US Police killing of 13 year old Adam Toledo

Tell me how

Enter name here wrote: »

Well bad parenting and living in a snowflake society will do that to you where you are taught to ignore authority.

You left out reference to LGBT and race in your Fox News application post.

Tell me how

Yakult wrote: »

What about before that moment? Is running from the police and leading them on a chase ignoring authority?

Is being shot a justifiable response to running from the police?

Yakult

Overheal wrote: »

The moment he was killed, the moment the cop decided to pull the trigger, is the moment that matters most.

The cop fired IN RESPONSE to the suspect complying with his command.

Sorry but you can't be that simple. That is not the only moment that matter. A series of events led to this moment.

You said and I quote

Overheal wrote: »

He didn’t ignore authority.

But he did, he ignored it from the moment he held A GUN in his posession.

So admit that he did ignore authority and not try to change it to suit your agenda.

Nozebleed

Overheal wrote: »

The moment he was killed, the moment the cop decided to pull the trigger, is the moment that matters most.

The cop fired IN RESPONSE to the suspect complying with his command.

lets be honest it was only a matter of time this kid got shot by someone somewhere..it was inevitable...and the only person to blame is the kid himself.

Danonino.

Tell me how wrote: »

Is being shot a justifiable response to running from the police?

Have people watched the footage? I mean, the kid stopped and then turned quickly while raising his hands. He had just thrown the weapon behind the fence but from the body cam footage that was incredibly hard to tell, even scrubbing through.

So no running from the police isn’t a shootable offense, but I would argue running from the police while armed with a weapon that had been discharged then turning abruptly and raising your hands in this case resulted in a shooting.

Trying to boil it down into ‘he got shot unarmed’ is ignoring everything else and just doesn’t work in this case imo.

Now: if the kid had raised his hands before turning and the cop then shot him... damn straight that would be an outrage. But that didn’t happen, what did was sad and resulted in a loss of life but it isn’t an outrage.

Overheal

Yakult wrote: »

Sorry but you can't be that simple. That is not the only moment that matter. A series of events led to this moment.

You said and I quote



But he did, he ignored it from the moment he held A GUN in his posession.

So admit that he did ignore authority and not try to change it to suit your agenda.

So the moment he picked up a gun that night, to you, he was already dead and justifiably so. It bears no relevance that he later chose to comply and surrender his fate was already sealed good riddance etc

banie01

That video is troubling tbh.
No disputing the child ran with a gun from the officer.
No disputing that the child ditched the gun before turning to comply with the officer's instruction.

The officer put a round in the chest of a child who'd followed

Overheal

Nozebleed wrote: »

lets be honest it was only a matter of time this kid got shot by someone somewhere..it was inevitable...and the only person to blame is the kid himself.

More mental gymnastics.

“Ah sure everyone dies eventually so what does it matter that a cop trained and paid by the taxpayer does the killing on a suspect for stopping and complying”

JustAThought

Tell me how wrote: »

Is being shot a justifiable response to running from the police?

if you live in a country where its illegal for YOU to have a gun and its legal for the cops to have a gun - then running from the police when you have one and/or have just been running with a 20+ year old who has a record AND has a gun that hs recently been fired AND not stopping but leading a cop up a dark alley at night while he repeatedly screams at you to stop and show your hands ( and you don’t) - when there have just been gunshots from that alley - now you have now taken one too many risky chances all on top of each other.

Overheal

JustAThought wrote: »

if you live in a country where its illegal for YOU to have a gun and its legal for the cops to have a gun - then running from the police when you have one and/or have just been running with a 20+ year old who has a record AND has a gun that hs recently been fired AND not stopping but leading a cop up a dark alley at night while he repeatedly screams at you to stop and show your hands ( and you don’t) - when there have just been gunshots from that alley - now you have now taken one too many risky chances all on top of each other.

But this is the United States. You’ve defeated your own argument.

There’s no law in Chicago that says carrying a weapon is punishable by summary street execution.

