FF/FG/Green Government - Part 3

US3

Leo said FF have pulled their taxation and welfare budget straight out of SF manefesto. Interesting

https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2022/09/15/taoiseach-disagrees-with-tanaistes-sinn-fein-comment-about-taxation-report/

shirrup

When will FG learn that Leo's fixation on Sinn Féin is borderline unhealthy and unhinged?

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/member-of-commission-on-taxation-stunned-and-disappointed-at-varadkar-sinn-fein-manifesto-comments-41992882.html

The Tánaiste is now embroiled in a growing row after he said that some of the commission's recommendations were “straight out of the Sinn Féin manifesto”.

After Taoiseach Micheál Martin said he did not agree with those remarks, John-Mark McCafferty, the chief executive of Threshold, said the Tánaiste's tone and response to some of its recommendations was not helpful.

"I am stunned am stunned and disappointed," he said.

The housing charity boss questioned whether people would be willing to serve on government-appointed commissions in the future if this was how senior politicians responded to their findings.

He is after rattling a number of cages today with that comment, he's a serious dead weight to the party. Varadkar will be the main reason FG will get absolutely obliterated in the next election. He's toxic.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119623645#Comment_119623645

It id worrying that it was in the Indo because, at times, it can be the Daily Blueshirt. However, it is Hugh O'Conell rather than one of the other Indo jouros and it is quite a scoop. FF, under Martin, has essentially lost its identity (apparently a topic at the FF think-in) and has become completely subservient to FG. This might be an attempt to gain headlines for FF and to assert some kind of non-FG identity for the party. What it will remind the electorate of is that when things went to Hell in 2008 and people lost their homes and businesses, these FFers didn't suffer at all and got big payoffs and pensions.

Regards...jmcc

fliball123

I have a feeling this last budget is a give away spend for all we will be spending over 90Billion next year that is an incredible figure for a population of a little over 5 million with less than half of that working. I have a horrible feeling FF/G are greasing up the ball for a horrible side ways hospital pass to the shinners. I dont like the shinners always voted FG but I fear there will be a split engineered between these 2 parties in the next 12 months as the finances are blown this last budget will be the last nice one for a long time and Mary Lou will be the one left to give the bad news for the next number of years. If I wasn't so disgusted by our political overlords I would be very impressed by their political nuance.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119622080#Comment_119622080

You seem to thnk that you are qualified to lecture journalists on Journalism and now you are waffling about reading newspaper articles and drawing the "right" conclusions. To paraphrase the words of Ricky Roma from the movie "Glengarry Glen Ross", why don't you buy us a pack of gum so you can show us how to chew it. Your analysis of Journalism is, in my opinion, non-expert. Your analysis of politics is, to say the least, unthinkingly partisan.

This is a very serious issue for FF and it keeps reminding the electorate of FF's past. It wasn't bad enough that Martin left the whole Troy Story thing fester for weeks but now he wants to rehabilitate Bertie Ahern. FF has, under Martin's leadership, lost its identity and become subservient to FG. FF seems to be tearing itself apart with an identity crisis but all you FFG supporters are focused on is SF. And there's still the Donohoe/McGrath issue to be resolved.

Regards...jmcc

jmcc

Another angle being mentioned in relation to the Martin/Ahern story is the GFA anniversary. That's going to get a lot of favourable coverage and having Ahern as part of FF will remind people of FF's part in the GFA and how FG made a mess of things under Bruton. The problem for Martin and FF is that the electorate still associates Ahern with the Mahon Tribunal and the bursting of the property bubble. SF will also benefit from the GFA anniversary and FF needs the positive coverage if it is not to lose seats in the next GE and the Locals/Euros.

Regards...jmcc

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119623995#Comment_119623995

Brilliant! 😂

EOQRTL

FFG, lots done but more to do...

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2022/0916/1323685-french-embassy-warning-accommodation/

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119623995#Comment_119623995

"This is a very serious issue for FF"

Are you having a laugh? Whether or not a hasbeen former Taoiseach is a member of the party or not is a "very serious issue"?

That is the most ridiculous overblown unthinkingly partisan analysis for quite a while. Do you think this "very serious issue" is more serious than the housing crisis? Framing a budget? the health service? changing ministers' portfolios? education? the war in Ukraine? inflation? crime? homelessness?

Maybe you could let us know where that "very serious issue" ranks among those serious issues.

Shebean

"I hear you're a socialist now father?"

