FF/FG/Green Government - Part 3

Floppybits

BobbyMalone wrote: »

Was there not a government minister (perhaps O'Brien?) on Morning Ireland just this week saying that legislation would be fraught with legal challenges? Maybe I was dreaming...

Probably not dreaming as this seems to be one of the standard responses from the government handbook to any legislation where they are hesitant to change.

It will be interesting to see if the Labour party do bring back Darragh O'Brien bill from 2019 and to see the response from FFG to this.

Fann Linn

Lorcan Sirr fully explaining how these REITs work. Not a penny in tax do they pay. Some folks on here will probably call him a Socialist however, and not the predominant expert in this subject which he is.
Another FF agreeing with him wholeheartedly on the same show.
Another one for whom the penny has finally dropped for.

Cilldara_2000

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Another thing on his article.

How does attracting foreign investors into the country to rent houses and apartments out increase the banks profits like he's suggesting?

Surely that has the opposite affect as less people are taking out mortgages.

Two banks have recently left Ireland as its not profitable enough.

His article doesn't add up.

It's a leftie having a rant at the government. Simple.

It's relative to its time I think. The state owned banks were giving out ~10% the number of the mortgages they were giving out at the height of the boom. Many of the existing mortgages were in negative equity meaning these state owned banks would be further banjaxed if they had to repossess these homes. Plus central bank rules meant they had to assess their exposure and disclose it.

Pushing up the value of the mortgaged assets removed red flags from the banks' balance sheets - thereby improving them.

But even as a policy in and of itself this failed - they never made it easy for banks to repossess homes because it was and is very difficult politically for obvious historical reasons.

Cilldara_2000

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

It's relative to its time I think. The state owned banks were giving out ~10% the number of the mortgages they were giving out at the height of the boom. Many of the existing mortgages were in negative equity meaning these state owned banks would be further banjaxed if they had to repossess these homes. Plus central bank rules meant they had to assess their exposure and disclose it.

Pushing up the value of the mortgaged assets removed red flags from the banks' balance sheets - thereby improving them.

But even as a policy in and of itself this failed - they never made it easy for banks to repossess homes because it was and is very difficult politically for obvious historical reasons.

This is a very valid point

CarProblem

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

they never made it easy for banks to repossess homes because it was and is very difficult politically for obvious historical reasons.

This keeps being said and while that is the mood music in rags like the Indo and The Times is it among the general public?

I don't think anyone's social circle is representative of the entire population (I most certainly don't think mine is) but that is definitely not the ethos of my friends/colleagues/acquaintances/family etc.

Would be interested to hear the view of others and their experiences

Cluedo Monopoly

Very very simple question.

https://twitter.com/caulmick/status/1390216456336551938

Why not?

After the event is right. This is so so toxic and it makes zero sense. The opposition will be all over this at GE.Next.

The waffle out of O'Brien - priceless!

Very worrying for those people wanting to go on the property ladder that The government are only interested in taking petty pot shots at each other and playing party politics over this most sensitive of issues re investments and cuckoo funds.

FFG are set for massive losses in the upcoming elections with their carry on of supporting and encouraging these vultures with tax breaks and incentives that on the face of it seems extraordinary and crass.

In particular FG are starting to become FF lite with their Celtic tiger style behaviour. We all know where that ended for sure. The same mistakes are been played out like in the late nineties and early naughties. We are sleepwalking into another financial crash I’m certain sooner rather than later. The greens should also take some blame for facilitating this cowboy behaviour from those two right wing parties.

blanch152

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

It's very rare for any party to get a full majority. They did have confidence and supply which eventually led to the FFG coalition and ultimately the end of the Civil War power swap.

But you raise a good point. FF+SF+Labour would have had 74 votes in 2019 so I am not sure what happened to that O'Brien vulture fund bill in 2019. FG had 66 seats. Maybe FG promised to introduce something similar and then never bothered.

It is a really good example of an opposition populist policy that is unworkable in its current form, will get dropped when entering government, but does its job in attracting people to vote for the opposition.