Nozebleed

Overheal wrote: »

More mental gymnastics.

“Ah sure everyone dies eventually so what does it matter that a cop trained and paid by the taxpayer does the killing on a suspect for stopping and complying”

but sure if he was shot by another black kid...you and many like you wouldnt give a flying f*ck..

Overheal

Nozebleed wrote: »

but sure if he was shot by another black kid...you and many like you wouldnt give a flying f*ck..

I’m a taxpayer and a voter. I don’t have a vote to regulate black kids behavior. I have a vote on how police operate and I pay for their operation.

I’m sure you thought you had a zinger there, but it’s a whiff.

nolivesmatter

Overheal wrote: »

I’ve already said my piece: don’t go chasing armed suspects down alleyways 1:1, use more drones and distance tactics.

I like this. The police don't have control over how the person acts, but they do have control over how much risk they expose themselves to. That would surely go some way to avoiding the "shoot him before he shoots me" situations. The technology is there, no reason not to be using it.

Danonino.

This is pointless. It’s either ‘he was shot unarmed the police are heinous’ or ‘he had it coming a future criminal got what he deserved’

Enjoy going in circles lads.

Yakult

Overheal wrote: »

So the moment he picked up a gun that night, to you, he was already dead and justifiably so. It bears no relevance that he later chose to comply and surrender his fate was already sealed good riddance etc

Where did I say that? I said he ignored authority, after you laughingly said he didn't ignore authority in a previous post.
Not sure what you would call it so? Fleeing from the Police with gun in hand.. That's definitely not ignoring authority. (Sarcasm)*

banie01

That video is troubling tbh.
No disputing the child ran with a gun from the officer.
No disputing that the child ditched the gun before turning to comply with the officer's instruction.

The officer put a round in the chest of a child who'd followed his instructions.
Yes there was only about 1 second between the gun being ditched and the officer firing.
But, the child was turning with his hands raised and compliant.
The child was doing what he was told when shot.

Was this a training gap?
Should the officer have told the child to drop the weapon, raise their hands above their head and turn slowly?
Certainly, I think it's a huge training and control issue.

But, he was solo in pursuit of an armed suspect and credibly had a believe that the suspect was armed and turning to confront.
He could not have known he was chasing a child, he was chasing an armed suspect.

The community, the politicians and the public safety department in Chicago have questions to face, bridges to build and huge problems to address.
The focus on criminalisation and policing needs to shift more towards family support, early intervention and community engagement.
The easy access to firearms needs to be addressed on a national level in the US.
Illinois has a fairly "strict" gun control regime...
Yet guns are endemic.

At the end of the day, a child is dead.
Yes he had carried a weapon, yes he ran but...
A child who was complying with instruction died because the officer who fired believed he was still carrying that weapon and mismanaged the compliance and control of that child to allow ambiguity, rather than being definite regarding ensuring the weapon was gone and that the child's hands were visible.

Overheal

Effects wrote: »

He was already committing a crime. Do you think police should let people away with crimes, in the hopes that they won't then go on to commit further crimes?

13 year olds should be carrying guns and running away from police at 2.30am.

Has nothing to do with “letting him away” and everything to do with not putting yourself in a tactical position where you are so afraid that a surprise bullet could kill you. Charging 150 m or wherever behind a suspect you think might shoot and kill you is pretty ****ing stupid to begin with, and I am unconvinced that cops cannot use better tools and tactics than that.

If the choice is between an officer dying or a suspect dying in order to arrest them on the mere mental gymnastics that they would go commit another crime, I would very much rather cops de-escalated, rather than them dying, or the suspect dying. Things would be a lot different if the police had actionable intelligence eg. That an abuser was trying to find a victim with his gun, or something. Actionable knowledge, not vapid theory that a third parties life was in imminent mortal peril. Here we have no indication any third party was so imperiled.

Overheal

Effects wrote: »

Or he fired, believing the suspect was raising a gun to shoot him, having witnessed the suspect not complying with his commands leading up to that point.

