FF/FG/Green Government - Part 3

mariaalice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920405#Comment_117920405

I will read it all and see what I think lm a bit wary of experts or anyone who startes a piece with the Government should, posters are giving far too much credit to governments for what happens good or bad Ireland is a fly on the world economic stage.

McMurphy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920368#Comment_117920368

This is gas....I'm not long after posting about people who deliberately try and paint false scenes, or an incorrect narrative, and mark comes up with this.

**Ah right, so because nobody mentioned it in the Leo thread, therefore we are sympathetic homophobes or have an affinity for the far-right**

Where did I post any such suggestion? Should be easy to quote me do so, though obviously not as easy as arguing about something no-one said.

The difference in you and I Mark, is that I wouldn't lower myself to use completely false homophobic accusations to try and further an agenda, or to score points, because I am of the belief doing so devalues the actual homophobic issues the gay community face on a daily basis. Maybe if the far right loons had been wearing Kylie Minogue t-shirts, it might have been enough to get your concerns out of first gear.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117918728#Comment_117918728

Well FF/FG policy has run the housing/rental market into the ground. On the one hand they are getting very fat taxes from landlords which has formed a substantial bit of the revenue pool, on the other hand they have done nothing to expand this market, some of which could include incentivising landlords by less of a tax-take per rental. But housing policy has been inadequate, there’s little more for potential landlords to buy, and why would anyone want to enter the market. I would fear SF etc policy too even though I’d have a marginally socialist inclination if they focus on rent restrictions; only some more carrot for landlords will work.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920092#Comment_117920092

This is a good example of nefarious drive-by posting with no substance or details and can be described as agenda-driven fake news.

The accusation. FG has links with the Far-right. Quick, Google something and paste it in, in the hope no one reads the article themselves.....

So FG are far-right because...

Leo Varadkar as Taoiseach met Victor Orban as per his duties of state........

They were in the same political grouping as FG, the European Peoples Party.......

What some may not know is that the EPP suspended Fidesz (The party of Orban) before the 2019 EU elections. The EPP include parties like Merkels' CDC, Jean-Claude Junckers' CSPP, and Donald Tusk's Civic Platform. All members of the far-right of course!

Oh but some Young FG member went to a Nazi rally? No, it wasn't a Nazi rally it was a conference by the 'Young America's Foundation'. Are they conservative, yes? Far-right? Nope!

As they say, it's easy to lie and create fake news. Fake news can go around the world in a second before the truth gets its boots on. It takes much much more time to debunk fake news and lies, like the post I am referencing than it is to make stuff up. Hence why there is more fake news online than actual real fact-driven news.

Sometimes I take some effort to debunk it, but I don't have all-time in the world that some others have, in spreading it alas.

McMurphy

Oh but some Young FG member went to a Nazi rally? No, it wasn't a Nazi rally it was a conference by the 'Young America's Foundation'. Are they conservative, yes? Far-right? Nope!

Who said kfw went to a "nazi party" ?

Honestly now mark, no messing.... Do you believe posting outright lies does you any favours?

Like it doesn't even mention "Nazi rally" in the article I linked to, let alone my post you quoted?

Why must you make my job of deconstructing your absolute lies and scutter so easy?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920514#Comment_117920514

The difference?

Tell me the last time I posted and egged on a false story about Leo and a certain government jet?

The fact you bring up Kylie Minogue in an almost religious fashion says it all tbh. It doesn't take too much to read between the lines with the regularity you bring it up in an attempt to humiliate Leo Varadkar.

There are zero points in me continuing this discussion with you as again, we should be talking about Policy not Personalising it.

So..... you go.

Housing is the big one.... talk about it.... a new housing for all plan was released, costing 4 billion over ten years. Good, bad, OK?.... anything to add on that?

What about the energy issues that are going on in Europe and Ireland?

What about the latest Pensions report? Any concerns about that?? Pension age to rise?

Anything? Or do you want to talk about Leo picking his nose?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920551#Comment_117920551

You posted the link as an 'example' of FG links with the far right. Neither of which prove or give any credence to the false claim.

Its quite simple, stop posting stuff pretending it means something it doesn't.

edit: The article doesn't mention far-right either.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920520#Comment_117920520

Housing is a mess because of decades of mismanagement and the Irish attitude to planning, property and taxes. It really is a societal failure on us, mostly by the older generation that has gone, leaving the younger generation to pick up the pieces.