The problem here is how to stop investment funds buying up housing estates, while leaving them free to be professional landlords of apartment blocks that wouldn't be built only for them.

irishproduce

In the news recently there is much Hullabaloo over the fact that "Ordinary buyers, who have to scrimp and save for years for a deposit, cannot compete with these multi-billion-euro funds". Seems to be an issue with the private funds out competing the ordinary middle income Joe and Mary soap.

I'm open to correction here but the same carry on is squeezing the same people from the other side.
The charity housing and spurious immigration sector.

Call the private guys out yes, but don't leave out the fact that the middle income earner is also being squeezed from the other side by different interests. Because as I see it, the ordinary first time buyer equally is not able to compete with the charity/ spurious immigration sector which has deep state pockets.
Equally concerning in my view, even though the outcomes for those concerned may be a little different.

Cluedo Monopoly

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Very very simple question.

https://twitter.com/caulmick/status/1390216456336551938

Why not?

After the event is right. This is so so toxic and it makes zero sense. The opposition will be all over this at GE.Next.

The waffle out of O'Brien - priceless!

Proper order if they are
The bill on the part ownership,is not law yet,so bringing in a ban on vulture funds at committee stage is possible though
Nothing is simple,if you ban foreign companies investing here,you run the risk of quid pro quo happening to irish companies abroad
But its worth it in my opinion

blanch152

blanch152 wrote: »

It is a really good example of an opposition populist policy that is unworkable in its current form, will get dropped when entering government, but does its job in attracting people to vote for the opposition.

The problem here is how to stop investment funds buying up housing estates, while leaving them free to be professional landlords of apartment blocks that wouldn't be built only for them.

Listening to radio one just now,all these amount to about 5% of the market
You'd swear it was 95% with the hullabaloo about it going on for 'years'
Its days are numbered now
A combination of tax and planning laws are going to be used to stop it

Cluedo Monopoly

Marine Layer wrote: »

Listening to radio one just now,all these amount to about 5% of the market
You'd swear it was 95% with the hullabaloo about it going on for 'years'
Its days are numbered now
A combination of tax and planning laws are going to be used to stop it

Eamonn Ryan was asked how many homes were owned by large investment companies in Ireland. He blurted out that he didn't know but thought it was 100-200. I am not sure he was fully awake.

Fann Linn

Marine Layer wrote: »

Listening to radio one just now,all these amount to about 5% of the market
You'd swear it was 95% with the hullabaloo about it going on for 'years'
Its days are numbered now
A combination of tax and planning laws are going to be used to stop it[/quotequot



Its correct to nip it in the bud.

blanch152

Marine Layer wrote: »

Listening to radio one just now,all these amount to about 5% of the market
You'd swear it was 95% with the hullabaloo about it going on for 'years'
Its days are numbered now
A combination of tax and planning laws are going to be used to stop it

It's like the fuss over co-living. Co-living is a small niche market that a mature city like Dublin needs to meet, yet you would think from listening to the hysterics that it was the end of the world.

15 years ago, everyone was calling for professional landlords to enter the market as standards would be better, now they are all against them. Opposition politicians run around like headless chickens, only able to follow the herd.

Fann Linn

blanch152 wrote: »

It's like the fuss over co-living. Co-living is a small niche market that a mature city like Dublin needs to meet, yet you would think from listening to the hysterics that it was the end of the world.

15 years ago, everyone was calling for professional landlords to enter the market as standards would be better, now they are all against them. Opposition politicians run around like headless chickens, only able to follow the herd.

In this case Blanch it's the govt politicians running around like headless chickens following the herd. Did ye see the carry on at both PP meetings last night!

Humour Me

It’s not just to purchasing of homes though, it’s also what happens next. These investment companies don’t want the hassle of organising individual rentals, they are going to get a council or housing association to take out long term leases. Taxpayers are going to be covering the costs of these rentals for up to 20 years, with no asset at the end. Based on the DLRCC leases in Dundrum, we are going to be paying over the market rental rates for these leases, which will in turn push up the market rates, which makes it harder for potential buyers to save a deposit.