'Proper' for Govt to take back excess energy profits

http://www.rte.ie/news/europe/2022/0916/1323764-mairead-mcguinness/

If a PBP or Sinn Fein government pulled this there'd be talk of communist Russia.

markodaly

https://twitter.com/farrellniall/status/1570735229882761216

..

Some insight into the ESB profits.

AlmightyCushion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626310#Comment_119626310

Well, that isn't true because Sinn Fein did ask about a windfall tax being introduced months ago and the government were looking into it. Some members of government were in favour of it and others were not. I don't recall any of them screaming about communism.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626746#Comment_119626746

It's still the government's fault.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626825#Comment_119626825

If you read my post, it says if a PBP or SF Government introduced it.

PBP and SF aren't in government, so you're correct in that regard.

Maybe they'll also consider the esb 'for profit' model going forward.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625437#Comment_119625437

To explain it in simple terms for you, FF is a political party and it needs to get its TDs reelected and get new ones elected.

Reminding people of one of the most fiscally incompetent FF regimes ever by trying to rehabilitate the leader of that regime is a bad thing. It makes voters remember the damage that FF did to the economy and the lost homes and businesses and remember their family members who had to emigrate while these FFers got big payoffs and pensions.

Those angry voters might not want to vote FF in upcoming elections. That means that fewer FF TDs get reelected or elected. Losing seats is a very serious issue for any political party let alone FF.

Losing seats, as anyone with even the most basic understanding of politics would know, is bad for any political party. If FF loses seats then SF may gain seats and you wouldn't like that, would you?

Regards...jmcc

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119626911#Comment_119626911

I think my point flew over your head.

If inflation is under control, public transport is being built, economic growth is happening, we're moving to a sustainable economy, an end to the housing shortage is in sight, slaintecare has started etc. etc., then people voting in 2025 won't give a second's thought to the "very serious issue" of Bertie. Thinking they will is deluded.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119627012#Comment_119627012

Aside from reported economic growth in some areas, the rest of your comment is delusional. There's nothing remotely plausible to any of it.

The economy is far from sustainable. Slaintecare hasn't started and we are moving deeper into the housing crisis. Also Bertie winning money on the horses and keeping his money in the wardrobe will not be forgotten. 'the boom will get boomier', indeed.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119627012#Comment_119627012

You make up a fantasy for FFG and then claim that anyone who disasgrees with your fantasy is wrong?

Regards...jmcc

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119627012#Comment_119627012

It's entirely obvious where the delusion is....

Bertie for President !!!

Mahon Tribunal never happened. No reform necessary etc etc

jmcc

The rehabilitation of Bertie Ahern by FF would provide the basis for a very effective negative ad campaign. The theme would be simple: here's the reason you can't buy or rent.

FF's support in the younger demographics is already collapsing in the opinion polls but this would kill it off.

Regards...jmcc

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119623032#Comment_119623032

It's actually not although the less said about Hogan's time as minister the better! I am referring to collection and LAs barely got to 60% of that. They really are pretty incompetent at such things and the easy logic of LPT meant that the income could be guaranteed and not subject to any type of blockages. It's really how it should have been done in the first place. Amused to see a link to the usual suspects who would boycott any new tax every invented.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119627139#Comment_119627139

The LAs are spectacularly incompetent.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119627061#Comment_119627061

election posters

shirrup

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119627139#Comment_119627139

They barely collected it because of the aforementioned boycott. Revenue were brought in as the govt weren't prepared for the civil disobedience and boycott. Or, another way of putting it would be, Revenue were brought in because of the Haimes created by the government when they dreamt up the scheme.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119627182#Comment_119627182

Well, you see this because it suits you to and I see the logic of the LPT and it was the right call rather than let LAs try to fund themselves. You seem to be backing LAs, despite real life evidence of their complete inability to collect funds owed to them, in any circumstances.

Incidentally, the real damage was done back in 1978 when FF, as promised, abolished domestic rates thus depriving councils of a reliable source of income

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119627182#Comment_119627182

Funny how that tax is still collecting money and the Commission is proposing to increase it if it was such a mess.

shirrup

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119627219#Comment_119627219

LPT is a sound concept in theory, yes. However, we were not discussing whether I agreed with it or not, we were discussing your disingenuousness in trying to pin blame on LAs because revenue needed to be drafted in to enforce collection.

I stated, (and backed up that with sources) that revenue needed to be brought in because of non compliance, not because the LA were inefficient at collecting it.

Someone up above posted a comical Ali meme, it would fit right in here too. Your in denial it seems.

https://m.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/thousands-still-defying-revenue-on-local-property-tax-months-after-deadline-41844088.html

Pay attention.

