FF/FG/Green Government - Part 3

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117911004#Comment_117911004

More 'mirror mirror' with the alternate Star Fleet 🤓

The quality of the people in the various ministries is pretty bad. Cut throat self serving me feiners. No wonder they've no time to do a decent job.

RandomViewer

Not a trekkie expert and not sure if the mirror universe existed outside of Discovery,

Bubbaclaus

Disgusting homophobic scenes outside Varadkar's home earlier today. Hopefully the perpetrators will get charged.

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117913350#Comment_117913350

For once we can both agree on something. As you know I have no time for Varadkar but it was sickening. Calling him a Paedophile and homophobia was uncalled for.

I hope all those outside his home are charged and sent to jail.

BKelly21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117913350#Comment_117913350

Far right loonies from what I'm reading. Don't know the full details other than they were shouting "homophobic slogans". Arrest them and charge them.

Politicians homes should be completely off limits and should never be the target of protest.

gmisk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117913684#Comment_117913684

They called him a kiddie fiddler amongst other things....it is all on video....absolute loopers like Graham Carey are so thick they record themselves saying it!

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117913350#Comment_117913350

I think, well hope, that most people can agree with you on that. I never understand this sort of behavior, what are they trying to achieve? Why can't these people just let people live as they want? I would call it Neanderthal behavior but that would be an insult to Neanderthals. These people are just scum.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117914000#Comment_117914000

The problem is these far right nut jobs have been allowed to scream homophobic abuse with impunity. It was done during the assault of Izzy Kamikaze, and has become the 'go-to' chant to shut down anyone - esp anyone LGBTQ- who stands up to them.

Here I think we are seeing the Robespierre effect - this govt has not acted against the far-right, indeed given that throughout the Lockdowns the far-right seemed to be able to assemble whenever and where ever they want it could have been seen by some as they had tacit official approval.

Do I think the govt approves/endorses the far-right? No.

I do think they are so consumed by the 'threat' from the left (a democratic threat that will be felt in the electoral booths) some thought they had found some useful idiots to attack the left. And like Robespierre they are learning the screaming mob cannot be controlled.

It had a horrible inevitability that the far-right extremists who have gotten away with screaming homophobic abuse and calling people paedophiles in public with impunity would turn their attention to an openly gay politician.

What else do people expect from fascist racists?

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117913350#Comment_117913350

I hope they get as much jail time as the hate speech laws provide. Idiots.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117914195#Comment_117914195

It doesn't help that the Roman church still considers homosexuality an evil abomination. Stupid people still cling on to those backward teachings. Especially in Ireland. The Vatican said recently it will not bless same-sex marriage because God ‘can't bless sin’.

I am old enough to remember cardinals calling AIDs as a divine judgement.

Shebean

For generations the state supported the church and the far right religiously insane. This leaves us with people who think attacking gays is the right thing to do. Where thugs on the street engaging in same are animals, these kind of people believe they are just and protecting society. Dangerous and deranged human dirt IMO.

The law needs to come down heavy.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117914195#Comment_117914195

I do think they are so consumed by the 'threat' from the left (a democratic threat that will be felt in the electoral booths) some thought they had found some useful idiots to attack the left. And like Robespierre they are learning the screaming mob cannot be controlled.

In fairness, that is a ridiculous conclusion. You are essentially saying that the Greens 'endorse' the far-right and that FG/FG have some cosy relationship with them. You offer no proof mind.

Ireland is not the USA. Stop making it out like it is.

RandomViewer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117916052#Comment_117916052

The likes of John Bruton would've aligned themselves with the far right and certain party members would have courted people of that mindset to garner votes

McMurphy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117916450#Comment_117916450

Would the DUPers be considered far right? FG have shown to be cosy enough with them throughout time, they're even aligning themselves with them (and unionists in general) to complain about MDH not going up north to partake in a partition celebration.

