unusual for me, don't be on here much during free time, but not much to do during half time.

xxxxxxl

In July 2021, it was announced that Zappone was to be appointed to the newly created position of "Special Envoy to the UN for Freedom of Opinion and Expression".

This been filled yet it was a very important position IIRC. Anyone see the job advertised ? We should do what the UK do an make people hand over a 2nd passport. If you want to represent Ireland then do it as Irish.

Renunciation of U.S. citizenship is final and irrevocable. You lose citizenship for the rest of your lifetime. There are no temporary renunciations or options to re-acquire U.S. citizenship. Once you renounce, you can never resume your citizenship.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119377572#Comment_119377572

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119378945#Comment_119378945

Already answered above

If anything if you predict Pascal won’t be leader then he probably will be.

The seemingly lack of knowledge of the population is alarming by some, proved by the thread which backfired on you and now the AIB cashless which people are not talking about the government.

As I said you would be naive to think that AIB are not going to introduce a cut down version and opinion seems to be get rid of cash. I totally support that and will stop tax dodging which became visible during covid

if this was a decent political thread that would be the discussion, not calling TD names like “Leo the leak” 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️ That should be left with the fake accounts on Twitter

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379019#Comment_119379019

So you want to block housing and you blame FF, FG and Greens?

More point the finger politics. Time you took responsibility for your actions.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379024#Comment_119379024

If they predicted the government is going to last the term I would be worried. As I said after the motion the government are in a stronger position than they have ever been.

The actual discussion on AIB has very little to do with government and more a discussion of ireland should move away from cash, certainly nothing to suggest an election. Most people seem to agree we should remove cash. The amount of tax dodging would be resolved as well

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379203#Comment_119379203

 government are in a stronger position than they have ever been.

That's a funny start to my Sunday, as the givernment pick up the pieces of another round of bungling and chaos.

Dempo1

Paschal now confirming he was "Informed" a few hours before AIB's announcement, I'm sensing Swiss cheese excuses , lots of holes so to speak.

We know now AIB's plans were actually known for days by DOF official's.

Even giving some leeway to Paschal, it's simply beggar's belief he had absolutely no knowledge of the proposal until hours before it was announced.

That's bad enough as it is, he then remained silent for days before and after , the "Blindsiding" story was allowed to grow legs , the people, Sean Fleming and Taoiseach were actually the ones actually Blindsided because up to and after silly shape throwing by two FF politicians ,Paschal knew his department was informed .

Days later the pass the book games commenced , extraordinary excuses and this morning it's being revealed Paschal only informed hours before announcement.

What a complete crock of Poo.

More scapegoating of civil servants anticipated.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/paschal-donohoes-officials-knew-of-aib-plan-to-make-70-branches-cashless-four-days-before-he-did-41862961.html

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379326#Comment_119379326

Opposition Finance spokesperson is on the News At One, should be worth a listen to see how far this will run.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379343#Comment_119379343

O, I'll have to listen in , I believe they are doing a feature on Swiss cheese also 😁

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119378356#Comment_119378356

It's called politics which is good for the country. Neither wanted SF to get in, so a Tallaght strategy was the only remaining option. Despite the dopey yearnings of some FF TDs the party does not like SF, through history and now through competition for their nationalist identity. That FF deal also did show us becoming a more typical European profile, not necessarily in the left/right dichotomy but in the sense that pretty much any party can make deals with anyone else. It may have caused grief with FF but the gamble, then as now was to reap some of the rewards. Their recovery in seats is evidence of that.

I don't know why people keep writing off the Greens. This is not post-2008 and the Greens really are a party of this present moment and the future. Nobody credibly promotes the policies they do and we need them. They also have a lot of appeal, in the very youngest of voters. Like every other party they have purists who want to protect their brand but this Dail arithmetic about pragmatism. There is every chance they can hold most if not all of their seats.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379362#Comment_119379362

But hang on for a Moment, FFG constantly throwing mud about the "Reluctance " of SF to go into government and yet conspired to include an unprecedented alliance to stop them forming a government 🤔 they can't have cake and eat it .

