FF/FG/Green Government - Part 3

Ham_Sandwich

Yes get rid of finna fail and finna gael Sinn Fein have been waiting to put this countruy right housing health education they will sort us out if we look after them in the eloection.

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178271#Comment_120178271

Out of the frying pan into the fire with that lot

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178295#Comment_120178295

I'd sooner not vote for them, links to crime figures, nationalist history etc. I also think the quality of candidate drops of steeply after the core figures. (Are ffg much better in that regard?)

But at the same time, they're at least promising a step in the right direction and I think some of their main players are a step above ffg's.

I'd much prefer a traditional 'Social Democrat' party but no-one else on the cards.

If SF don't cut the mustard maybe someone else will step up. But we at least need to get started, not slipping further back. FFG out.

maccored

ive been a shinner for years, but I have no idea what they'd be like in government. the problem now though is how many more times do we do the same thing (elect basically the same parties) and expect a different result? There comes a time when you just have to take a chance.

Beasty

threads merged

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120177880#Comment_120177880

Lots of problems with that story emerging apparently. Gript link I know, but a stopped clock is right twice a day etc:

"In the first instance, the Garda statement on the matter, included at the very end of Kitty Holland’s report, does not particularly lend credence to the claim that there was a dramatic armed assault on a camp full of migrants:

A Garda spokesman confirmed there had been an “incident on River Road. Gardaí responded quickly and engaged with those present. There was no report of any injuries and no formal complaints made at this time.

Contrast this with the headline of the piece:

“Men with dogs, sticks and baseball bat attack Dublin migrant camp”

It is fair, I think, to say, that if men with dogs and sticks and a baseball bat attacked others, and there were no injuries, then there was either immense good fortune involved, or interpretations of the word “attack” may vary.

But let us move on to the biggest question in the report: There is no doubt – none whatsoever – that the Irish Times had cameras on the scene. In fact, Holland’s report includes a video report from the migrant camp itself, showing what appears to be the camp before any attack took place. There is footage of one man sleeping in a tent. There is a football. There is a pair of shoes, hanging from a branch. There is no evidence of any attack, or damage to any of the tents.

Now, we know three things, directly from Holland’s report, which pose questions:

The group of men arrived at about 12.45pm at the encampment, comprised of about 15 tents in a forest area, on the bank of the Tolka river on River Road, near the Ashtown pound…..

…..When interrupted by The Irish Times and asked why they were attacking the camp, the men – all white, Irish – alleged the residents had been involved in an assault locally.

……Gardaí arrived at the camp shortly after the men and dogs left, and spoke to those living there. One, a Polish man (20) told The Irish Times he had been hit several times with a baseball bat. Visibly distressed, he said his arm was not broken. “I have strong bones, but the tendons are sore”.

What we know is that the Irish Times was present before, during, and after the alleged attack. And we know from the footage of the area that the Irish Times had a camera present. And yet.

There is no footage of the attack. There is no footage of the attackers. There is no footage of the aftermath of any attack. The Irish Times, we are told, actually interviewed several of the attackers, but did not record them, or get them on camera. There is no evidence of anything other than the existence of the migrant camp itself.

I do not know the reasons for this, but as an editor myself, let me tell you: If Ben or Fatima or any other Gript reporter was on the scene of an incident like this and failed to get any publishable footage at all, they would be in the doghouse, to put it very mildly."

https://gript.ie/the-remarkable-holes-in-the-irish-times-migrant-attack-story/

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178401#Comment_120178401

That is up to the people and as much as I would like to see an end to FF, FG and SF it is up to the people to do it. The fact that housing crisis is impacting on all sections of society in this country could see FF and FG decimated but then again SF are not exactly setting the world alight either. It will be a case of something like 2011 happening to see FF and FG removed from power, even in 2011 FG did their best to lose that election. I know when I vote there will be no preferences for FF, FG or Green representatives.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178353#Comment_120178353

What right direction are they promising a step in? Because I can't see it. All I can see is a country returning to the 1950s when emigration was the norm, the population was falling and economic misery stalked the land.

MegamanBoo

You mean the 50's when there was no housing or hospital care?

Looks like we're heading there alright.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178480#Comment_120178480

Tldr It's the 'fake news' media.

Also are you telling me it's ok to turn up at a homeless shelter with dogs and baseball bats in itself?

