FF/FG/Green Government - Part 3

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119698459#Comment_119698459

Surely, the answer is obvious?

Regards...jmcc

mattser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119698759#Comment_119698759

Not until you make it so. You don't have to answer with a War and Peace contibution like earlier.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119698582#Comment_119698582

That new party option is an interesting one. There's a core of TDs in FF and FG who have become comfortable working with each other. As the next GE approaches, the would be the basis for the new party especially if there are defections or rebranding (going Independent) as TDs try to keep their seats. There are probably enough TDs to form a genuine "conservative" party. The problem is that most party TDs depend on the party and the party vote to get elected. The effects of a new "conservative" party would hit FFG as and might also affect SF to a lesser extent. It might also be concentrating on the Right of centre for votes.

Regards...jmcc

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119698333#Comment_119698333

Do the guilty parties have €3 billion lying around to pay for this? Of course they don't, it is silly populism to suggest that the guilty parties fund it.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119698752#Comment_119698752

The housing disaster and health system crisis and huge national debt will be 'out of peoples systems' in 2 years? Laughable. Your party's strategists are very weak. Plenty more chaos to come too.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119698846#Comment_119698846

I don't have a party.

Are you accusing me of being a bot for a party? If not, apologise.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119698853#Comment_119698853

Oh dear...here comes the baiting. BA will be along next.

I don't believe in bots. You owe me a thousand apologies at this stage. I have never reported your misinformation.

Bye.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119698795#Comment_119698795

Do you consider it just that those who are innocent should have to pay?

Regards...jmcc

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119698458#Comment_119698458

what credit card? this is largely funds coming from corporate tax receipts! governments urgently need to push as much money out into the economy, to try reduce the negative effects of any oncoming downturn, as prevention is better than cure, i.e. if they dont do this, we ll more than likely see many businesses going bust, and a significant rise in unemployment, so if you think we have problems now, you can be damn sure these problems would be far worse without this injection of money into the economy....

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119698959#Comment_119698959

That horse has bolted the gov is spending 11 billion now to try and win some support back and to play some mind games with the Shinners its just not enough. The tax payer looking at this sees their costs that they have to stump up for mica/pyrite blocks, HSE, Public sector pay and pensions, our welfare rates and then we look at our p1ss poor services that they are paying through the nose for and they are not fit for purpose as one poster put it we pay Northern European amounts in taxes for a Eastern European style public service along with L'Oréal rates for welfare and public sector pay and pensions. . The country is banjaxed and giving these gobsh1tes more money to throw on the bonfire that is Ireland Inc is not the way to go, we tried it. 11 Billion this year and 240Billion up until now. This borrowing is and will be a lot more expensive as time goes by. How much more do we have to needlessly throw away before the penny drops that our kids and grand kids are going to pay for this in taxes and an even poorer public service that is unless they have emigrated. It is time to look at what we are spending and hard decisions like telling refugees that we are full and there is no room in the inn is part of it. The country needs a reset starting with a route and branch commission report on spending and our public services and welfare. I find it comical that the powers that be can put one of these together for more taxes when over 90Billion is being spent this year. Its an absolute joke

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119698911#Comment_119698911

So you want the people who bought cheap building blocks without checking them to be made to pay to rebuild their own houses? They may not be completely guilty but they are not innocent either.

In essence, by making only those who are not fully innocent pay, you are in effect calling for the whole scheme to be stopped. Strange.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119698865#Comment_119698865

The baiting? Do you mean that where someone accuses another of being a party bot that they are baiting?

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119699099#Comment_119699099

Surely builders have indemnity insurance, I am sure the quarry who supplied the bricks had insurance. Sure FF/FG have already come out saying this brick levy will be passed on so in effect the people who are building or buying a house now pays. How is that fair. Here is an idea how about we get all politicians both ex and future politicians pay a levy through their pensions, they were the the ones that should of had proper regulations in place decades ago so the like Bertie should have 50% taken off their pensions until the cost is paid they were in charge and should of had a watchdog in place so the buck stops with them.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119699116#Comment_119699116

Well actually, they did have regulations in place, but Donegal County Council, among others, didn't implement them (once more we are back to my second favourite topic - the incompetence of local government), we could increase LPT in the areas that are subject to mica, making those counties pay for it themselves. That would be fairer than lumping the whole country with the bill.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119698959#Comment_119698959

https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/ireland-aims-ease-cost-living-squeeze-with-two-budgets-one-2022-09-26/#:~:text=Ireland's%20forecasts%20on%20Tuesday%20included,of%20national%20income%20for%202022.