I've not seen any of the videos of what happened outsider Varadkars home, but by all accounts there was some disgusting comments being made, and should be condemned by any right thinking person.

There's not been much posted about it in here by the usual champions of chastising everything they deem homophobic/racist or misogynistic, my guess is because there's no faux high moral ground to be had chastising the far right loonies, all things considered.

(Just an observation)

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117916502#Comment_117916502

It would take some neck to turn a disgusting homophobic rant against the FG leader into an attack on FG with the baseless accusation of aligning themselves with the DUP.

But sure, there is always someone to sink that low.

McMurphy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117916652#Comment_117916652

https://m.independent.ie/incoming/fine-gael-audience-applauds-as-dups-donaldson-says-ireland-should-join-the-commonwealth-37944279.html

I'm happy enough standing over that comment thank you very much, have a look on the Higgins thread, you're even on there taking the side of the DUP too btw, (mind you, you vote, green) but the evidence is there to support what I'm saying.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117916652#Comment_117916652

You're just fresh from defending the same thing in the shinner thread. Talk about some neck.

FG have more of a far right element. Can be common among the smaller parties.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117916678#Comment_117916678

I am sure you are happy enough to stand over your comment, that wasn't in question.

Cluedo Monopoly

Polls apart – Fine Gael ignores public opinion and focuses on a 'regroup' (irishexaminer.com)

It was an opportunity to "refresh, regroup and reset” as the Tánaiste put it, coming 24 hours after a pair of polls made for bracing reading for the TDs, senators and MEPs inside the Grand Hall of the hotel.

Fine Gael was down two points in the Business Post Red C poll on 28%, while The Sunday Times Behaviour & Attitudes poll saw Mr Varadkar's popularity plummet to 39%, down nine points, with Fine Gael now 10 points behind Sinn Féin on just 23% in the same Behaviour & Attitudes poll.

With the polls in mind, Fine Gaelers did not need to be told it had been a sub-par break for the party.

It's very very difficult to regroup and rebuild when you are in government. I think the FG leadership haven't done a full lessons learned on how they failed so badly in the 2020 election while allowing Fianna Fail to get ahead of them after their near decimation in 2011. Given the last 15 months it will be difficult for them to halt the rot over the next 15 months. You can almost smell the next scandal around the corner and I feel the Covid 19 response post mortem could be very awkward in terms of the financial cost in comparison to other countries in relative terms. Time will tell.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117916450#Comment_117916450

Can you give actual examples of this?

John Bruton and the far right? Ridiculous tbh.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117916678#Comment_117916678

You have to love the internet.

To summarise:

Some loons protest outside the private residence of Leo Varadkar calling him a pedophile and other homophobic slurs (note not one of the usual crew posted about it in the dedicated Leo thread of 'hate of the day', but there you go. I am sure when the government jet leaves for the UK someone will post some falsehoods about him ;))

The debate then turns into navel-gazing that it's really the fault of FG that this happened (with no evidence by the way).

The DUP is used as an example (the DUP far-right?) as if FG has some sympotic relationship with them (even though SF are in government with them)

TLDR: Loons protesting the fault Leo Varadkars house.... is really the fault of Leo Varadkar as he is the leader of FG. Let me know where I am wrong.

McMurphy

TLDR: Loons protesting the fault Leo Varadkars house.... is really the fault of Leo Varadkar as he is the leader of FG. Let me know where I am wrong

Ok, no problem, pretty much your whole post is wrong..

Firstly this part.

Some loons protest outside the private residence of Leo Varadkar calling him a pedophile and other homophobic slurs (note not one of the usual crew posted about it in the dedicated Leo thread of 'hate of the day', but there you go. I am sure when the government jet leaves for the UK someone will post some falsehoods about him ;))

The debate then turns into navel-gazing that it's really the fault of FG that this happened (with no evidence by the way).