Everyone wants to fix the housing issue, but no one wants to pay the taxes for it or want new houses or units built next to them. Of course, most people are property owners so they want their house price to remain stable at worst and grow at best. SF thinks that blaming landlords for the issue is a quick fix. It isnt.

McMurphy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920562#Comment_117920562

In case you don't realise it, the Kylie Minogue analogy was brought up because you appeared to be a lot more emotive over people (,I stated repeatedly that I couldn't care a toss who or what he likes musically) that thought Leo's musical tastes were "funny," than far right loonies campaigning outside his home.

Now, painted into an awkward corner of your own making you want to drop it and discuss something else. You're as transparent as crystal.

Tell me the last time I posted and egged on a false story about Leo and a certain government jet?

Yeah because Leo on the government jet story's are ten a penny, you're referring to a story that was breaking on twitter that ultimately was false. As sometimes can happen when story's are still breaking.

But since you are asking questions about the last time you posted to an egg on face story....you weren't long abandoning your thread about female TDs being sexually harassed when it was A, pointed out to you that their political role or outlook had the square root of nothing to do with their sexual harassment, and B, Green TD Leddin being embroiled in misogynistic actions against a female member of his party.

You see the way I don't need to twist words or outright lie to make my points mark? Take note.

McMurphy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920571#Comment_117920571

**You posted the link as an 'example' of FG links with the far right. Neither of which prove or give any credence to the false claim.**

I did, and wouldn't it be easier to deal with what I posted, rather than some invention of your own, you might as well suggested I said swinger party as Nazi party FFS.

edit: The article doesn't mention far-right either.

Yes it does.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920505#Comment_117920505

In this case the common belief, by everyone, experts in the field, housing bodies and other parties, outside of FF/FG/Green is that copying the UK model that failed will lead to failure. I've yet to see anyone blame the government for what happens outside of Ireland, I was talking about their bad policy.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920586#Comment_117920586

Yet FF/FG/Green follow the same policies that created and exacerbated the housing crisis. Time for a change.

titan18

"We need to balance that one person's rent is another person's income."

If SF don't hammer that line home over and over again, I'd be surprised. Absolutely moronic statement for him with the housing/rental crisis that's happening.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920869#Comment_117920869

I'm starting to believe he's a list of bullet points and he wings it, poorly, for the filler. No way can all those advisers be so awful.

Always shows detachment from working people with thinking like that. We are to work for low wages to help business, we are to not receive redundancy, to help business and if rents are high, remember, that's someone else's profit, which takes the sting out I'm sure.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920869#Comment_117920869

It's only moronic to those who don't really understand what he is saying. Ireland needs landlords.

titan18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117921012#Comment_117921012

Ireland doesn't need people to be paying 40-50% of their wages on rent though.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117921036#Comment_117921036

Indeed, and reducing the number of rental properties is going to make that worse, not better.

When landlords sell up because they can no longer afford to keep their property it is not the person stacking shelves on a zero hour contract that benefits from it.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920234#Comment_117920234

In Irish politics, I would clump the National Party and Aontu of the far right much much closer to SF than to any of the mainstream parties.

titan18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117921043#Comment_117921043

Tbf, if a landlord can't afford to keep a property on the rental income ATM, they probably don't deserve to be a landlord as they're clearly wasting money.

I think the system needs to be better (the gap in taxation between REITs and normal landlords is ridiculous, and landlords have very little protection) but the rental cost just continuing to rise like it has isn't the way to make it better imo.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920774#Comment_117920774

So because an alumni of an organisation (i.e. a person who left and grew up into something else) is allegedly far right, then FG are far right because one of their youth members attended something to do with that organisation.

What a stretch.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117921043#Comment_117921043

When the person stacking shelves can't afford to pay the rent, it's the tax payer picks up the slack, rather than the landlord having to lower it to meet the actual market. But we must remember that's his profit, so fairs fair like 😜

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117921101#Comment_117921101

SF are more main stream than Fine Gael, going by popularity among the electorate. Do you imagine the youth defense crowd back in the day were shinners or YFG? FF/FG didn't maintain power during the decades of mother and baby homes by giving out to the church. I don't remember them telling the church gay people have rights too. You don't seem to accept the history, recent history of FF/FG. FG had at least one vocal antisemite in the Dail as recent as the 1960's ffs.

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117921292#Comment_117921292

Ah Flanaghan's Da.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920651#Comment_117920651

A typical reply.