The line for you is serious physical assault?

WishUWereHere

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120175224#Comment_120175224

That graph is very interesting:

FF seem to be history in the greater Dublin area ( going on this graph ). They are only 4th most popular. Oh to be a fly on the wall in Bertie’s office 🤣

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120179070#Comment_120179070

Did you even bother to read any of the half of the article I quoted? Its not calling the Irish Times fake news in anyway, it repeatedly says we should assume the best about anything they publish. I'll summarize it even more for you if that helps, the key points it makes were:

• The Gardai have no reports of any injuries whatsoever, and no formal complaints of any kind
• The Irish Times reporter, by her own claim, was there "before, during, and after the attack" with a camera present. They have footage of the camp before any attack. But there is no footage of any kind of the attack itself, the attackers, or even the aftermath of the attack.

Do those facts (note, not opinions) not seem strange to you? What sort of journalist is literally at the scene of a major crime as its happening, with a camera, and gets zero evidence of it or its aftermath?

Put things in a more neutral scenario for perspective - lets say the Irish Times ran a story about Leinster fans rioting outside the Aviva with baseball bats attacking Munster fans, and claimed to have been there before, during, and after the brutal assault. But all they had to show for this was footage of Munster fans before the riot looking peaceful. They had absolutely zero footage of said riot, of any Leinster fans in the area at all, or any aftermath of the riot (injuries or destruction). And there were no Garda reports of any injuries or complaints filed about any riot... Would you wonder about the truth of the story?

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120179059#Comment_120179059

There was housing. FF and FG managed to build enough social housing to keep everyone housed. The economy was still quite protectionist and there were some large factories and heavy industry. Emigration was used as a safety valve by governments. There were also hospitals. It was a decision made by FFers in the late 1990s to stop building social housing and let the market supply housing that things went off the rails.

Regards...jmcc

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120179719#Comment_120179719

It's just muck and calling for distraction. And yes it is shouting 'fake news'.

If the IT did have footage there are several good reasons they might not have released it.

Clearly something disgusting happened at that homeless camp, stop trying to deflect and minimize it.

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180778#Comment_120180778

Its not remotely shouting fake news. Its asking why basic standards of journalism, that apply to reporting on anything, weren't observed in this case.

Theres no evidence whatsoever that "clearly something disgusting happened". Thats the problem.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180356#Comment_120180356

This is a complete misunderstanding.

The population was declining, there was no problem building enough social housing to keep everyone housed because you were only replacing existing stock in rural areas with housing stock in cities.

People harking back to the 1950s as a golden age of housebuilding don't understand the differing economic contexts. When they are calling for us to go back to that, they are also harking back to those terrible economic times. As I keep saying, our problems with housing are problems of success.

We are creating jobs, we are an attractive place to move to live in rather than a place to leave behind. That is a completely different challenge to the 1950s that was an economic wasteland.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120181014#Comment_120181014

And some nothing right-wing cesspit like 'gript' is going to be the arbiter of 'basic standards' of journalism is it?

Mainstream media. Fake news... blah... blah... blah....

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120181049#Comment_120181049

Such wonderful jobs we have now. Sure after a few week or two you might have enough for your own tent to live in.

Better not get sick though.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120178271#Comment_120178271

Ah yes. SF. the party who doesnt recognise the authority of the court, the party with links to folks who attack the police and know where the bodies are buried around the borders, the party with an ex-FF member as its leader in the south, a no name leader in the north, with claims of being an all island party but having directly opposed positions on the same issues depending on whether its NI or ROI, and ultimately the party with no costings or ability to pay for their magical money tree.

Within a couple of years of an SF lead government, we'd be back to the 80s.

Ham_Sandwich

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120181397#Comment_120181397

80s were better than what we have now no water charges no bin charges more housing and hospitals we were doing a lot better before ff and fg came along and gavce the country to the bankers and the develpoers

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120181523#Comment_120181523

Ah here, you obviously didn't live though the 1980s.

Housing was even more difficult than now.

jmcc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120181560#Comment_120181560

That is a lie. The decision to stop building social housing at the rate necessary was taken by FF the late 1990s. Their theory was that the market (in reality, crony developers) would provide. It did not work out and the economically incompetent gombeen Ahern/Cowen regimes only made it worse with the property bubble.

Regards...jmcc

Cluedo Monopoly

The illegal nursing home rip off is Q1 on Leaders Questions.