Re the Leo thread, well done on proving my point. The lack of any of you guys posting about it says it all. No-one (certainly not I ) is "blaming FG" or Leo for that disgrace that went on, I'm pointing out that the fact MLMD was straight out condemning it in no uncertain terms, has taken the wind out of the sails, and left you seriously short of ammo and faux concern.

FG have had various love ins with the DUP, there's countless examples of them both adopting the same stance on things, usually when it can be an attempt to get one over on the shinners, you yourself have as recently as yesterday adopted the same stance as the DUP re the Higgins refusal to be allowed to be used as a pawn in their never ending quest at getting one up on them nasty nationalist folk. It's here on this very forum.

So here's my own "TLDR".

What happened outside Leo's home was a thundering disgrace, and I am observing that Leo's crew are fairly silent on it on this forum, whereas they've an established history of going off on faux crusades to castigate folk with spurious homophobic accusations. Theres no political capital to be made here though the fact that "de left" weren't involved, rather it was the far right loons. You might even say I was more vocal at calling out what went on outside Leo's home than many of his usual loyal defenders.

The evidence to back up my take on this is all over this forum FFS.

Cluedo Monopoly

M Martin seems to be bristling when asked about Zappone in NYC. It's following the government around like a bad smell.

He does not want to meet her. The leak investigation must be going well so 😋

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117918276#Comment_117918276

I think the biggest problem with your analysis is that you assume that there is such a thing as "Leo's crew". It certainly exposes a way of thinking about debate on these fora.

You also seem to expect others then to comment on things just because you want them to, and if they are spending the weekend with the family, or kicking a ball, suddenly their absence in real life means something on this anonymous forum. I just don't understand this mentality.

Your linkage of FG to far right loons smacks as a desperate attempt to play down the homophobic abuse and indulge yourself in a blame the victim approach, which I think comes from a particular obsession with the particular victim in this case. All rather sad, that you couldn't just condemn the abuse. It was particularly nauseating the way your posts introduced the victim-blaming aspect.

Let us be clear, the homophobic abuse of Varadkar outside his home was completely wrong, the fact that some of those retweeting it had Ivory Coast flags on their Twitter handle doesn't automatically make them supporters of SF and whatever tenuous links in your head that FG have with the DUP (in real life, there are none) had absolutely zero to do with the homophobic abuse.

McMurphy

Let us be clear, the homophobic abuse of Varadkar outside his home was completely wrong, the fact that some of those retweeting it had Ivory Coast flags on their Twitter handle doesn't automatically make them supporters of SF and whatever tenuous links in your head that FG have with the DUP (in real life, there are none) had absolutely zero to do with the homophobic abuse.

Another epic haymaker.

Maybe they were bot accounts of Leo's?

https://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/leo-varadkars-embarrassing-tricolour-gaffe-as-he-wishes-joe-schmidts-ireland-all-the-best-in-quest-for-grand-slam-36714967.html

However, Twitter users were quick to point out that Leo used an Ivory Coast flag in place of the tricolour. In his next tweet, the Irish flag was used correctly, but an American football icon was used instead of a rugby ball.

https://twitter.com/LeoVaradkar/status/974967131833020416?s=19

mariaalice

This is not a pop at anyone, it's an important point to do with social media, has anyone anything to say about government or opposition policy?

The thread is full of triumphalism, gossip, vulgar nicknames, borderline bullying, mild conspiracy theories, posters projecting their own issues onto a political party or an individual politician.

Bubbaclaus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117918728#Comment_117918728

I've pointed this out many times on here. There's very little interest in discussing actually policy in this forum, anytime I try to bring something up as a topic it is typically met with a 'smart' remark in response. I've given up on that for the most part (although sometimes I get forgetful and try again, only to be reminded why I stopped).

I would imagine it's why these threads have become the same few people arguing back and forth, where most of it is just digs between posters and nothing to do with the actual thread topic. People wanting a genuine discussion just can't be bothered to deal with that.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117918503#Comment_117918503

You end your comments by engaging in what you accuse others of at the start of your comments. Superb circular wordage.