The entire housing strategy needs to be thrown out.

Fann Linn

Fann Linn wrote: »

In this case Blanch it's the govt politicians running around like headless chickens following the herd. Did ye see the carry on at both PP meetings last night!

Nobody outside see's what goes on at PP meetings,a lot of it is hearsay and exaggeration
You are right,it needs to be nipped now that they have ventured into whole housing estates
Some apartment blocks would not be built only for funding from funds
Builders need margins,profits and risk mitigation before they will build
Its difficult to get them to build in eastern counties for house prices less than 250k because its just not worth it
As one said to me,welcome to the world of house building

Fann Linn

Humour Me wrote: »

It’s not just to purchasing of homes though, it’s also what happens next. These investment companies don’t want the hassle of organising individual rentals, they are going to get a council or housing association to take out long term leases. Taxpayers are going to be covering the costs of these rentals for up to 20 years, with no asset at the end. Based on the DLRCC leases in Dundrum, we are going to be paying over the market rental rates for these leases, which will in turn push up the market rates, which makes it harder for potential buyers to save a deposit.

The entire housing strategy needs to be thrown out.

Plus they don't pay one iota in various taxes thanks to FFG looking after them,

Fann Linn

Marine Layer wrote: »

Nobody outside see's what goes on at PP meetings,a lot of it is hearsay and exaggeration
You are right,it needs to be nipped now that they have ventured into whole housing estates
Some apartment blocks would not be built only for funding from funds
Builders need margins,profits and risk mitigation before they will build
Its difficult to get them to build in eastern counties for house prices less than 250k because its just not worth it
As one said to me,welcome to the world of house building

We know enough went on for MM and LV coming out both yesterday and today stating that it's over now. Some good has come from the opposition shouting for otherwise it would have remained as is.

theendisnear

blanch152 wrote: »

It's like the fuss over co-living. Co-living is a small niche market that a mature city like Dublin needs to meet, yet you would think from listening to the hysterics that it was the end of the world.

15 years ago, everyone was calling for professional landlords to enter the market as standards would be better, now they are all against them. Opposition politicians run around like headless chickens, only able to follow the herd.

Govt defenders bringing the opposition into it.

DEFLECT DEFLECT DEFLECT

The youth will never turn back to FFG now.

Theres only 3 parties running around like headless chickens this past 24 hours. All at sea, lost the dressing room as to speak (AGAIN)

Cluedo Monopoly

Fann Linn wrote: »

We know enough went on for MM and LV coming out both yesterday and today stating that it's over now. Some good has come from the opposition shouting for otherwise it would have remained as is.

Damage is done. Fact is they knew there was a problem (For years) and wilfully ignored it in the housing plan.

Cluedo Monopoly

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Damage is done. Fact is they knew there was a problem (For years) and wilfully ignored it in the housing plan.

5% isn't a particular problem
A new problem with them buying whole new housing estates is a particular problem
They have a voting majority,is it not good that they are reacting to new problems?

biko

irishproduce wrote: »

Because as I see it, the ordinary first time buyer equally is not able to compete with the charity/ spurious immigration sector which has deep state pockets.

When you compete with the state you compete with yourself in the sense that the state's pockets contain your tax money they made you hand over

Calhoun

Fann Linn wrote: »

Marine Layer wrote: »

Listening to radio one just now,all these amount to about 5% of the market
You'd swear it was 95% with the hullabaloo about it going on for 'years'
Its days are numbered now
A combination of tax and planning laws are going to be used to stop it[/quotequot

Its correct to nip it in the bud.

You only have to look at other jurisdictions to see why this had to be stopped. It also is something that resonates at the core with Irish people, If I was leading one of the opposition parties it would be very easy to paint a picture quite damaging to FF and FG.

kalych

Marine Layer wrote: »

5% isn't a particular problem
A new problem with them buying whole new housing estates is a particular problem
They have a voting majority,is it not good that they are reacting to new problems?