Yes it's politics, but to then misrepresent by way of tiresome mud slinging, what their own agenda is and has been is a little Rich 🤔

IMO

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379372#Comment_119379372

Up until the last election SF's instant move was to run straight for the Opposition bench, that's reluctance writ large. They are also on record as wanting to be the majority party in a government and that's still not likely. Nobody is actively stopping them. If they can get seats they can go and do deals but they are pretty incompatible with FG on policies and quite probably the same with both FF and the Greens. We now know there are many possible government deals that do not involve SF just as there are quite a few that do not involve the incumbents.

The difference though is that some are more prepared to do deals and are more capable of it. SF have not not shown any willingness so far but have demonstrated an extraordinary ability to complain about others not wanting to do deals with them.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379362#Comment_119379362

People are not writing off the Greens, a certain group of supporters are trying to tell everyone to write off the Greens.

As I said if anything the greens should go more hardcore and push for more Green agenda because that is what their supporters wants. The people that vote for the Greens have no interest in burning turf and that sort of carry on. Cash? well creating cash and moving it around, keeping it safe etc is just one huge CO2 creation.

The problem with the flip flop party is they stand for nothing now. What exactly is the agenda? well it is "whatever way the wind blows"

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379405#Comment_119379405

That may be so , but I don't believe, realistically SF had any chance of forming or being part of a government prior to last GE, the numbers just were not there , I'm specifically referring to last GE and I just feel it a little Rich FFG continously accusing SF of avoiding going into government when it's abundantly clear FFG Actively conspired to keep them out . Ultimately a decision that is essentially destroying both IMO.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379405#Comment_119379405

with the amount of abuse fired out in the last two years I don't see any FG, FF or Green party members with much interest in joining a coalition with SF. Especially not the supporters who have been seen the brunt of the abuse online.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379458#Comment_119379458

Well, voters vote for TDs who vote for Taoiseach who forms a government. If you don't get enough votes there's no government.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379473#Comment_119379473

Of course true but so was the attempts to keep SF out of government but as you say, that's politics.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379494#Comment_119379494

Not being able to do deals keeps you out of government. As observed above there is now such antipathy between SF and FF/FG that even exploratory talks would not even be possible. On top of that the two traditional parties could probably ride out a temporary deal with SF by spinning it as that best for country stuff, SF really could not, having spent the last decade telling their voters they want FF and FG out.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379509#Comment_119379509

I think we all understand this , but again, my point , FFG conspired to keep SF out of government, that my point and they constantly throw mud saying SF avoided going into Government, Cake and eating it, so to speak .

Dempo1

Yesterday we heard about , Gardai, Teachers, Nurses not being able to afford/get a mortgage on the average house in Dublin.

We of course know they are not alone .

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/buying-a-home-is-now-out-of-reach-for-the-average-worker-new-figures-show-41861409.html

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379509#Comment_119379509

Change leaders in FF and FG and everything changes. This coalition was a cling to power. As was the C&S. If polling turns out to be what happens at a GE the game is up for the power swap. Martin will be gone and a new leader of FF will have a choice to make, continue the crippling alliances or to take FF back towards it's republican roots. There is no doubt about it now, there is division in FF about that and where Martin is taking them.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379516#Comment_119379516

I don't think they did and I tend to view the FF approach since 2016 as reluctant pragmatism and it has worked for them in a way as a form of rehabilitation for 2008 and now as an opportunity to do things in government. It may or may not work out for them in seats at the GE. I do find the SF stance on both amusing where on the one hand they sell themselves as the alternative and constantly talk about how bad the other two are and then they complain they won't even discuss going into government with them. At this stage there should be an acceptance that they will not be part of a government involving FF or FG.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119378849#Comment_119378849

I don't agree. The AIB disaster will not bring down the government. It's super fodder for a GE.Next campaign down the line but it wont bring it down.

We are now in Dail holiday and the FF/FG rebels can waffle all they want but they know their seats are in jeopardy if they pull the plug. We may see Martin replaced after FG take over the helm but that will be it. They would be foolish to look for an election given those poll numbers.

So we should be safe into winter and the transition and no FFG leader will want an election in winter.

