US Police killing of 13 year old Adam Toledo

Overheal

drkpower wrote: »

What broader discussion?

The one we are having.

OMM 0000

breezy1985 wrote: »

Police responded to sounds of shots fired. Show me the evidence he shot at someone or aimed a gun at a cop

Not having guns in society would be my answer. Not perfect here but it works pretty well

Effects wrote: »

We don't know that people were being shot at, do we?

Yes let's ignore the call to the police, the chase, and the police footage of his gun.

Why are you pretending this child is innocent? We all know he's not, so what's the game here? Is it you just want to have a laugh?

Stihl waters

His parents have to take a lot of responsibility in the death of their 13 year old son

drkpower

breezy1985 wrote: »

So if a court finds the cop acted with undue force and does time you I assume will be back on here telling us of your love for the law

No, I will accept the jury’s verdict, I just don’t see one convicting based on what I know now; but that may change if new information arises.

Did you look at the law on lethal,force? It’s pretty short

drkpower

Overheal wrote: »

The one we are having.

The one about whether the kid is bad/good? Utterly pointless.

Overheal

drkpower wrote: »

The one about whether the kid is bad/good? Utterly pointless.

You don't have to comment on that then.

Overheal

drkpower wrote: »

He did but that too is irrelevant. The question is whether the office could reasonably have perceived a life threatening threat when the suspect, who had being carrying a gun, turned around suddenly with his hands raised. The suspects prior refusal to comply is likely to be relevant to that inquiry.

Certainly relevant and mitigating yes. I just don't think it will be an absolution. Regardless of criminal charges for the officer the department will be paying out settlement - and by extension, the Chicago taxpayer, whom will subsequently have a lot of ire for the training and tactics used in their name.

Beasty

We have a separate thread for BLM - please use that rather than this one for BLM discussion

Fandymo

Effects wrote: »

Someone else pointed out that GSR only proves he handled the gun, not that he shot it. I don't know how accurate that statement on GSR is though.

GSR is gun shot residue. You might get a minimal amount holding a recently fired gun, but it’s mainly gunpowder backfiring as you shoot.

breezy1985

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Yes let's ignore the call to the police, the chase, and the police footage of his gun.

Why are you pretending this child is innocent? We all know he's not, so what's the game here? Is it you just want to have a laugh?

Didn't ignore anything I just think a child should not be shot dead even if guilty of something.

I bet if it was the British army who shot a 13 year old standing at a barricade a lot of people here would be singing a different tune

drkpower

Overheal wrote: »

Certainly relevant and mitigating yes. I just don't think it will be an absolution. Regardless of criminal charges for the officer the department will be paying out settlement - and by extension, the Chicago taxpayer, whom will subsequently have a lot of ire for the training and tactics used in their name.

You may well be right re a payout; civil litigation is a different animal and in the US, the potential for massive awards tends towards commercial settlements; add in the political dimension, and I think you are right.

As for the attitude of Chicagoans I’m not sure; I suspect it won’t be dissimilar to this thread; varied. Many will have/will know people who serve at the frontline (across many professions, not just police) and who have a better insight into the decisions one has to make with little time and little information. They will be better able to appreciate the position the officer found himself in than others.

Fandymo

Overheal wrote: »

I’m a taxpayer and a voter. I don’t have a vote to regulate black kids behavior. I have a vote on how police operate and I pay for their operation.

I’m sure you thought you had a zinger there, but it’s a whiff.

Do you live in Chicago? If not then you don’t have a vote on how CPD operate.

Fandymo

Tell me how wrote: »

Look it, the cop told him what to do. The kid did it. The cop shot. The kid died.

Why did he tell him to do so, and then react negatively to the kid doing it?

It's just another incident that 10 years ago there'd be no conversation about because there'd be no video.

He said STOP, put your hands up. Not STOP, turn quickly and raise your hands

breezy1985

drkpower wrote: »

You may well be right re a payout; civil litigation is a different animal and in the US, the potential for massive awards tends towards commercial settlements; add in the political dimension, and I think you are right.

As for the attitude of Chicagoans I’m not sure; I suspect it won’t be dissimilar to this thread; varied. Many will have/will know people who serve at the frontline (across many professions, not just police) and who have a better insight into the decisions one has to make with little time and little information. They will be better able to appreciate the position the officer found himself in than others.

Yes they may be better able to appreciate it and maybe they think he is a murdering scumbag.

You make a fine little assumption there that everyone on the frontline will agree with him

Overheal

Fandymo wrote: »

Do you live in Chicago? If not then you don’t have a vote on how CPD operate.

I refer you to our system of federal government. Body cameras, for instance, was a federal initiative. Without which, you never even would have seen or heard about this incident. In this way, any American always has standing to an opinion on what is happening in America.

breezy1985

Fandymo wrote: »

He said STOP, put your hands up. Not STOP, turn quickly and raise your hands

Ya your right. Deserved to die for that

drkpower

breezy1985 wrote: »

Yes they may be better able to appreciate it and maybe they think he is a murdering scumbag.