Thousands of homeowners continue to defy Revenue by failing to file a local property tax return months after the deadline.

New figures show that no property tax return has been filed for 178,000 properties.

It means that just half of those contacted by the tax authority in March and April have responded to its warnings to file a return.

The failure of so many to provide a current valuation means they could be underpaying the tax and could face large interest rate penalties.

The rules were changed for this year’s local property tax (LPT), requiring a new valuation for homes, the first such request to revalue since 2013.

Property owners were required to determine the market value of their property as at last November 1.

The higher-than-expected non-compliance means the property tax amount for these houses where no valuation has been provided is based on estimated values put together by Revenue statisticians.

Now seeing as I've paid you the courtesy of backing up my claim that revenue was brought in because of non compliance and a boycott, maybe you might repay me with a source that Beck's your claim that they were brought in due to the LAs being useless at collecting it.

shirrup

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119627224#Comment_119627224

I never claimed the lpt was a mess, I said the govt made a haimes of its introduction, and left it too easy to be ignored, hence revenue were needed.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119627302#Comment_119627302

Change is difficult and there are often teething problems or unforseen or unanticipated challenges. They got it right in the end.

shirrup

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119627317#Comment_119627317

By "got it right in the end" obviously you're alluding to my original point that they needed to draft in revenue because of the huge challenges they faced with non compliance/boycotting by the public.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119627289#Comment_119627289

We share completely different views on why LPT was introduced. All you're doing here is sharing a link about LPT and 91% compliance with it, which in Revenue compliance terms is still actually very good, and suggesting something else entirely by highlighting words that support your view.

Again there is absolutely no denial on my part that LAs are inept at collecting funds. That was the case in 2012 just as it is now.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119627326#Comment_119627326

Yes, they didn't anticipate the populist misinformation campaign by certain politicians against the tax. That was their mistake.

shirrup

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119627330#Comment_119627330

We share completely different views on why LPT was introduced

We do? How do you know that, when I never voiced my theory behind why it was introduced? Poor deflection attempt, very poor.

All you're doing here is sharing a link about LPT and 91% compliance with it, which in Revenue compliance terms is still actually very good, and suggesting something else entirely by highlighting words that support your view

Yet you are either unable or unwilling to post something that backs up your own claim about the LAs simply being inefficient at collecting it, rather than the legislation making it pi55 easy to just refuse to engage before drafting in revenue. I think I can rest my case to be honest.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119627331#Comment_119627331

And it was with that mistake that made it so easy to refuse to engage/pay the LPT, hence the need to get revenues involvement.

Thanks for at least acknowledging that, others are trying to pin the blame on the LAs who could only work with what they were given.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119623032#Comment_119623032

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119627385#Comment_119627385

This is one of your first contributions to this exchange complete with your opinion on why LPT was brought in and you've doubled down on that "haimes" opinion quite a few times. As I said it's just one opinion against another. We differ and that's life.

LAs have over €200m+ outstanding in rent, some of it for decades, up to 30% in business rates in some places, and up to half their parking fines. As they say they've got form.

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119627080#Comment_119627080

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfjGSfuSQpA

Just play that on loop Unbelievable. Dunno how they survived that comment.

shirrup

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119627431#Comment_119627431

You've misread my contribution so. I offered no opinion on why LPT was brought in. I only offered an opinion on why revenue was drafted in to enforce the collections.

It's right there where you quoted me.

The reason Revenue was brought in was because FG/Lab govt didn't cod enough fools with their "Free €100" registration sham for the then HHC, and because of a massive boycott of it

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119627385#Comment_119627385

Thanks for acknowledging the actions of the populist misinformation politicians who caused the problem.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119627540#Comment_119627540

FF went from 71 seats in the 2007 GE to 20 seats in the 2011 GE. This is what Martin wants to rehabilitate.

Regards...jmcc

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119630984#Comment_119630984

Don't think that he's quite that popular. RTE has him on programmes now and then but for most people, he reminds them of the old dodgy FF. Since FF got rid of Ahern, it has tried to reinvent itself. Bringing him back would undo all that hard work. The only possible benefit of having Ahern back for the next GE would be that the negativity about him would dominate the news cycle.

Others will remember the economic disaster of FF in government, the lost homes, the failed businesses and family members who had to emigrate. And there is probably a long list of people who committed suicide when their financial problems got too much for them. Martin was a member of Ahern's cabinet.

Regards...jmcc

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119630984#Comment_119630984

He maintained popularity outside his own constituency from 2008 to 20014?

