US Police killing of 13 year old Adam Toledo

GreeBo

wicklowstevo wrote: »

he was waling around late at night with a loaded and operational firearm which it seems likely he fired .

that makes him a criminal
those facts on video

Being convicted of a crime makes you a criminal, not a video.

Why is it likely that he fired it?

There are literally tens of millions of people walking around the US with loaded firearms.

GreeBo

Oranage2 wrote: »

Crazy decision making but then you realize it was only a kid.

The cop sees the gun and thinks the suspect is trying to quick draw him. The kid on the other hand think he's doing a magic trick with the gun by switch, throw and show in a dark alley at 2am after firing shots.

Not sure the cop can really be faulted too much here

Is there any evidence that this kid was firing shots?
I know there is residue, but that would be on the gun no matter who fired it.

"thinking" that someone is quick drawing on you isnt acceptable in my opinion, that leads to shooting too many innocent people. What if he had been sneezing?

Ckendrick

It’s almost inevitable now that US police will have no other option but to adopt a policy of not engaging with minorities on any level when it comes to criminal justice.
The black community and their supporters clearly want to be allowed to police themselves. If this results in deaths and loss of property then it will be because that’s what the citizens clearly prefer as opposed to these now daily incidents of the shooting of minorities in highly charged situations.
If it wasn’t what citizens want then they would surely rise up.

Nozebleed

GreeBo wrote: »

Being convicted of a crime makes you a criminal, not a video.

Why is it likely that he fired it?

There are literally tens of millions of people walking around the US with loaded firearms.

10s of millions of legal firearms...anyone walking aroun without a permit is in violation of the law.

GreeBo

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

What appears to have happened:
Two suspects, one young teens and another, adult male. They between them or just one of them, had a loaded firearm and had shot at people. Police responded to a 'shots fired' call.

At police arrival the younger suspect ran away with what the police officer believed to a loaded firearm. The officer gave chase and the younger suspect ignored or at least, didnt respond to verbal commands to stop and at the very end, to drop a weapon.

Didnt respond? He stopped running and put his empty hands up?

Is there any evidence that they shot at anyone?

This is what actually happened:
2:35 a.m.: Multiple ShotSpotter sensors picked up audio of approximately nine gunshots being fired. A short time later, a call went out over radio with the Office of Emergency Management and Communications of shots fired at 2356 South Sawyer, reporting that at least eight rounds had been fired.

2:36 a.m.: The first of two 911 calls provided by COPA was placed. The caller says they heard “six or seven” shots in the 2300 block of South Sawyer.

“I’m hearing a lot of commotion right now,” the caller, who asked to remain anonymous, reported to dispatchers.

2:37 a.m.: The second of the two 911 calls was placed. The female caller says they heard multiple gunshots.

“I just heard gunshots coming from Cermak and Kedzie,” she says. When the dispatcher asks how many shots were fired, she responds “a lot. More than five.”

2:38 a.m.: An officer’s body camera shows them arriving at the scene and exiting the driver’s side door of their squad vehicle. After colliding with a civilian, the officer begins to chase an individual, identified as Adam Toledo, down an alley.

2:38:35 a.m.: The officer’s body camera audio kicks on, as he yells at Toledo to stop and identifies himself as a police officer.

2:38:39 a.m.: Toledo stops at a gap in the fence. The officer yells at him to “show me your f---ing hands.”

Toledo then turns toward the officer and begins to raise his hands, with the officer yelling at him to “drop it.”

A single gunshot is fired, and Toledo falls to the ground.

GreeBo

Nozebleed wrote: »

10s of millions of legal firearms...anyone walking aroun without a permit is in violation of the law.

At which point in the 19 seconds did the cop check his permit?

wicklowstevo

GreeBo wrote: »

Being convicted of a crime makes you a criminal, not a video.

Why is it likely that he fired it?

There are literally tens of millions of people walking around the US with loaded firearms.

so in you opinion the cop should have waited to be fired upon first ?

responding to shots fired call , GSR on hands , why the F else would he be in a ally at 2 am with a loaded hand gun ?

little homicide could have saved his own life , but in your posting its clear you'd be happier if the cop was dead and the kid was alive


committing a crime makes you a criminal , being convicted makes you a convict

GreeBo

Ckendrick wrote: »

It’s almost inevitable now that US police will have no other option but to adopt a policy of not engaging with minorities on any level when it comes to criminal justice.
The black community and their supporters clearly want to be allowed to police themselves. If this results in deaths and loss of property then it will be because that’s what the citizens clearly prefer as opposed to these now daily incidents of the shooting of minorities in highly charged situations.
If it wasn’t what citizens want then they would surely rise up.