You make a fine little assumption there that everyone on the frontline will agree with him

It certainly don’t think, nor did I say, that all will agree with him.

However, they will be able to put themselves in his shoes, which anyone reasonable would try to do. I note that you haven’t. And I doubt you will ever try to so do. You should reflect on that.

Overheal

Fandymo wrote: »

He said STOP, put your hands up. Not STOP, turn quickly and raise your hands

And how is a suspect supposed to know how literally or figurately the cop is ordering them around today? I assure you, it is not always one way or the other.... "Show your ID" not "Stop, turn around, reach into your pocket, close your fingers, pull out your wallet..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XFYTtgZAlE

So, let's dispense with pretending that arguing a 13 year old boy didn't take the cop literally enough or figuratively enough absolves the cop from their responsibilities for the killing.

Also, for the record Fandymo, he didn't say STOP, put your hands up, in so much as he said the following (linked to in the OP):

Stop!” he said. “Stop right ****ing now.”

It’s at this moment that Toledo appeared to have his back to the officer.

“Hey, show me your ****ing hands!” said the officer.

Toledo turned. His hands were pointed up.

“Drop it!” said the officer. “Drop it!”

He opened fire.

Stop right ****ing now, hey, SHOW ME your ****ing hands. He SHOWED him his expletive hands. His hands were already empty when the officer can be heard saying Drop It which comes at the same time as the report of gunfire.

breezy1985

drkpower wrote: »

It certainly don’t think, nor did I say, that all will agree with him.

However, they will be able to put themselves in his shoes, which anyone reasonable would try to do. I note that you haven’t. And I doubt you will ever try to so do. You should reflect on that.

Again massive assumptions. Because I disagree with you I have not put myself in his shoes but I bet you have. I bet you have not tried to put yourself in the shoes of the 13 year old though

And you most certainly insinuated that people on the front line will agree with him.

Mic 1972

All i see is another victim of bad parenting, at 13 wandering around at night with a gun
A culture that celebrates crime and violence can't be good for kids

Overheal

Mic 1972 wrote: »

All i see is another victim of bad parenting, at 13 wandering around at night with a gun

"Armed Police
Use of Force
Police Training
Public Attitudes
Gun Culture
Gang Culture (?)
Poverty
Failing Social Safety Nets
Mental Health
Video Games
Violent Cartoons
The Parents are all I see to blame here. "

drkpower

breezy1985 wrote: »

Again massive assumptions. Because I disagree with you I have not put myself in his shoes but I bet you have. I bet you have not tried to put yourself in the shoes of the 13 year old though

And you most certainly insinuated that people on the front line will agree with him.

I expressly states in response to overheal that not all on the frontline will agree with him. You have chosen to believe what you believe. Your reference to ‘murdering scumbag’ demonstrates no sense of objectivity at all. You have chosen not to put yourself in his shoes, you have chosen not to look at, or engage, with what the law says.

You need to reflect on your own narrow approach.

breezy1985

drkpower wrote: »

I expressly states in response to overheal that not all on the frontline will agree with him. You have chosen to believe what you believe. Your reference to ‘murdering scumbag’ demonstrates no sense of objectivity at all. You have chosen not to put yourself in his shoes, you have chosen not to look at, or engage, with what the law says.

You need to reflect on your own narrow approach.

I put myself in his shoes as much as you did. He shot a child who had dropped his gun and put his hands up. And I bet the law will agree with me when the trial comes.

You are here defending the shooting of a child. You should reflect on that

Mic 1972

Overheal wrote: »

"Armed Police
Use of Force
Police Training
Public Attitudes
Gun Culture
Gang Culture (?)
Poverty
Failing Social Safety Nets
Mental Health
Video Games
Violent Cartoons
The Parents are all I see to blame here. "

Bad parenting and culture are both to blame

that was clearly stated in my post

Overheal

Mic 1972 wrote: »

Bad parenting and culture are both to blame

that was clearly stated in my post

In a subsequent edit yes.

drkpower

breezy1985 wrote: »

I put myself in his shoes as much as you did. He shot a child who had dropped his gun and put his hands up. And I bet the law will agree with me when the trial comes.

You are here defending the shooting of a child. You should reflect on that

If you can explain why his age has any bearing on the officers actions, I’ll listen to you.

Mic 1972

Overheal wrote: »

In a subsequent edit yes.

the subsequent edit was done right after the initial post, not sure what you are trying to prove here.
bad parenting is very definitely the biggest issue here

breezy1985

drkpower wrote: »

If you can explain why his age has any bearing on the officers actions, I’ll listen to you.

I already have.

UDAWINNER

Unarmed Child shot dead, is anyone honestly defending this. Cop should be in jail. Does anyone believe this would happen if the Child was white. Racist Country

Overheal

Mic 1972 wrote: »

the subsequent edit was done right after the initial post, not sure what you are trying to prove here.

I'm stating to you that the post I quoted and wrote a reply to on a new page was your first edit. Your second edit was unbeknownst.