Kylie Minogue - check

Banal talk about the far-right - check

Personal digs - check

Leo living rent-free - check

Drags the other threads about sexual harassment into this - check

.

.

Housing policy - nope

Energy policy -nope

Anything about policy - nope

It seems some people just want to WIN with a 'Gotcha' for the sake of it.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117920844#Comment_117920844

The housing for all plan is not the same policy as before. SF may think they have some silver bullet to fix it, but they dont. See their record in the North for example.

David McWilliams did a good podcast on this.

Is the plan perfect? No, of course not. But by his estimation, it is a good plan.

What he points to in Ireland is that we forever talk about trying to get the 'perfect' plan so we talk and talk and talk, meanwhile nothing gets built.

Don't let the perfect become hostage to good.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117921256#Comment_117921256

There won't be a reply to this, because the article rocked up in their google search and it was quickly and clumsily posted as

"I hAvE eViDeNcE tHaT fG aRe FaR-rIgHt!"

Similar to the EPP issue with Orban.

Facts eh! Who needs them

lawred2

So FF are back in their goto place whenever they feel uncomfortable.. seeking to buy off the old vote with pension bumps.

orecir

Housing is still the straw that will break the camels back and bring about a SF led government.

Shocking to see how clueless the government parties are with regards housing and trying to prevent rent increases.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922380#Comment_117922380

Housing will be a major problem for this government come election time. The housing plan is already forgotten and few have faith in it.

The students returning to 3rd level have again highlighted the availability issues and high rents. The vacant property tax should be brought in immediately but the government are saying sometime next year. No rush it seems.

Floppybits

Listening to Claire Byrne now and the Myca issue could be the issue to bring this government down. The October 8th protest could be interesting unless this can be fixed before them.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117921292#Comment_117921292

Popularity among the electorate doesn't make you mainstream. Le Pen's party in France is around as popular as SF here over the last decade or so. Does that make them mainstream? No, absolutely it doesn't.

If you want to take the 60s as the era for defining politics, well Sinn Fein were the fundraising arm of a gang of criminal thugs. The apple hasn't fallen far from the tree with some of the current front bench.

Politics across the world is taking a lurch to the extremes, Sinn Fein are the Irish manifestation of that.

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922973#Comment_117922973

And the behavior of FF and FG in office not helping the situation and pushing more and more voters to SF.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923019#Comment_117923019

Certainly FF and FG have made it easier for the extreme populists like SF to get a foothold, but as long as people are more concerned about trivial issues like part-time jobs rather than the major issues of our time like climate change, then there is plenty of space for the likes of SF to work with.

smurgen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922973#Comment_117922973

That's funny. Isn't this lad a FG backer who donated money to Simon Coveney ?

https://twitter.com/thejournal_ie/status/1440298812715638798?s=19

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923324#Comment_117923324

What has that to do with my comment?

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923324#Comment_117923324

What difference does it make if he did/didn't donate?

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922212#Comment_117922212

We were here only last week but don't let facts disrupt a good rant.

Nobody including SF claim to have a cure all. That's false. The north has different governance. You can't compare north to south. We've spoke about this. You should read up on the differences. However, what you think of SF has no bearing on how bad FF/FG/Green policies have been and will be.

The new/not new plan follows the same model that was tried in London. It failed. Using the private market has failed. Continuing is wrong. It's not a case of better than nothing. It's worse than nothing. Nothing would be an improvement.

Suckit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922973#Comment_117922973

Consistent popularity might change that, Look at FG who started out as a far right party just over 15 years before that era mentioned, they didn't gain any real popularity, in fact their popularity grew only really after FF completely burned a lot of bridges, and after a decade in power and choosing the wrong leader to take them into elections, that surge has taken a dive and looks to drop even further.

What makes them 'mainstream'? Time? As they are certainly inconsistent, and have heavily relied on FF messing up in the past, seeing as the whole far-right thing didn't really work out for them, did it?

Extreme populism? 😏 Leo, The person who sits on the fence until the he sees which way the wind is blowing, the same person who uses movie quotes in his speeches to address the public at the start of a panemic, would know all about 'extreme populism', but very little about winning elections.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922973#Comment_117922973

It certainly does. What do you think mainstream means, parties you like?

Before you go off, we we're discussing why FG are right wing. SF aren't part of FG.