Just listening to Leo's interview with him saying the government need to make sure there are no unintended consequences of any legislation brought in to tackle this issue. What he fails to mention is that obviously the government failed to preempt the current situation of funds buying entire estates, which he claims was an unintended consequence of government policy.

Questions should be raised why are the government so afraid to only err on the side of big businesses, not the general public? And should we even worry about unintended consequences so much when they are clearly happening all the time with government policies as we speak. Or maybe it's just a FG bias which seems a much more likely explanation all things considered.

theendisnear

Marine Layer wrote: »

5% isn't a particular problem
A new problem with them buying whole new housing estates is a particular problem
They have a voting majority,is it not good that they are reacting to new problems?

Bay Meadows in Dublin 15 was not bought at the weekend. The Irish Times reported Bay meadows in September 2019!!!
There has been others as Pearse pointed out in the Dail.

It is NOT a NEW PROBLEM. The govt were aware of this. Now the general public are aware, the Govt are pretending its a problem that just came up. The nation is not stupid, everyone is fully ware the Govt knew what was going on

kalych

kalych wrote: »

Just listening to Leo's interview with him saying the government need to make sure there are no unintended consequences of any legislation brought in to tackle this issue. What he fails to mention is that obviously the government failed to preempt the current situation of funds buying entire estates, which he claims was an unintended consequence of government policy.

Questions should be raised why are the government so afraid to only err on the side of big businesses, not the general public? And should we even worry about unintended consequences so much when they are clearly happening all the time with government policies as we speak. Or maybe it's just a FG bias which seems a much more likely explanation all things considered.

I think the whole idea of the investment funds being invited in after the crash was to get funds into the building industry and jobs as much as to provide new accomadation when banks werent lending
They were left to tick along since but this mis step by them buying up housing estates will be the undoing of their expansion plans
Its a red line and rightly so
Governments couldnt have been expected 10 years ago to know they might do it 10 years later

theendisnear

theendisnear wrote: »

Bay Meadows in Dublin 15 was not bought at the weekend. The Irish Times reported Bay meadows in September 2019!!!
There has been others as Pearse pointed out in the Dail.

It is NOT a NEW PROBLEM. The govt were aware of this. Now the general public are aware, the Govt are pretending its a problem that just came up. The nation is not stupid, everyone is fully ware the Govt knew what was going on

Well ok then,its a newly reported problem
You think the cabinet gets updated every week on who's bought what?
Ah here now!

theendisnear

Marine Layer wrote: »

Well ok then,its a newly reported problem
You think the cabinet gets updated every week on who's bought what?
Ah here now!

Did you not read my post? The Irish Times Reported this in Septemeber 2019, not May 2021 September 2019

The Govt have been aware of this long before this week.

That excuse dosnt wash

FrancieBrady

theendisnear wrote: »

Did you not read my post? The Irish Times Reported this in Septemeber 2019, not May 2021 September 2019

The Govt have been aware of this long before this week.

That excuse dosnt wash

Guess who was raising it in 2019 too...a fella called Darragh O'Brien.

theendisnear

theendisnear wrote: »

Did you not read my post? The Irish Times Reported this in Septemeber 2019, not May 2021 September 2019

I did read it,thats why I replied with the words newly reported problem
They're 5% of the market,so whole housing estates purchases by them at this stage are tiny
2 have been reported
The cabinet aren't updated weekly on property purchases
They react to new problems as reported,topical issues basically

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Guess who was raising it in 2019 too...a fella called Darragh O'Brien.