It is very strange to see the accusations of the government putting finances at risk.

We have seen one-off measures this year which will still see a surplus and the combination next year of one-off and permanent measures will also see a surplus, and on top of that we are putting €6 billion over the two years into a rainy day fund.

blanch152

For those that are truly interested in polling results, and not the spin that is put on them, here is a website with a methodology of prediction that turns polls into seats.

https://irishelectionprojections.com/2022/09/29/september-2022-projections-update/

FF/FG/Greens within 5 seats of being returned.

SF hoovering up the left.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119699155#Comment_119699155

So that's even worse. So now let all of the pollical public service employees step up and pay a levy on their wage and their pension until the cost is paid and problem solved, they should not of let it happen they were the ones tasked with regulation and failed and no we should increase LPT , people paying this have already paid for stamp duty (it was 8% not so long ago), interest rates, solicitor fees, Vat on Solicitor fees, annual life and home insurance not to mention the actual cost of the house on top of the current rate of LPT sorry that stone has been bleed dry and they have paid enough, our politicians at all levels should pay a levy on their wage and pensions, we can call it the "political stupidity fund for mica redress scheme" has a nice ring to it.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119699172#Comment_119699172

The issue is we have such a surplus as they are squeezing the life out of tax payers and they have the corpo tax which leaves us in the same position pre 08 bust, paying bills using a 20 billion a year windfall in corpo tax that we dont control and can disappear as easily as stamp duty did back in 08 did and this is a disaster waiting to happen (again) I mean over 90 billion spent and we still have one of the worst public services going.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119699192#Comment_119699192

You seem to have forgotten the concept of buyer beware. There are loads of people who got good deals on concrete blocks, deals that looked too good to be true, when the mica issue was already being talked about, do they not have any responsibility?

As for bleating about LPT, remember the mica problem is being for by renters and the homeless in their taxes, so why not increase the LPT, after all it only falls on those who are lucky enough to own their own home.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700174#Comment_119700174

Buyer beware you are you phucking having a laugh? If someone buys something legally in this country under consumer law if its not working or faulty you have the right to return it for a refund or to have it fixed. I don't see why this rule should not apply for the most expensive purchase you will ever buy. Buyer beware will you please stop smelling what your shoveling over there. There are enough people to chase between the quarry owners, the builders, the banks (who provided mortgages) and all of their insurers and the political regulators that should be made pony up for the cash.

We already may a myriad of tases in this country and no more not one cent more in additional taxes should be paid until there is a commission on spend and where we can save on waste, as for LTP I have outlined the myriad of taxes and other costs that the home owner has to pay so no they pay enough already I find it disgusting that you want these people to pay more for an issue they had no hand act or part in.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700261#Comment_119700261

Like it or not, thanks to the strops thrown by SF and Donegal politicians of all hues, the mica problem is now a taxpayer problem. The government was wrong to cave in on the issue, but is right that the burden of payment should be shared and spread around. A levy on concrete blocks, an increase in LPT in the counties affected, a small increase in stamp duty on property transactions, are all ways that can be found to pay for this.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700287#Comment_119700287

No like I said start with the political watch dogs both ex and current politicians and councilors who should of overseen better governance of this kind of work. Its time we hit the political class where it hurts their pocket. I bet if they were on the hook for the cost there would be a new found will to actually target the people who actually brought these blocks from quarry to the actual build.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700340#Comment_119700340

Individuals are entitled to due process, you can't do that.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700397#Comment_119700397

But we can just lump on cost to people who have no hand act or part in any of this. It can be done with the stroke of a pen, like the levy paid with the likes of the insurance levy a few years back for insurance companies. We can start there politicians including ex politicians pay and pensions after all they were supposed to be on watch while all of this went on

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700438#Comment_119700438

The insurance levy applied to an industry, not to individuals.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700631#Comment_119700631

It shows it can be done with regards to a scandal like this and for individuals I point you to the public sector pension levy where at the stroke of a pen all public sector employees finally had to contribute a bit to a pension they come no where near close to paying the full cost for. So it can be done and very quickly too.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700642#Comment_119700642

Again, that was a universal measure, not one directed at individuals or small groups of individuals. You cannot single out a group of politicians, many of whom knew nothing about the mica issue.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700655#Comment_119700655

No it wasn't it was on a subset of tax payers, who had a new levy imposed on them over night so it can and should be done in this case. Are you kidding your using an excuse that covers the vast majority of people your trying to impose the cost on. People paying property tax and people who are in the market for their first home didn't have anything to do with Mica yet you think they should pay and then you think you can apply this logic when you want to give others the expense and not apply it to people who are running the country and should of had more of a handle of what was going on with regards to safeguard and regulations. Your having a laugh aren't you. So lets start with all politicians both ex and current for a "mica lack of regulation levy".