Utter nonsense.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119623877#Comment_119623877

It'll gain them headlines alright, just not good ones!

Amazing how out of touch with the public they still are.

Bertie running for president will crash and burn spectacularly and be yet another embarrassment for FF. How can they even entertain this idea?

Why on earth does anyone still vote FF...?

Hotblack Desiato

Ahern will never ever be forgiven by the electorate. FF just don't get it.

I'm struggling to remember when FF last did "get it", 1997 maybe, sheer arrogance and bloody-mindedness has been their modus operandi ever since. They think they have a divine right to govern, never mind be elected, never mind exist, in reality they have none of the above.

I would love to see that shower totally wiped out electorally once and for all.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119631967#Comment_119631967

They came close in 2011 with former FFer Sean Gallagher. The next presidential election will be a problem for FFG and for Labour. On the current numbers, Labour is unlikely to retain Bacik's seat in Dublin Bay South. That means that they will probably try to get her nominated as a candidate. FG has a lack of talent but Mairead McGuinness might be an option. Not sure about SF. Ni Riada was very much an SF in transition candidate (changing from Gerry Adams as leader to Mary Lou McDonald as leader and repositioning SF in the centre of the political spectrum). Ahern is the gombeen's gombeen. The fact that he's even being rehabilitated like this shows a complete leadership failure in FF (as if Troy Story hasn't made this clear already). The media landscape is also quite different to when FF was able to get friendly coverage from presstitutes. Controlling the news cycle is not that easy as it was when FF was last in government. The reception Ahern may get from the public may not be the one FF wants and it could spill over and cause reelection problems for its current TDs.

Regards...jmcc

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632234#Comment_119632234

Fine Gael have never won a presidential election. Their candidate will not win the next one either.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119632508#Comment_119632508

Robinson only won because FF (Lenihan) screwed up. If Lenihan hadn't given that interview, he would have been president. Then again, Obama only became president because Star Trek Voyager's 7 of 9 had marriage problems. :)

Regards...jmcc

maceoin.D.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119631967#Comment_119631967

"How can they even entertain this idea?"

I believe they know how unpopular the idea is, but they are desperate for somebody to fill the seat of the presidency to stop the other parties from gaining the power that would be needed to 'bring down the show', were they to somehow get in during the next GE. While the president isn't directly involved in the politics of the Dáil etc... they do have responsibilities that coincide with the Dáil and Seanad.

The President's powers include:

• Appointment of the Taoiseach, members of the Government, judges and other officials;
• Summoning and dissolving the Dáil, and convening the Oireachtas;
• Signing legislation into law and/or referring Bills to the Supreme Court;
• Representing the people of Ireland;
• Acting as Supreme Commander of the Defence Forces.

One thing that springs to mind from this list is MM recently calling for a rethinking of our neutrality. A president like Bertie could give FF more lease for statements such as those, and would ultimately hold the keys to make the changes happen.

They also could have an effect on bringing about another GE, seeing as they are losing popularity quickly for this upcoming one, this could be a sign that they are already hitting the panic button. During certain political events such as emergency elections (for example), the president is highly involved in the processes of the election. This is straight out of the statute book:

2. —(1) During the continuance of the present national emergency, the Taoiseach may, whenever he so thinks proper, advise the President to direct that a general election shall take place and, upon receipt of such advice, the President shall (save as is otherwise authorised by the next following sub-section of this section) direct by proclamation that a general election shall take place.

So, if Sinn Féin were to get in and form a coalition with FF for example (which I don't think is a good idea for SF personally), then they could potentially try and swing the tides back the other way. That might sound a bit far fetched, but I don't think they could turn this one around without something of that magnitude anyway.

Hotblack Desiato

Oh please. None of that is going to happen and even the most deluded FFer would not imagine holding the presidency would give them any real power.

maceoin.D.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119633853#Comment_119633853

Never said it was going to happen to be clear, just that FF were panicking. It is implied that I wouldn't put it past them but you could say that about anything sure. What do you feel is the reason they would risk putting Bertie in for a presidential election?

Hotblack Desiato

What do you feel is the reason they would risk putting Bertie in for a presidential election?

Complete and utter delusion on their part is the only one I can think of 😉

Like I said above, they still think they have a divine right to be in power.

jmcc

Looks like there's trouble over Finance and who gets to sit in the big chair.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/incoming-minister-for-finance-michael-mcgrath-clashes-with-leo-varadkar-over-eu-post-41998251.html

And, of course, Varadkar is at the centre of it.

Regards...jmcc