I'd leave the "minorities" out of it tbh.
The police need to learn to de-escalate rather than escalate these situations.
They should also be 100$ behind disarming the population that they are supposed to be protecting.

GreeBo

wicklowstevo wrote: »

so in you opinion the cop should have waited to be fired upon first ?

responding to shots fired call , GSR on hands , why the F else would he be in a ally at 2 am with a loaded hand gun ?

little homicide could have saved his own life , but in your posting its clear you'd be happier if the cop was dead and the kid was alive

The cop spotted the GSR on his hands from his car did he?

The cop should have waited until he was sure that there was an actual threat that he needed to use lethal force to prevent.

This could have turned out to be one of the numerous cases where the cops shoot the wrong guy for holding a sandwich for example.

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2020/dec/07/this-is-not-a-gun-cara-levine-interview-objects-police-mistook-for-weapons

If you are entitled to use lethal force, I'd kinda like for you to be sure its required rather than shoot first and be sorry afterwards.

If this was a rare, unfortunate event feelings might be different, but its not at all rare.

Ckendrick

GreeBo wrote: »

Is there any evidence that this kid was firing shots?
I know there is residue, but that would be on the gun no matter who fired it.

"thinking" that someone is quick drawing on you isnt acceptable in my opinion, that leads to shooting too many innocent people. What if he had been sneezing?

Greenbo what if 13 year old kids just weren’t wandering around at night pointing a loaded gun at people? The police can’t win. He shoots someone dead having been treated with kid gloves by the police, they’re wrong. They shoot him to stop that happening, they’re wrong.
Can you give me examples of what steps leaders of the black community in the US are taking to assess the totally unacceptable levels of criminality within themselves?

hotmail.com

At what point will Americans shut up about the rest of the world?

wicklowstevo

GreeBo wrote: »

The cop spotted the GSR on his hands from his car did he?

The cop should have waited until he was sure that there was an actual threat that he needed to use lethal force to prevent.

This could have turned out to be one of the numerous cases where the cops shoot the wrong guy for holding a sandwich for example.

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2020/dec/07/this-is-not-a-gun-cara-levine-interview-objects-police-mistook-for-weapons

If you are entitled to use lethal force, I'd kinda like for you to be sure its required rather than shoot first and be sorry afterwards.

If this was a rare, unfortunate event feelings might be different, but its not at all rare.

how do you know what the cop saw ? do you think he saw the gun before it was dropped and then saw the guy who he saw holding a gun turn towards him?

I d love to hear about you education and experience in policing and law enforcement qualifications.

why would a cop take the chance of being murdered in a ally but some one ? are their lives worth less to you ? would his life be worth more if he was black ?

its not a rare event because the police cannot now engage in crime prevention in Chicago because of left wing racial politics leading to 13 year olds in alleys with guns . your solution seems to be more dead cops.

minikin

GreeBo wrote: »

2:38:39 a.m.: Toledo stops at a gap in the fence. The officer yells at him to “show me your f---ing hands.”

Toledo then turns toward the officer and begins to raise his hands, with the officer yelling at him to “drop it.”

A single gunshot is fired, and Toledo falls to the ground.

The little scrote would be alive if he had stopped immediately, put his hands above his head, allowing the police officer to remove the scrotes handgun from his waistband. But little scrote lessons 101: don’t get caught with evidence (drugs/weapons/stolen property) on you... so he took a chance - handled a gun in front of a cop (in order to dispose of it behind fence)... play stupid games earn stupid prizes.

RandomName2

It would make you angry, only I've seen it too many times to even feel anything anymore.

There's grounds to say that he might have tossed a gun before the shooting, but either way it is irrelevant. The police clearly shot an unarmed kid who was complying. This is not an exception, it's not some weird random event. It is par for the course with them.

Reasonably it can be asked: what more could the victim have done here? Nothing, I think, and there truly lies the problem.

Ckendrick

GreeBo wrote: »

I'd leave the "minorities" out of it tbh.
The police need to learn to de-escalate rather than escalate these situations.
They should also be 100$ behind disarming the population that they are supposed to be protecting.

I don’t understand what your saying here. Are you saying that once they established that this child had a gun that they should have got in their cars and drove away?
Because if that’s what your saying then I wholeheartedly agree.
Best conclusion.
Boy doesn’t get shot dead by cop.
Cop isnt shot dead by boy.
If the boy goes on to shoot some other boys then that’s sad, but it’s not important.

gctest50

RandomName2 wrote: »

............