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700478#Comment_119700478

Unfortunately insurance doesn't cover those type of structural defect (Home Bond doesn't either making it worthless). There is an argument made that those impacted before the building inspector (and waiver) regime came in should get a bail out (this was brought in after pyrite), but there is no one entity that can foot the bill, putting it on concrete (like we do for insurance bailouts via levy) seems to be about the best way to do it, but, let's be clear, it shouldn't have been needed at all. I do wonder if it will make it through the Dáil (they should attach a rider to it that there is no tax-payer funded mica redress fund without it and watch the TD squirm).

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700699#Comment_119700699

What about home insurance every time I have ever had to get a mortgage I have been told I needed home insurance by the bank, why can these insurance companies not cover this, surely if a house if falling down its covered if not then home insurance is not needed and insurance companies and banks should be held liable for every payment ever made.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700719#Comment_119700719

Home insurance doesn't cover everything. There are lots of exclusions in all insurance.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700682#Comment_119700682

Politicians didn't make people buy cheap shoddy mica-infused blocks for their self-build McMansions either, so why should politicians bear the cost.

There was a political decision right across the spectrum that this burden be shared by the public. I disagreed with that, but there is no political party that reflected my view, the closest being FG who resisted the full bill.

Of all taxpayers, those who are renting and those who are homeless shouldn't have to bear the cost of fixing houses for those who own them. That means the fairest way of sharing the cost is through LPT increases. Again, if a particular county had a good inspection regime or careful purchasers of blocks and therefore only has a small mica problem, the LPT increase should be lower than in counties with a big liability. Therefore the costs per county should be recouped through LPT in those counties, as it is the least unfair way of getting the money from taxpayers.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700726#Comment_119700726

Home insurance , home is falling down and is not covered. Well holy phuck what next car insurance , crash car into a mica house car now no longer covered under car insurance. I am pretty sure that if the house is falling down around your neck it should be covered and they should not be let out of it as its a cost imposed by banks when you drawdown your mortgage.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700753#Comment_119700753

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2021-11-09a.491#:~:text=Furthermore%2C%20it%20is%20important%20to,the%20use%20of%20defective%20materials.

I'll let Paschal explain it to you.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700746#Comment_119700746

The majority of the tax payers out there didnt make these bricks either, your argument about the politicians can be used for every other tax payer with the exception of those who own and worked in the quarry and who built the properties, yet you have not bother giving them the cost, All of our politicians from country councils to Mehole and Leo should pay a levy they are in power and they are the people who govern our country with things like laws and regulation and these blocks did not get any due diligence with that regards, ergo its a failure of our political class. (one of many)

Of course the politicians will try and lump this onto tax payers sure its their creedo for decades, benchmarking ah sure the tax payer wont mind lets do it twice, welfare tourists chaching thanks mr tax payer and sure we know we didnt build enough social houses over the last 2 decades but lets chuck another 50/60k refugees into the clusterphuck that is our housing crisis, bank bail out 64 billion no bother to the tax payer chaching, public sector pay rises this year meaning more for the politicians again and not the once of measures but actually bedding into our costs annually which will actually increase our difficulties with inflation- ah mister tax payer we only spent 90billion+ this year surely we can break the 100billion mark before we are voted out. Now this another 3 to 6 Billion on top. How many more phuck ups do you want the tax payer to pay for?

The fair way is to wake those in power up and let them lead by example. Going back on a previous discussion with you about carbon tax, all cars should be taken from the politicians they should be given electric bikes and then their pay should have a "mica lack of regulation levy" put on them. You know let them lead the way by sacrificing first the tax payer has already been bleed dry.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700757#Comment_119700757

And is that the same with builders indemnity insurance?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700811#Comment_119700811

The way you get rid of politicians and punish them is you vote them out.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700889#Comment_119700889

And they walk off with a gold plated pension not much of a punishment is it now really

titan18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700655#Comment_119700655

Lets single out new home buyers then. How fantastic

atticu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119701021#Comment_119701021

So, concrete is only used to build new houses.

I didn’t know that.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119701021#Comment_119701021

Didn't someone complain recently that there were more financial institutions buying apartments last year than first time homeowners.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119700642#Comment_119700642

"finally had to contribute"...............ignoring that most PS have always being paying 6.5% pension contributions.