The overly religious, antisemetic and homophobic have more support on the right. Today we call it far right, but not so long ago it would have been the norm in the state and FG and FF would have been in the thick of it. So I wouldn't be lifting up the 'blame Sinn Fein' rock if I were you.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117918555#Comment_117918555

Brilliant, just brilliant.

His handlers must be sweating buckets anytime he picks up his mobile.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117919613#Comment_117919613

I have commented before on these boards about the attraction of the Horseshoe Theory to describing Irish politics. Those on the far left (SF, PBP) have much more in common with those on the far right (Aontu, National Party) than either group do with the centre (FF, FG, Greens, Labour, SDs).

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117918728#Comment_117918728

The problem is if you comment on government policy in a negative manner even citing articles to back up your opinion, others will come in and make it about SF and in some extreme cases go on to talk about the IRA. TBF, we see that at the highest levels too.

In this instance there were the protests outside Varadkar's house where animals shouting ignorant slurs. We all roundly condemned it. Then some tried to make it about SF and around we go.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117919658#Comment_117919658

So you accept you accused the poster in your opening of what you engaged in in your closing?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117919723#Comment_117919723

Say what? Are we discussion different political theories and relevance to Irish politics, or are you just having a go at a poster to try and defend another poster?

Let's be clear, there was an attempt made to turn the homophobic attack on Leo's house into a fake narrative of FG links with the far right, in order to detract from the seriousness of the homophobic attack, which has been shown for what it was. There was also an attempt to flame the debate by referring to a group of posters on here as "Leo's crew". Both of those are far far distant from a comment by me on a much wider phenonemon on broader social media of Irish (and Ivory Coast) flags in Twitter and other handles.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117919783#Comment_117919783

I'm commenting on your comments where you accused a poster of trying to twist it to blame FG, you then went on to twist it to blame SF. In the same post no less.

The conversation was on what type of people would engage in such scurrilous activity. The left and SF were raised and it was pointed out traditionally in Ireland it was the right and religious right had issue with gay people, the poor and single mothers.

Is the Ivory Coast flag use a dig at Varadkar? While he was outspoken against gays having the same rights as everyone else, he hardly protested himself.

McMurphy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117919783#Comment_117919783

No - yet again you are misreading posts. There was no inference from me that FG "links with the far right" had somehow attracted the horrible scenes outside Leo's home - I suspect you are purposely trying to paint a completely untrue scene here.

What I said was there was a distinct lack of posts here from the usual cohort complaining about what went on outside his home, and I suspect it's because MLMD outright condemned it almost immediately (so no political capital to be made) and also because it was far right loons responsible.

Evidence?

Didn't you open a thread about your man Holohan having a "homophobic attack" on Leo. Where's your thread about this?

Evidence of FG links with the Far right?

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/entirely-inappropriate-anger-as-fine-gael-youth-leader-attends-us-right-wing-conference-38374027.html

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/fine-gael-links-to-viktor-orbans-right-wing-party-heavily-criticised-37825482.html

mariaalice

It's actually gone peculiar at this stage I can't make head nor tail of it, it would be disturbing if some of the posters of whatever shade were actual political advisers or in any way connected to any TD or party.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920150#Comment_117920150

You and I were speaking on housing the other day. I posted articles for you which you didn't seem to read or misread. I clarified for you and you never responded. Such is the internet. I can't speak for everyone on here, but posting comments isn't a job. We are free to come and go.

I would suggest many politicians are in dire need of advisers to help stem the tide of gaffes, but they already have a lot of advisers, I'm just not sure what good they do.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920092#Comment_117920092

So now I have to open a thread on every homophobic incident, no matter whether I am in the pub having a few pints or spending an afternoon with my family. If I don't, inferences will be drawn by every second conspiracy theorist that I don 't complain.