The police clearly shot an unarmed kid who was complying. ......

He might have had a second handgun

kid ? awww poor innocent kid awww - he was wandering around with a handgun ffs

Tacitus Kilgore

minikin wrote: »

The little scrote would be alive if he had stopped immediately, put his hands above his head, allowing the police officer to remove the scrotes handgun from his waistband. But little scrote lessons 101: don’t get caught with evidence (drugs/weapons/stolen property) on you... so he took a chance - handled a gun in front of a cop (in order to dispose of it behind fence)... play stupid games earn stupid prizes.

gctest50 wrote: »

He might have had a second handgun

kid ? awww poor innocent kid awww - he was wandering around with a handgun ffs

He was 13, that is a child no matter how much you want to de-humanise him.

Sick in the head, both of ye.

RandomName2

gctest50 wrote: »

He might have had a second handgun

He might have had none. :mad:

cheezums

Ckendrick wrote: »

It’s almost inevitable now that US police will have no other option but to adopt a policy of not engaging with minorities on any level when it comes to criminal justice.
The black community and their supporters clearly want to be allowed to police themselves. If this results in deaths and loss of property then it will be because that’s what the citizens clearly prefer as opposed to these now daily incidents of the shooting of minorities in highly charged situations.
If it wasn’t what citizens want then they would surely rise up.

Or they could try properly training their police officers.

"You don't like how we police? Fine! Police yourselves" , i mean that's a sulky teenager response to a problem.

gctest50

RandomName2 wrote: »

He might have had none. :mad:

might

But the fact is he did have one

BloodBath

RandomName2 wrote: »

It would make you angry, only I've seen it too many times to even feel anything anymore.

There's grounds to say that he might have tossed a gun before the shooting, but either way it is irrelevant. The police clearly shot an unarmed kid who was complying. This is not an exception, it's not some weird random event. It is par for the course with them.

Reasonably it can be asked: what more could the victim have done here? Nothing, I think, and there truly lies the problem.

How about not shooting off firearms late at night as a 13 year old, possibly at people, then running from the cops. Then when tired trying to toss the gun and not putting your hands on or above your head. Instead standing sideways blocking the arm the gun is in to try and hide then turning in a shifty and sudden manner putting the ****s up the cop.

How stupid does he have to be?

Some people will make excuses for anything.

RandomName2 wrote: »

He might have had none. :mad:

But he did. You can stop with the mental gymnastics already.

gctest50

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

He was 13, that is a child no matter how much you want to de-humanise him.

Sick in the head, both of ye.

The ShotSpotter picked up eight shots from them

Manic Moran

Overheal wrote: »

Yet, if the officer had used military rules of engagement, the encounter would not have ended with Adam Toledo dead, and he would have shown his empty hands to the officer and been taken under arrest to face due process in the criminal justice system.

Conversely, if military ROE had been used and Toledo shot, that's also unacceptable, hence, my above discussion on using police tactics that avoid scenarios where it effectively boils down to a game of chicken between a police officer and a suspect who may pull out a weapon by surprise.

This is the second time you've mentioned this, I think you may have a misunderstanding of how military ROE work. The kid would have been just as dead had be been confronted by a soldier. Irish soldiers have an escalation of force continuum certain steps of which may be skipped if the situation so indicates. US ROE are never as cut and dry as "the other guy must shoot first", as either the wording is such that one may "shoot at a threat" or there is a note that the ROE presents an ideal which need not always apply, normally worded akin to "Nothing in these RoE prohibit you from taking actions necessary to protect yourself or your unit". See for example the big boxed writing at the top of this ROE card. https://i.redd.it/pfor2mdu1uvz.jpg

Tacitus Kilgore

gctest50 wrote: »

The ShotSpotter picked up eight shots from them

And?

What's that got to do with what you quoted?

BloodBath

Looking at these picture again I noticed something. The guns mag is empty. The receiver is back leaving the barrel exposed at the front and the receiver trailing back behind the grip. Who's to say he wouldn't have used it if he had ammo.

Not a gun expert either, forgive me if I used the wrong terminology for certain parts. Does lend credence to him having fired the gun already though.



Looks somewhat like this.

GreeBo

GreeBo wrote: »

Didnt respond? He stopped running and put his empty hands up?

Is there any evidence that they shot at anyone?