The whole housing estates issue?

theendisnear

Marine Layer wrote: »

I did read it,thats why I replied with the words newly reported problem
They're 5% of the market,so whole housing estates purchases by them at this stage are tiny
2 have been reported
The cabinet aren't updated weekly on property purchases
They react to new problems as reported,topical issues basically

The cabinet are at loggerheads. FF and FG trying to make sure when this Govt ends, one wont look as bad as the other. Ministers giving diff answers to questions at the same time (Eamonn Ryan and Darragh O Brien both gave diff answers to same question this morning)

They have lost the dressing room

Many young peoples dreams of a new home shattered by Govts policy. No way back for FFG now. Whats better for the opposition is, alot of these people looking at buying 1st property would be FF or FG voters. They can wave goodbye to a large amount of their votes

theendisnear

theendisnear wrote: »

The cabinet are at loggerheads. FF and FG trying to make sure when this Govt ends, one wont look as bad as the other. Ministers giving diff answers to questions at the same time (Eamonn Ryan and Darragh O Brien both gave diff answers to same question this morning)

They have lost the dressing room

Many young peoples dreams of a new home shattered by Govts policy. No way back for FFG now. Whats better for the opposition is, alot of these people looking at buying 1st property would be FF or FG voters. They can wave goodbye to a large amount of their votes

In all fairness now,that is an opinion
Other opinions may vary

theendisnear

Marine Layer wrote: »

In all fairness now,that is an opinion
Other opinions may vary

Its also your opinion the Govt did not know about these estates getting bought up.

The Irish Times knew in 2019 but the Govt has not known.

Maybe the problem is the actually Govt are not fit for purpose if it is the case they never knew until the papers told them this week.

BobbyMalone

blanch152 wrote: »

Opposition politicians run around like headless chickens, only able to follow the herd.

Given the sudden turnabout on the part of the government parties on this very issue, would you agree that this applies to FF/FG/Greens?

theendisnear

theendisnear wrote: »

Its also your opinion the Govt did not know about these estates getting bought up.

The Irish Times knew in 2019 but the Govt has not known.

Maybe the problem is the actually Govt are not fit for purpose if it is the case they never knew until the papers told them this week.

It is my opinion that they've locked onto it now as a topical issue and will nip it in the bud
I do not feel sorry for the vulture funds not being quick enough off the mark to buy up much more than the 2 I've heard of
I would assume in the last year that the pandemic scuppered that plan,kind of pre occupied the government and to be fair,they've reacted quickly to it now as a topical issue

Floppybits

Marine Layer wrote: »

Well ok then,its a newly reported problem
You think the cabinet gets updated every week on who's bought what?
Ah here now!

Its only a new problem you say, here is an IT article from Feb 19th 2020 say that of the 21,000 built in 2019 only 8,000 were available for sale on the open market.

So both FF and FG have been well aware of this problem and haven't bothered to do anything about and in 2019 Darragh O'Brien brought a bill to the Dail to stop Vulture funds buying up estates so I don't know where you go that this a newly reported problem.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/just-8-000-houses-built-last-year-offered-for-sale-on-open-market-says-cif-1.4177876

Floppybits

Marine Layer wrote: »

It is my opinion that they've locked onto it now as a topical issue and will nip it in the bud
I do not feel sorry for the vulture funds not being quick enough off the mark to buy up much more than the 2 I've heard of
I would assume in the last year that the pandemic scuppered that plan,kind of pre occupied the government and to be fair,they've reacted quickly to it now as a topical issue

No they haven't reacted quickly would be shutting this practice down now like they shut the country down in March 2020 but nope they are going to drag their heels on this till sometime in July. So until that time these funds can snap up any or all properties either on the market or going to market till then.

Floppybits

Floppybits wrote: »

Its only a new problem you say, here is an IT article from Feb 19th 2020 say that of the 21,000 built in 2019 only 8,000 were available for sale on the open market.

So both FF and FG have been well aware of this problem and haven't bothered to do anything about and in 2019 Darragh O'Brien brought a bill to the Dail to stop Vulture funds buying up estates so I don't know where you go that this a newly reported problem.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/just-8-000-houses-built-last-year-offered-for-sale-on-open-market-says-cif-1.4177876

I replied to that already
They are 5% of the market
Not 95%
The topical issue is them buying whole housing estates,the red line
Cabinets aren't updated weekly or monthly on who bought what
It doesnt come in over text message or something

Floppybits

Floppybits wrote: »

No they haven't reacted quickly would be shutting this practice down now like they shut the country down in March 2020 but nope they are going to drag their heels on this till sometime in July. So until that time these funds can snap up any or all properties either on the market or going to market till then.