The coalition of chaos is doing it's level best to alienate and piss off every age group in the electorate.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120182193#Comment_120182193

Mortgage interest rates hit the high teens in the early 1980s. It was not a time for a family to be buying a house, and was far more difficult to finance than it is today.

Just look at the couple on tv last night. They were living with his parents in the family home until recently until they moved into the apartment owned by his parents. WTF? They had some cheek complaining about affordability coming from a landlord family.

CarProblem

"Mortgage interest rates hit the high teens in the early 1980s. It was not a time for a family to be buying a house, and was far more difficult to finance than it is today"

Yet - home ownership rates in 1981 (74.4%) was higher than 2021 (70%)

1981 taken from here

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp1hii/cp1hii/tr/

2021 taken from here

https://tradingeconomics.com/ireland/home-ownership-rate#:~:text=Home%20Ownership%20Rate%20in%20Ireland%20averaged%2072.95%20percent%20from%202003,of%2068.60%20percent%20in%202014.

Interest rates were high but so was wage inflation. A lot of that generation would say the first few years were painful until inflation worked its magic.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120182954#Comment_120182954

Home ownership rates went up in the 1990s, that was the period when it was easy to buy a house, but the 1980s were not an easy time, many a family couldn't put food on the table, and there were no holidays, or nights out or anything like that.

US3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120183439#Comment_120183439

No nights out ? Every pub in the country was packed like sardines on the weekends, and most doing pretty well on weekdays too 😂

CarProblem

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120183439#Comment_120183439

"Home ownership rates went up in the 1990s" - indeed, nobody said otherwise, but home ownership rates were higher in 1981 than in 2021. So if that "was not the time to buy a house" I don't know what today is

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120183738#Comment_120183738

Thats cos of drink driving and smoking policies since, nothing else.

US3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120184155#Comment_120184155

Nothing got to do with people not being able to afford a few €7 pints no ? Rent wasn't 50% of anyone's wages in the 80s or 90s.

Cluedo Monopoly

The FFG approach to so many issues is that if you can afford the costs, time and stress surrounding litigation, you will get your legal entitlements eventually through an out-of-court settlement. If you cannot afford it, tough cookie.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120184859#Comment_120184859

Mortgages were hitting 70% of wages with the interest rate rises. I remember those times and the fear people had, people starting out in the early 1980s had it far worse than people starting out now.

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120187955#Comment_120187955

your favourite rag disagrees - https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/more-difficult-to-buy-a-home-now-than-in-the-1980s-36321280.html

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120187990#Comment_120187990

I got as far as the Nevin Economic Research Institute and laughed.

US3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120187955#Comment_120187955

How could you even type out such nonsense. You haven't a clue what you are talking about 😂

jmcc

Ireland Thinks/Sindo poll:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/fine-gael-sees-support-drop-after-bruising-month-for-leo-varadkars-party-in-latest-opinion-poll-42327821.html

Usual caveats apply. Margin of Error is +/- 2.9% so this movement for FG is outside that.

Regards...jmcc

rolling boh

There will only be a change of government if the opposition can offer a viable option all these protests could just fragment the votes with a real dolly mixture of small groups getting a seat or two thus letting the present government scrape in again .

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120202571#Comment_120202571

The position of Fianna Fail will be very interesting. They've achieved noth8ng in terms of additional voter support since being in government from FG. At some stage FF need to make s decision on what they stand for and where there future lies.

rolling boh

Would they shack up with SF though especially as the smaller party hard to see that .Sticking with FG seems more likely after all they are very similar and a merger in the next few years is possible .As things stand we have far too many indos and small groups to put anything together at some stage a big change will have to happen .

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120188179#Comment_120188179

It's absolute gibberish isn't it?

My sister's hubby was able to buy their first home in the 80's, a three up two down, and all on his very modest factory wage. They wanted for nothing in other areas too, like holidays and nights out on the weekend. They were able to have three kids as well.

Good luck with any of that shit today.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120202473#Comment_120202473

I see that FG are still above their general election levels of support. Strange that, as I thought that all of the current problems were bringing armageddon for them in this poll.

These polls are telling us nothing, other than a holding pattern until a general election is called, and decisions have to be made. They are not that far off their 2019 local election levels either.