This is what actually happened:
2:35 a.m.: Multiple ShotSpotter sensors picked up audio of approximately nine gunshots being fired. A short time later, a call went out over radio with the Office of Emergency Management and Communications of shots fired at 2356 South Sawyer, reporting that at least eight rounds had been fired.

2:36 a.m.: The first of two 911 calls provided by COPA was placed. The caller says they heard “six or seven” shots in the 2300 block of South Sawyer.

“I’m hearing a lot of commotion right now,” the caller, who asked to remain anonymous, reported to dispatchers.

2:37 a.m.: The second of the two 911 calls was placed. The female caller says they heard multiple gunshots.

“I just heard gunshots coming from Cermak and Kedzie,” she says. When the dispatcher asks how many shots were fired, she responds “a lot. More than five.”

2:38 a.m.: An officer’s body camera shows them arriving at the scene and exiting the driver’s side door of their squad vehicle. After colliding with a civilian, the officer begins to chase an individual, identified as Adam Toledo, down an alley.

2:38:35 a.m.: The officer’s body camera audio kicks on, as he yells at Toledo to stop and identifies himself as a police officer.

2:38:39 a.m.: Toledo stops at a gap in the fence. The officer yells at him to “show me your f---ing hands.”

Toledo then turns toward the officer and begins to raise his hands, with the officer yelling at him to “drop it.”

A single gunshot is fired, and Toledo falls to the ground.

No, he didnt. At what point was he told to continue running for another 100 yards? At what point was he told to turn around?

He ran from police. He was holding a gun. that gun HAD been fired, no twisting. thats a fact. He turned around to face a police officer WITH A GUN IN HIS HAND as he turned.

You have ignored very saliant facts. People are judged in real time, not freeze frame over 24 hours. This is armchair QB at its finest. Of someone who was out trying to protect people from criminals.

But its you and you have form, usual suspects in this thread that will blame the expendable police who should wait until shot before 'knowing' that someone is drawing on them. Hey, as long as they keep getting recruits, we can keep burying em eh?

GreeBo wrote: »

Is there any evidence that this kid was firing shots?
I know there is residue, but that would be on the gun no matter who fired it.

"thinking" that someone is quick drawing on you isnt acceptable in my opinion, that leads to shooting too many innocent people. What if he had been sneezing?

Jesus Christ. Waiting to 'know' means too many dead police officers BECAUSE THEY WILL ALL GET SHOT. Do you have any concept of the timeframes at play here? have you ever even held a firearm nevermind tried to quick draw someone Billy?

cheezums wrote: »

Or they could try properly training their police officers.

"You don't like how we police? Fine! Police yourselves" , i mean that's a sulky teenager response to a problem.

Who are you to decide they arent property trained? Its also a very accurate response. Critisise your doctor and mechanic, see if they continue to serve you.


The amount of absolutely arrogant idiots in this thread is staggering.

GreeBo

Ckendrick wrote: »

Greenbo what if 13 year old kids just weren’t wandering around at night pointing a loaded gun at people?

Ignoring the fact that I don't believe there is any evidence he pointed out so anyone, it would obviously be good if teens didn't have guns. But that's the reality of the situation in the US, it's not a surprise to anyone, certainly not the cops.

GreeBo

wicklowstevo wrote: »

how do you know what the cop saw ? do you think he saw the gun before it was dropped and then saw the guy who he saw holding a gun turn towards him?

I d love to hear about you education and experience in policing and law enforcement qualifications.

why would a cop take the chance of being murdered in a ally but some one ? are their lives worth less to you ? would his life be worth more if he was black ?

its not a rare event because the police cannot now engage in crime prevention in Chicago because of left wing racial politics leading to 13 year olds in alleys with guns . your solution seems to be more dead cops.

What evidence do you have for the victim shooting at the cop? You have none.
I have evidence that the cop shot and killed a victim who was obeying instructions.

BloodBath

GreeBo wrote: »

What evidence do you have for the victim shooting at the cop? You have none.
I have evidence that the cop shot and killed a victim who was obeying instructions.

He didn't shoot at the cop because he had no ammo left from his previous shooting escapades.

He did have the gun in his hand seconds before being shot though. Stop making excuses.

How about you direct some of of that "empathy" towards the cop and the situation he was in.

Tacitus Kilgore

minikin wrote: »

Sick in the head???
A child would be home in bed at three in the morning.
A child would not be out popping caps at three in the morning.
This was an apprentice scrote, no loss.
Jog on stormtrooper.

He was 13, he was a child, no amount of de-humanising from you or the rest of them will change that.

You - are the scrote here. Take a look at yourself, sicko.