You are comparing action on a few housing estate purchases to action on a public health crisis?
Ah here now

Floppybits

Marine Layer wrote: »

I replied to that already
They are 5% of the market
Not 95%
The topical issue is tgem buying whole housing estates,the red line
Cabinets aren't updated weekly or monthly on who bought what
It doesnt come in over text message or something

Of course they are updated especially on an issue like housing and homelessness which cost them in the last election. The department responsible will know exactly the figures for housing in terms of what was built, what was sold and how they were bought. Don't be so niave to think they are not aware of this. To deny this is just burying your head in the sand. Accept it that they knew about but did nothing about it because it is their policy.

blanch152

Marine Layer wrote: »

You are comparing action on a few housing estate purchases to action on a public health crisis?
Ah here now

There is no point arguing with the hyperbole that turns every situation into the greatest crisis the world has ever seen and all is the fault of the FFG government.

Floppybits

Marine Layer wrote: »

You are comparing action on a few housing estate purchases to action on a public health crisis?
Ah here now

This is when you know that you are losing the argument when you have to resort to this.

I am not comparing it to anything. I am saying the government can do things quickly when they want too and the will there but they don't want to this and the will is not there so they are going to drag their heels on it. You keep burying your head in the sand there.

Floppybits

blanch152 wrote: »

There is no point arguing with the hyperbole that turns every situation into the greatest crisis the world has ever seen and all is the fault of the FFG government.

Hang on are you saying that people of the state being unable to buy houses because they are being snapped up en-masse by investor funds so that they can make profit by charging extortionate rents is hyperbole?

blanch152

blanch152 wrote: »

There is no point arguing with the hyperbole that turns every situation into the greatest crisis the world has ever seen and all is the fault of the FFG government.

Thank God that the vaccination rollout is being carried out in a timely fashion. I wonder what next weeks hysterics will be about?

Floppybits

Floppybits wrote: »

This is when you know that you are losing the argument when you have to resort to this.

I am not comparing it to anything. I am saying the government can do things quickly when they want too and the will there but they don't want to this and the will is not there so they are going to drag their heels on it. You keep burying your head in the sand there.

I'm not in any argument here
My and your opinion are but grains of sand
You can't just run with a bill without some thorough work going into it
Curly wigs get paid a lot to exploit rushed bills

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.facebook.com/DarraghObrienTD/videos/planning-and-development-amendment-first-time-buyers-bill-2019/538856890250751/

Here is the speech from O'Brien in 2019.

Yesterday I introduced The Planning & Development (First Time Buyers) Bill 2019 to prevent so called Cuckoo funds from buying up entire developments that have not been designated build to rent. My bill allow local authorities to earmark a certain percentage of zoned land (up to 30% at the discretion of the local authority) for first time buyers. The bill comes after spending from institutional investors soared in 2018 including snapping up developments where first-time buyers had already put down deposits.

The bill did not get past the 2nd stage.

Embarassing that he forgot all this

I see FF are trying to put the responsibility on Paschal now. Coalition of chaos!

Cluedo Monopoly

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Embarassing that he forgot all this

I'd say now he hasn't
But when you get into government,you get confronted by all the other factors needing considering that oppositions can gloss over because the Euros needed to fund building aren't registered to vote

FrancieBrady

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

https://www.facebook.com/DarraghObrienTD/videos/planning-and-development-amendment-first-time-buyers-bill-2019/538856890250751/

Here is the speech from O'Brien in 2019.



The bill did not get past the 2nd stage.

Embarassing that he forgot all this

I see FF are trying to put the responsibility on Paschal now. Coalition of chaos!

You'd wonder are they communicating with one another at all.