Bishop of hope

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120202597#Comment_120202597

As with all party's their position will have to be outlined as it was before the last election, but most likely flexible as coalition with other party's seem their lot for the future.

A dying party when compared to their heyday really, fighting hard to hold on to any semblance of their past identity and being relevant in the future political landscape, other than a supporting role in coalition.

FG battling the same fight too.

Only one party at present growing and that's SF. Will that continue? Their test will have to be a term or two in govt, then it will be interesting to see if they can fight the voter apathy that has beset FF, FG and Labour.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120213440#Comment_120213440

Are Sinn Fein growing?

https://pollingindicator.com/

Sinn Fein support peaked at around 36% last summer, and has since been in a slow but steady decline to around 32%, a decline that is outside the margin of error, and seen across a number of different polling companies.

Now, the voters haven't been going back to the government, rather government support remains in or around the general election level. Rather it seems a reversal of the trend that had been seen in the first two years of this government where support for the smaller parties and independents moved to Sinn Fein, now it seems some of that is moving back.

Nothing decided yet, as it is not an election time.

Blut2

Bertie rejoining FF this week and being all over the media surely won't do them any favours. I've no idea why the party would agree to it, all its going to do is cost them votes by reminding people of all their corruption.

They spent so long and so much effort trying to emphasize they were a different party now, the bad old days and all the corrupt dinosaurs were gone etc. Just to show all that meant nothing by welcoming him back with outstretched arms.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220127#Comment_120220127

And reminds people that errant FFG TDs are always forgiven eventually. Obviously Bertie isn't a TD but the likes of Troy and English will be ministers again if they hold the line.

jmcc

Should be fun watching all the FFG meatbots on Social Media having to defend Bertie Ahern. Wonder if Tubridy will have him on the LLS?

It should be interesting to see the next poll figures. I think that B&A is next.

Regards...jmcc

Bishop of hope

It's going to become harder for the govt to gain any traction in the popularity stakes for the foreseeable future, with rents rising sharply still. Top that off with the cost of living spiralling to levels where basic incomes can't cope with just ordinary cost of living bills, like groceries, heating and increases in mortgage payments due to the increase in interest rates. Leo admitted he hasn't a clue how many "affordable" homes have or are being built.

Hard times for the public usually leads to dissatisfaction increasing for the current govt of the time.

Blut2

Its mostly self-inflicted to be fair, in particular with regards to housing. There was a good article in the Indo last week on social housing, this was a high(low?) light:

"The ESRI reports that more than half of renters are relying on some form of housing support. This is not cheap: rent subsidies and long-term leasing cost taxpayers €1.22bn in 2021 (some €542m of which was spent accommodating more than 60,000 households on HAP) — or the cost of building nearly 5,000 new council houses."

https://archive.is/YMj0G

Half of the private rental market in the country being on housing supports is absolutely insane. Imagine how much lower rents would be for everyone if that money had been spent building social housing for those people over the last decade instead?

72sheep

"The transformation of Ireland [...] to a society where 17 per cent of the population is foreign-born represents one of the biggest social changes since independence". 17% foreign born, let that sink in. "Transformation" may be one way of describing this monumental demographic change, but there are others.

And our govmt enacted this change in the midst of a multi-decade housing crisis. 

And our govmt , desperately trying to satisfy EU targets, promised to accommodate vastly more Ukrainians than we can absorb.

But we are all racists for noticing this. (Of course it's ok for Prof McRea to notice in the IT but not for us in our communities.)

Right.

Still, at least tough guy Varadkar is over in Brussells laying down the law on EU borders, LMAO!

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2023/02/15/irelands-flirtation-with-liberalism-may-be-coming-to-an-end/

AlmightyCushion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120251166#Comment_120251166

You say that this has happened in the middle of a housing crisis but that simply isn't true. The foreign born population has been at 17% for ages. It was the same in 2011. We were talking about bulldozing ghost estates back then. Plus, this percentage included a lot of people who are Irish but were born outside of the state. I know a good few people who are foreign born who have lived most their life here and their parents are Irish. Their parents just moved abroad and had kids there and after a few years moved back.

"The number of Irish residents who were born outside Ireland continues to increase and stood at 766,770 in 2011 an increase of 25 per cent on 2006, and accounting for 17 per cent of the population."

https://www.socialjustice.ie/content/policy-issues/census-2011-ireland-first-definitive-results