Q2 2023 might be another risky period but I really hope this government does full term or at least get to 2024. They will have a lot to answer for if we head into a deep recession and people realise how hamstrung we are with the massive national debt and already appalling services. And let's see how all their housing and climate "plans" work out first.

The opposition would be silly to force an election when the polls are only going one way.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379555#Comment_119379555

We'll agree to disagree then, it's how I saw what happened, I of course understand its politics and of course Jibes go both ways, just feel it a little disingenuous of FFG to keep bring this Reluctance, Avoidance of SF to go into government IMO.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379520#Comment_119379520

Yeah, that's a CB issue and they absolutely won't budge on it. Too much memory of the massive and ongoing financial problems post-2008. It will need need inventive solutions from the government of the day into the future to address it.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379549#Comment_119379549

There is no question that this coalition has produced tensions all round but they need to hang in until at least 2024, in the hope of a better housing solution, as an election before then just loses them lots of seats. With Leo about to take the top seat again I don't think FG will be inclined to change just yet, but it could be a good time, when he does, for FF to get a new leader bedded in before an election.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379597#Comment_119379597

Completely agree.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379597#Comment_119379597

....who will take them in a new direction. Whoever it is, has to IMO or they will decline further. If people want FG they'll vote FG, FF aping them is pointless and destructive.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379573#Comment_119379573

I don't believe it will either but a collection of deeds of daring do, miss steps , increasing tensions etc may , I was being a little cheeky in my predictions.

Personally I felt AIB'S decision a none story to start with, it's how it's been handled or should I say not been handled is the extraordinary aspect of this story and its astonishing the ineptitude, lack of communication that is evident , I also have my sneaking suspicions about Teflon Paschals silence for a number of days after the Story broke 😏

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379581#Comment_119379581

...its partly a cb issue, but the whole process of financializing our property markets has failed, and is now in a state of collapse, we re also not the only country currently experiencing this collapse....

Irelandsnumberone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379670#Comment_119379670

Paschal seems have to have kept MM and FF in the dark over the decision. Very sneaky stuff from FG. I don't know how the FF TDs put up with them

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379807#Comment_119379807

Indeed and this the point I'm most curious about , all very "Sinister " 😏

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379649#Comment_119379649

This suggests there is no appetite for that but there are some questions about internal issues and the question is who can actually lead them.

https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2022/07/23/concern-in-fianna-fail-about-poor-polls-but-no-mood-for-early-leadership-change/

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379854#Comment_119379854

No challenger.... until there is one, and that there will be one is inevitable.

Martin has had a fair go and cannot get their fortunes on an even keel, he'll be toxic leading them into another GE. What's the man who claimed he would never coalesce with FG going to do to offer something different?

I think anything he says will be torn apart and ridiculed and I think the backbenchers know this only too well. He's toxic.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379836#Comment_119379836

The game of “find the political party” after the election proved unsuccessful for all parties including PBP

Rememeber the Greens actually managed to meet them before they disappeared

Its not like their supporters are constantly trying to rewrite history, you would think they are embarrassed about the parties history

😂😂

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379193#Comment_119379193

I only have issue with some of the NIMBYism, on the whole the opposition block bad deals. Long may it continue.

I was quite clear in my last response to you. Its FF/FG/Green that are foisting money making schemes for private concerns, on to housing. I don't like that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379326#Comment_119379326

Even giving some leeway to Paschal, it's simply beggar's belief he had absolutely no knowledge of the proposal until hours before it was announced.

Its the oldest trick in the FF/FG book, 'I wasn't aware of the massive move of concern to the public, within my department'.

Noonan used it a number of times.

Never mind the housing minister not being responsible for housing, they don't even take responsibility for their actual department. 'Slippery people' as Talking Heads sang about.

All the top contenders for the crown are damaged goods.

brokenangel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379934#Comment_119379934

You said you are going to block houses. No explanation required

Irelandsnumberone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379941#Comment_119379941

You were fine with department s objecting to housing when it was brought up yesterday.

FF/FG objections good everyone else objections bad.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119379941#Comment_119379941

You are spinning lies.

You know what I said, as I've repeated it. You keep looking to add your own fictional twist.