Planting Hardwood Advice

Covid21

Any advice would be a great help?

I have had a meeting with a Greenbelt rep about planting some of my farm. The land is suitable for Hardwood but the greenbelt rep is pushing Sitka? Don’t know why?

Sitka is €210 per acre
Hardwood is €275 per acre

In my lifetime I’ll never see the harvest off the Sitka, just wondering if anyone has had any dealings with Greenbelt or has any advice on this matter?

Thanks very much in advance.

Water John

It's your field, I suppose is the first point. You do a bit of study on the subject and have a fair idea of what you want. If a Co doesn't seem to be willing to support you in the process, time to move on.
Sitka would certainly be the fastest to maturity, possibly less than 30 years. You will have to plant a mix for grant purposes anyway.
A good place to start, whilst a slightly different take is the 2 day Agroforestry Course run by NOTS earlier this week online. All the recordings are available for €40 and there's a Q & A next Tues evening to tune into also. Best investment you could make ATM.
https://nots.ie/events/agroforestry-conference-2021-april-12th-13th/

Birdnuts

Covid21 wrote: »

Any advice would be a great help?

I have had a meeting with a Greenbelt rep about planting some of my farm. The land is suitable for Hardwood but the greenbelt rep is pushing Sitka? Don’t know why?

Sitka is €210 per acre
Hardwood is €275 per acre

In my lifetime I’ll never see the harvest off the Sitka, just wondering if anyone has had any dealings with Greenbelt or has any advice on this matter?

Thanks very much in advance.

Probably a lack of expertise in growing anything but Sitka thanx to primitive state forestry policies over the decades. Government claims to be trying to change that approach but like Teagasc and their attitude to sustaineable farming, its like trying to turn an oil tanker in the Suez.:rolleyes:

timfromtang

Covid21 wrote: »

Any advice would be a great help?

I have had a meeting with a Greenbelt rep about planting some of my farm. The land is suitable for Hardwood but the greenbelt rep is pushing Sitka? Don’t know why?

Sitka is €210 per acre
Hardwood is €275 per acre

In my lifetime I’ll never see the harvest off the Sitka, just wondering if anyone has had any dealings with Greenbelt or has any advice on this matter?

Thanks very much in advance.

I'd say you'll be much happier with a hardwood forest, much nicer to walk through etc, more wildlife, go for diversity (lots of species include some softwoods too) which will greatly improve growth rates and resilience against disease.
What do you imagine your forest will be used for?
What species would best suit your objectives?
What species will grow well on your site?
etc etc


there are other forest companies out there, and some independent foresters too, i'd say shop around so to speak.


gov.ie publish a list of registered irish foresters, with contact details etc, call around.




tim

Fuzzo

Check out the Teagasc website for some nice straight forward information as to whats involved in the management of a broadleaf or sitka forest. You could also contact your local forest advisor for information, its a free service.

Depending on the size you could always split the site and plant different species in different plots. Ultimately its your land and your forest so its up to you, I'd second the advice of trying another forester.

Accidentally

Fully agree with the previous posts. If a fast crop is not an issue for you, hardwood is the way to go. From a recreational and enjoyment point of view, it's a world away from Sitka spruce. You'd could put some scots pine or larch in your hardwood mix if you want some conifers.

If the forester isn't on board, find another forester

blue5000

Just a few questions rather than answers, sorry.

How big is the plot of land?

What type of soil is it, peaty/boggy or free draining brown earth, acidic or neutral pH?

You say that you won't see the Sitka harvested. If I was going to inherit land I wouldn't see any money out of hardwoods planted now either. Perhaps talk to the person you are going to leave it to before you plant. There is a saying around here, 'if you hate your relations, plant hardwoods'.

Sitka is a great tree on soils that won't grow a decent hardwood, cash flow doesn't seem to be an issue for you, but whoever is coming after you might appreciate some mature trees to harvest. Like some have said already, put in a mix of species. Main reason I say this is look what happened to Ash.

Greenbelt planted for me and I'm happy with the job they did.