Sorry but the camera shows otherwise. He fired after the hands were seen.

Overheal

Effects wrote: »

And no one as executed for carrying a weapon.

Then nobody can make the argument that he “got what he deserved” for possessing a weapon.

pjohnson

Effects wrote: »

And no one as executed for carrying a weapon.

True. He wasnt carrying a weapon at the time.

Tell me how

Effects wrote: »

You can't base his judgements on what you see on camera.


Yeah, you want to follow them with drones

No but you can see what exactly was happening and have an opinion on what was a reasonable judgement to make in such scenario.

Overheal

Effects wrote: »

You can't base his judgements on what you see on camera.

I very much can. It’s his own body camera perspective. You’re saying the body camera has no basis here? If you’re not, then, we can base judgements on it. It will certainly, absolutely he used in court as well, seen by a judge and jury. So it’s incredibly laughable to hear someone say “you can’t base judgements on admissible evidence.”

What are you really trying to say here, other than you feel it should be impossible to pass judgement on a cop. Hate to tell you but Qualified Immunity as a philosophy is evaporating, culturally and legally.

Yeah, you want to follow them with drones

Yes. Follow with a drone, see the weapon, wait for backup. Problem? 50 years ago you’d be the first one to balk at the concept of a police helicopter, the rest is history. 150 years before that, “what you want us to arrest them now? Lol”

Within the next 5 years most departments will own several of those Boston dynamics dogs too. We well have remote ground and air recon capability. We don’t need to ask cops to charge down alleyways and put themselves in asinine tactical positions.

Yakult

Tell me how wrote: »

No but you can see what exactly was happening and have an opinion on what was a reasonable judgement to make in such scenario.

Except certain people think they are analytical and pschological masters because they can freeze frame footage and deem their judgement the rule or so be it.. But a police officer has to make that judgment in a split second in the heat of a moment.

Overheal

Effects wrote: »

And a reasonable judgement, in a dark alley, when confronted by a suspect not following commands and holding a gun, is that he can turn towards you and shoot you.

So if that was always the pre judgement then why charge down the alleyway.

breezy1985

Enter name here wrote: »

Well bad parenting and living in a snowflake society will do that to you where you are taught to ignore authority.

Bad parents and snowflakes are not a reason to be shot on the street by the police

Overheal

Yakult wrote: »

Except certain people think they are analytical and pschological masters because they can freeze frame footage and deem their judgement the rule or so be it.. But a police officer has to make that judgment in a split second in the heat of a moment.

Because. They. Are. Trained. To do so.

His reaction to compliance was a split second call to kill the boy.

Tell me how

Effects wrote: »

And a reasonable judgement, in a dark alley, when confronted by a suspect not following commands and holding a gun, is that he can turn towards you and shoot you.

Look it, the cop told him what to do. The kid did it. The cop shot. The kid died.

Why did he tell him to do so, and then react negatively to the kid doing it?

It's just another incident that 10 years ago there'd be no conversation about because there'd be no video.

Overheal

Effects wrote: »

Because you hope the suspect will comply in a clear way, that poses no chance of danger to you or himself.

Ah but you just established that suspect was no complying. And was armed. Why continue to get closer? Why not fall back if an armed suspect is non compliant and you have no backup?

Overheal

Effects wrote: »

I just don't think you understand how drones actually work at the moment.

Do you?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/technology/police-drones.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24jufNhuUSI

I’d say unless we were engineers working specifically on these, then none of us do. But 2 years ago these were prototypes and now are being deployed. To say there will not continue to be leaps and bounds in the use of drones even in the next 5 years? I never said I was calling it a next Monday solution. I don’t even claim it will zero-out the rate of police killings. But it certainly will put fewer cops in split second scenarios.

Overheal

Effects wrote: »

Because you don't want them to escape. Seems obvious.

If not letting him escape means a very high probability your suspect is killed or you are killed, how important is it to make that arrest before backup arrives.