Varadkar spoke out against same sex couples raising children. He also spoke out against allowing rape victims avail of abortion services. That smells an awful lot like right wing to me. He leads Fine Gael. He changed his tune when the tide of popular opinion was rising. That's not the 60's.

Point is the right and religious right would be more likely to vote FG. Point is the like who treat gays, single mothers and other religions as less than are traditionally FF/FG voters and institutions supported by FF/FG governments. Mostly FG IMO.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922309#Comment_117922309

I don't agree with splashing the cash to the grey vote, but it's the done thing in Ireland. I wish it were different but we love clientism.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923520#Comment_117923520

I bring up the North because the main opposition party here in the South are in power there and they have the same issues up there as down here. So, if people are angry about housing and want SF to fix it, then I promise you, they wont.

The plan is a bit more complicated and has much more in it than the Shared Equity scheme, which I actually do not agree with. Now, If you just focus on that, without acknowledging some of the positives, then you have an agenda.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923552#Comment_117923552

You introduced the 1960s, not me. Sorry if the contrast didn't work for you.

This idea that FG are right-wing or have links to extreme right-wing is silly nonsense and should be recognised as such. FG, like the Greens, FF, Social Democrats and Labour, are one of a number of political parties that are mainly centrists in nature with some being a little more left-wing, some being a little more right-wing. They have shown an ability to get on with one another and to form governments of various types over the last few decades.

There are a number of extreme left-wing parties - SF and PBP being the most popular examples - whose policies are far from centrist in nature, and who have an inability to form a government through an inability to compromise and/or because of the unsavoury nature of their political representatives. Ditto to a small number of less successful political parties on the far-right - National Party and Aontu - who are similarly unfit for government.

Your last paragraph shows a distinct lack of understanding of history, and in particular, the policies of FG under Garret Fitzgerald. You have been suckered by your attention being drawn to a very small number of minor historical figures in FG, not representative of the party in general.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923535#Comment_117923535

Again, your characterisation of FG as a far right party is historically inaccurate and nonsense.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922380#Comment_117922380

They are more interested in making private profit. Why bother being in power if you can't make money for your pals? That's why they'll attack SF instead of improve their policies and character.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923852#Comment_117923852

I guess you mean they are more interested in making builder developers money? that would be the suggestion here.

So how are the government going to build houses without building developers? I don't see how any houses can get build without developers in the mix and of course the developer will want to make some money.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923710#Comment_117923710

You don't know that the north and south are different. In comparing the two, that is very clear.

What you think of SF doesn't make FF/FG policy better.

More housing were the tax payer is robbed and private individuals are priced out, is not a positive.

Shebean

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923794#Comment_117923794

When in the Dáil in 1943 Oliver J Flanagan praised Hitler for ridding Germany of Jews claiming (“I doubt very much if they are human”), he was not challenged by any other member.

JJ Walsh TD, who had been a minister in the Cosgrave government, was another high-ranking anti-semite who described Irish Jews as a “gang of parasites”.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/dec/08/ireland

Varadkar: Addressing his past comments, including those in May of 2010 when he opposed the procedure for victims of rape, he admitted the "fundamental shift" in his viewpoint. "I don't think I'm the only person in the country whose views on this have evolved."

You were saying?

skimpydoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922726#Comment_117922726

The government are going to be the new world champions of kicking the can down the world.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924006#Comment_117924006

Simply put, individuals do not represent the policy position of a particular party, and Oliver J Flanagan wasn't even a member of FG in 1943. As for Varadkar, his personal struggles at the time put his comments in perspective.

This desperate attempt to paint FG as some kind of far-right party is quite simply pathetic and silly and a distortion of history. As usual, there isn't even a single mention of policy, not a single attempt to consider the Just Society crusade and the many reforms over the decades led by Fine Gael in the face of huge resistance from the Church and from the conservative elements embedded within Fianna Fail. Fine Gael were ahead of their time in this regard and it is one of the biggest reasons why they were never able to maintain two successive periods in government.

They do need to change, they need to embrace the climate change agenda much more forcefully, they need to focus on improving public services and ensuring that everyone makes some contribution from their income and wealth to society.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923928#Comment_117923928

So either you believe SF are two different parties, SF ROI and SF NI or you believe they are the one party, just SF.

What makes you think SF or SF ROI will succeed with housing in the Republic where they have failed in the North?

The rest of your post is incoherent blather. Bingo buzzwords with no coherent thought or rationale.