You are the one who keeps spinning a fake narrative about FG links with the far right.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920197#Comment_117920197

To be far, historically and in recent history FG have more in common with the right and far right. I think trying to link those protesting Varadkar to the left started all this. We can all agree they were wrong.

The religious extremists and others who thought gay people, single mothers and the poor were wrong and should be punished in some form were supported and covered for for generations by the state. We are bound to have some who still think that kind of behaviour was correct.

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920150#Comment_117920150

I wouldn't be surprised to find that some of the posters on here are affiliated or connected in some way to a party or TD.

mariaalice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920195#Comment_117920195

It's so extreme though, it's either party X is God and is going to both fix everything and simultaneously give party Y a triumphalist bringing down( that is the slight bulling bit). A number of posters have no interest in policy but have an enormous interest in bringing Leo and Simon down in some way.

I don't count newspaper articles quoting economists as evidence of anything because economists are as subject to bias as anyone else.

As I said I do think they are fraying around the edges and maybe they're too long there but it's the opinion of the electorate that counts not mine.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117918276#Comment_117918276

The lack of any of you guys posting about it says it all

 Leo's crew are fairly silent on it on this forum

Ah right, so because nobody mentioned it in the Leo thread, therefore we are sympathetic homophobes or have an affinity for the far-right

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant carry on there.

I hear there is a government jet about to take off, you best get on Twitter to see who is on it.

Note: I actually did post about that incident outside Leo's house by the way, in another thread, but unlike others, I don't like to spam multiple threads with the same regurgitated stuff. Sorry to disappoint on your 'theory'.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117918728#Comment_117918728

It's par of the course.

Discuss some topic of the day, the automatic rebuttal is to dig up a Tweet from 4 years ago as some "haha gotcha'

It's playground bullying nonsense, that grown-ups are getting involved in. The idea to some that there is a "Leo crew" that is on patrol at all times strikes me as nuts but there you go. Some people need to have an enemy to fight against.

And to note, there is NEVER EVER any policy discussion. It's all, 'Oh Leo picked his nose' or 'Michael Martin sounds angry on the radio' or 'Oh look someone tweeted something, lets all laugh at it...lolz'.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920368#Comment_117920368

Note: You mentioned it in the SF thread trying to link the protesters to SF. That's agenda driven and using the incident for your own political purposes IMO.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117918788#Comment_117918788

100%

I find myself more and more getting engaged in these futile food fights.

The old sayings are true.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920327#Comment_117920327

I find people criticise government based on policy, when Varadkar and Coveney aren't engaging in well publicised crony and lying behaviours. Can you find any discussions that don't stem from that? The only one I've seen recently is people using the animals who protested Varadkar to try score political points against the left/SF.

It was actually housing experts using factual statistics and looking at the same model used in London, but as I say, it seems you never read it. So much for people not wanting to discuss policy.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920394#Comment_117920394

No, you are mistaken.

I posted in this thread and explicitly stated that there were rumours that some may have been SF members/activists and if they were would NOT have been there under the guidance of the party. I also gave credit to MLMD for her statement on the incident.

I also brought the fact that at the moment, the anger and outrage that is fostered by SF is working for them at the moment but will come back to bite them later on.

Anyway, my core point was that I did post about it in another thread, so McMurphy is mistaken.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117919693#Comment_117919693

Have you been reading this thread?

Some have been trying to make it about FG, the DUP, Leo himself, the imagined 'Leo Crew' of boards.ie, among others

Or don't you want to acknowledge that?

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920408#Comment_117920408

You aren't disputing my comment. You raised Varadkar being protested in the SF thread and tried to link SF to the protesters. Saying you read it in comments on the internet is just you citing your sources, you still used it to have a go at Sf.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920426#Comment_117920426

Nope. Some like yourself tried to blame the left/SF with zero evidence. Some of us responded saying that type of behaviour is more up the right wing alley which FG would actually be closer to. You can't open a can of worms and then have issue with were they wriggle.