I'm sure you know this, as I've told you enough times.

The 10% PRD is *on top of*, as well as, the normal 6.5% pension contributions.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119701239#Comment_119701239

The builders insurance doesn't cover defective bricks, insurance was just not liable in these cases, the liabilty fell onto the producers which immediately went bang and folded as they wouldn't be able to cover a fraction of the cost.

But look, if it somehow fell onto insurance, then there would have to be an insurance levy to pay for it instead as happened when Quinn et al went bang before.

A proper inspection and testing process should have been in place, when it was put in place, heels were dragged and it was made optional.

The message here is if you pay a builder to build a house or business and it collapses around you, tough.

This played out in public, the opposition folded immediately and wanted an unlimited tax payer funded bail out, then the government with a more limited bail out.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119701887#Comment_119701887

And with the career average scheme, there actually are doubts that it will pay out in the long run as much as people put in.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119701887#Comment_119701887

Read what I said I said they make a contribution that does not cover the full cost which is true which I have told you before as well

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119704292#Comment_119704292

Correct, and it is appropriate and entirely correct that the employees contribution should not cover the full cost.

Because the employer contributes also, like in practically all pension schemes.

The weakness in your argument is the use of the word "full".

You suggest/imply that the employee should cover the full cost of their pension.

Should this be the case in the Siemens/AIB/Vodafone/ALDI pension schemes?

The implication of your suggestion is that employer contributions should not be allowed?

I feel you may reply: "but these companies aren't making losses, whereas the State often runs a Budget deficit".

I reply with two points:

(1) firms do continue with employer pension conts even through loss-making periods

(2) I support any call from you to reduce Budget deficits, via spending restraint/less waste, etc., For example, if you suggest higher pension conts from staff to reflect the true cost of their pensions, I could agree with you. I suggest a 33ee/66er split, or maybe 40ee/60er. If you could show that staff conts are not that high, then I agree that they should increase.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119704499#Comment_119704499

There are not many defined benefit schemes out there at all. This has been pointed out to you over and over again and you still moan about having to pay a bit more for pensions that what you pay still comes no where near covering the cost and the fact that the vast majority of the private sector cannot afford to put by for their own at all. Give it over ye fool ye its not right at all pay for your own pensions please and give the tax payer back that tax and let them in a lot of cases start their own pensions. Also your right those private sector companies that do provide some of the pension costs are generally not 240 billion in debt.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119704450#Comment_119704450

As I said, builders insurance wouldn't cover supply defects like this (being angry about it doesn't change this fact), the builder would also liquidate the company as it would be much cheaper than paying out (and many of the builders have long since disappeared anyway, so you're only penalising those that stuck around) it also doesn't cover the self builds where no builder is involved. The government is the only recourse most of the people effected can engage with, rightly or wrongly.

The worst thing is that an inspection system (which would have tested the bricks) was brought in after the pyrite scandal but was made optional via a waiver system, those that signed the waiver are still being bailed out by the taxpayer.

The opposition are pushing for unlimited bailouts for those affected, so be careful how you vote (if this is an important issue at poll time). There is a big thread on the Donegal forum that goes into all the details.

(I'm personally in favour of a limited bailout to a standard sized house rather than a like for like replacement of what they had).

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119704733#Comment_119704733

The builders are gone, and the supplier went bust, there is no one to chase down for cash other than the government.

The waiver system is now no longer a waiver system (apparently), the waiver system itself was a sop to rural TD's and self-builders.

But this is just explaining the facts about the case rather than ranting and expecting a non-existent entity to pay, everyone agrees it shouldn't have happened.

Cluedo Monopoly

Children's hospital to open by end 2024 at the earliest (rte.ie)

An Oireachtas committee has been told that the earliest potential opening for the new children's hospital is the end of 2024.

The new National Paediatric Hospital will be substantially complete by March 2024, the builders have said. At that time, it will be handed over to Children's Health Ireland for a period of commissioning.

The National Paediatric Hospital Development Board (NPHDB) has said that the spend on the hospital up to August was €1.1 billion.

The Government approved a budget of €1.4 billion in 2018.

In a statement for today's Joint Committee on Health, the development board said that definitive updates on costs cannot be provided at this time as it is a live contract.

The committee heard that there are 989 claims from the contractor still in play to be resolved but that a moratorium on claims had been agreed to allow the project progress.

Social Democrats Health Spokesperson Róisín Shortall said she was concerned that delaying the resolution of claims could have implications for the opening of the hospital and the final costs.

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Will they even finish it before the election? This is the FG legacy. The final costs will be enormous.