Have a chat with teagasc, they are independent, they have a good few videos on forestry up on youtube as well

https://www.teagasc.ie/crops/forestry/advice/

biddyearley

Birdnuts wrote: »

Probably a lack of expertise in growing anything but Sitka thanx to primitive state forestry policies over the decades. Government claims to be trying to change that approach but like Teagasc and their attitude to sustaineable farming, its like trying to turn an oil tanker in the Suez.:rolleyes:

Your moniker should be Birdbrain.


Read the history of Irish forestry and understand why it has developed as it has. You cannot grow wheat on a bog.

biddyearley

Covid21 wrote: »

Any advice would be a great help?

I have had a meeting with a Greenbelt rep about planting some of my farm. The land is suitable for Hardwood but the greenbelt rep is pushing Sitka? Don’t know why?

Sitka is €210 per acre
Hardwood is €275 per acre

In my lifetime I’ll never see the harvest off the Sitka, just wondering if anyone has had any dealings with Greenbelt or has any advice on this matter?

Thanks very much in advance.[/QUOTE


Hi, the land can only grow what it can sustain. If the juice ain't in it, it will not produce the goods. Your broadleaves might survive but not thrive. Then there's the added problem of Bambi and his extended family. Deerfencing and tree shelters are mandatory in deer infested areas.


How old are you? On good sitka producing land you can see a clearfell as early as 25 years with judicious thinning and maintenance.


Remember, your forester is the tree expert. There is a reason why broadleaves are absent from so many areas, and you can find the remnants of the trees under the bogs. Climate change 5000 years ago coupled with the interaction of man decimated the forests and they died out.


I say all of this without knowing what your site is capable of doing, and while not an employee of Greenbelt now or ever, they know what they are doing. Talk to the forester and ask questions.



Good luck with your venture.

Water John

biddyearley wrote: »

Covid21 wrote: »

Any advice would be a great help?

I have had a meeting with a Greenbelt rep about planting some of my farm. The land is suitable for Hardwood but the greenbelt rep is pushing Sitka? Don’t know why?

Sitka is €210 per acre
Hardwood is €275 per acre

In my lifetime I’ll never see the harvest off the Sitka, just wondering if anyone has had any dealings with Greenbelt or has any advice on this matter?

Thanks very much in advance.[/QUOTE

All I know is that New Zealand decided to go with Douglas Fir as their main commercial tree. A far nicer tree and better wood.

Hi, the land can only grow what it can sustain. If the juice ain't in it, it will not produce the goods. Your broadleaves might survive but not thrive. Then there's the added problem of Bambi and his extended family. Deerfencing and tree shelters are mandatory in deer infested areas.


How old are you? On good sitka producing land you can see a clearfell as early as 25 years with judicious thinning and maintenance.


Remember, your forester is the tree expert. There is a reason why broadleaves are absent from so many areas, and you can find the remnants of the trees under the bogs. Climate change 5000 years ago coupled with the interaction of man decimated the forests and they died out.


I say all of this without knowing what your site is capable of doing, and while not an employee of Greenbelt now or ever, they know what they are doing. Talk to the forester and ask questions.



Good luck with your venture.

Birdnuts

biddyearley wrote: »

Your moniker should be Birdbrain.


Read the history of Irish forestry and understand why it has developed as it has. You cannot grow wheat on a bog.

I see plenty of how its developed around my place in North Mayo - windthrown spruce on peatlands that produced little more than wet pulp. So spare me your "wisdom" on the subject:rolleyes:

biddyearley

Birdnuts wrote: »

I see plenty of how its developed around my place in North Mayo - windthrown spruce on peatlands that produced little more than wet pulp. So spare me your "wisdom" on the subject:rolleyes:

It's called "social forestry".


You've raised so many questions,eg stability of the site. Was it single mould board ploughing or mounding? Was there ever a thinning regime? Were the sites adequately drained?


Vast areas of the western peats were afforested in the 50s and 60s in order to produce timber, but also to create employment. With the best advice at the time, the state did what it believed was the right thing. With the same intent the raised midland bogs were harvested. Ideas about whether or not this was a good thing are now changing.



If you go under the peat you will find Scots pine and oak. As I said, they died out because growing conditions were unfavorable. Do want the state to plant western peats with these species?


Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and the realities are multifaceted and occasionally complex and contrary to what people want to hear.

blue5000

biddyearley wrote: »

Your moniker should be Birdbrain.


Read the history of Irish forestry and understand why it has developed as it has. You cannot grow wheat on a bog.

Mod note; quit the personal attacks, just because you don't agree with the poster doesn't mean you can resort to name calling.

Birdnuts

biddyearley wrote: »

It's called "social forestry".


You've raised so many questions,eg stability of the site. Was it single mould board ploughing or mounding? Was there ever a thinning regime? Were the sites adequately drained?


Vast areas of the western peats were afforested in the 50s and 60s in order to produce timber, but also to create employment. With the best advice at the time, the state did what it believed was the right thing. With the same intent the raised midland bogs were harvested. Ideas about whether or not this was a good thing are now changing.



If you go under the peat you will find Scots pine and oak. As I said, they died out because growing conditions were unfavorable. Do want the state to plant western peats with these species?


Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and the realities are multifaceted and occasionally complex and contrary to what people want to hear.

I'm well aware of the history of natural forest cover in the area ie. early clearing by first farmers followed by climate deteriation leading to acidic conditions that favoured blanket bog development over the last 5k years. Also aware of the many issues surrounding blanket afforestation with non-native spruce on such sites, and the fact that many will not be replanted due to the poor quality of the timber "recovered"

Mollydog123

I have 32 acres planted in Clare for 29 years. one thing about Sitka is that they are much more likely to be blown over in a bad storm as they have plate roots(i.e. very shallow). I lost about 3 acres in a bad storm(2014I think). I also have Sycamore which have taproots and didn't lose one of them. I had very tall Sitka that blew over on much smaller Sycamore and even that didn't knock the Sycamore over.

Fuzzo

Mollydog123 wrote: »

I have 32 acres planted in Clare for 29 years. one thing about Sitka is that they are much more likely to be blown over in a bad storm as they have plate roots(i.e. very shallow). I lost about 3 acres in a bad storm(2014I think). I also have Sycamore which have taproots and didn't lose one of them. I had very tall Sitka that blew over on much smaller Sycamore and even that didn't knock the Sycamore over.

But Sycamore won’t deliver the same return at the sawmill as Sitka, so it’s not really a fair comparison. Chances of windblow can be reduced if your harvesting manager and harvesting driver are good.

I’ve come across a few small sycamore plantations and couldn’t understand why it was planted, it’s not native, has less biodiversity value then Sitka, is invasive and the timber’s not in great demand. Am I missing something?

Mollydog123

Fuzzo wrote: »

But Sycamore won’t deliver the same return at the sawmill as Sitka, so it’s not really a fair comparison. Chances of windblow can be reduced if your harvesting manager and harvesting driver are good.

I’ve come across a few small sycamore plantations and couldn’t understand why it was planted, it’s not native, has less biodiversity value then Sitka, is invasive and the timber’s not in great demand. Am I missing something?

I think location is important for windblow as well, as a lot of plantations around me were devastated as we are only 3k from the sea as the crow flies. When I planted you had to go 10% non Sitka so the Sycamore were really only for ornamental/aesthetic value, not really for profit. Id agree re planting Sycamore, but if your Sitka's are not straight they may only be of use for firewood.

Fuzzo

Mollydog123 wrote: »

I think location is important for windblow as well, as a lot of plantations around me were devastated as we are only 3k from the sea as the crow flies. When I planted you had to go 10% non Sitka so the Sycamore were really only for ornamental/aesthetic value, not really for profit. Id agree re planting Sycamore, but if your Sitka's are not straight they may only be of use for firewood.

Ah sorry I thought you where talking about syc as the crop tree, I’ve seen small planted areas of it twice and still can’t understand.

Yeh your definitely right about location being the biggest factor for windblow, I wonder is there a deeper rooting tree you can plant as a mix to improve stability on such sites?

Markcheese

Basically ,get another Forester in to give advice ,
( Like when you're getting building work done ,get 3 quotes ,)
But if you can either teagaac or coillte if they have any suggestions for guys who'd be sympathetic to what you want to do , might be a start ..