Accruing holiday pay-paying staff early

antix80

Op
Not really. That's like saying "your holidays are factored into your pay".. You'll find yourself paying a holiday entitlement on top of that as it's not going to fly.

Also you can't change terms, frequency, method of pay without agreement.

Mrs OBumble

ted1 wrote: »

It’s miserable as you are to cheap to pay for a payroll system that can easily do the system.

If you can’t calculate holiday pay. How do you know what holidays they are entitled too?

The OP has very clearly explained that they can and calculate it. And with PMOD, there's no way in hell that they're doing an 80 person payroll without a system.

But the issue is the time taken to explain the calculations to the employees.

brenno1

ted1 wrote: »

It’s miserable as you are to cheap to pay for a payroll system that can easily do the system.

If you can’t calculate holiday pay. How do you know what holidays they are entitled too?

Your inability to actually read and understand the post is embarrassing for you now.

When did i say I don't have a payroll system?

The irony is that your responses are exactly the issues im grappling with in the workplace; people failing to understand information after explaining it numerous times.

brenno1

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

The OP has very clearly explained that they can and calculate it. And with PMOD, there's no way in hell that they're doing an 80 person payroll without a system.

But the issue is the time taken to explain the calculations to the employees.

Thank you, at last someone who gets it. I was starting to feel like im in work with this thread. It is nearly as painful. Haha.

Mrs OBumble

I know

I stand by my earlier suggestion re getting professional advice. Your may just be one of the exception scenarios where what you suggest is legal.

brenno1

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I know

I stand by my earlier suggestion re getting professional advice. Your may just be one of the exception scenarios where what you suggest is legal.

Agreed thank you. Just want to take the confusion out of it for the employees. It wastes so much time explaining. And even a fancier HR system than the standard Micopay package we have i dont think would explain it to them any better. They are great bunch of staff that work hard and want it seamless for them.

brenno1

antix80 wrote: »

Op
Not really. That's like saying "your holidays are factored into your pay".. You'll find yourself paying a holiday entitlement on top of that as it's not going to fly.

Also you can't change terms, frequency, method of pay without agreement.

Agreed. No intention of changing anything without agreement. More questioning the legalities of it.

dennyk

brenno1 wrote: »

Agreed thank you. Just want to take the confusion out of it for the employees. It wastes so much time explaining. And even a fancier HR system than the standard Micopay package we have i dont think would explain it to them any better. They are great bunch of staff that work hard and want it seamless for them.

If you really want to remove the confusion, just give everyone four weeks a year of annual leave and that will solve all your problems.

brenno1

dennyk wrote: »

If you really want to remove the confusion, just give everyone four weeks a year of annual leave and that will solve all your problems.

Most staff work varying hours per week, some on relief work etc, we have been advised the 8% of hours worked is best approach for our workforce.

dennyk

brenno1 wrote: »

Most staff work varying hours per week, some on relief work etc, we have been advised the 8% of hours worked is best approach for our workforce.

Do you have a lot of staff that work fewer than 1,365 hours during the leave year (April to March)? Anyone working 1,365 hours or more in the leave year is entitled to four weeks of leave anyway, so unless you have a lot of staff members working fewer hours per year than that, you're probably not saving much by getting nitpicky with annual leave for those few staff members who would be under the 8% rule compared to the time you're apparently spending trying to calculate their accruals and explain the whole system to them repeatedly.

If you're using the 8% method for staff who do work more than 1,365 hours a year, that isn't correct, and is going to be an issue for you if anyone complains that they're being shorted on their annual leave entitlement.

brenno1

dennyk wrote: »

Do you have a lot of staff that work fewer than 1,365 hours during the leave year (April to March)? Anyone working 1,365 hours or more in the leave year is entitled to four weeks of leave anyway, so unless you have a lot of staff members working fewer hours per year than that, you're probably not saving much by getting nitpicky with annual leave for those few staff members who would be under the 8% rule compared to the time you're apparently spending trying to calculate their accruals and explain the whole system to them repeatedly.

If you're using the 8% method for staff who do work more than 1,365 hours a year, that isn't correct, and is going to be an issue for you if anyone complains that they're being shorted on their annual leave entitlement.

We have 10 staff on a salaried 35 hour a week payroll who get 24 days a year entitlement. This is a monthly payroll.No issue with these staff.

The other 55 are all hourly paid and maný work different hours depending on their availability and the needs of the business. Some are on relief so could work 30 hours one week and 5 hours the next. It is messy...not to mention bank holidays and their other leave entitlements and shift premiums etc. About 20 of the staff work certain relatively standard shift patterns of 21 hours per week but again they will do extra hours if needed or request less hours some weeks.

dennyk

Christ, that is messy, especially keeping up with all the regulations around such varied working hours anyway, like minimum payments and such. Still might be worth considering a fixed four working weeks of annual leave for those folks just to simplify things, but if you genuinely can't afford that, just tell them flat out that they accrue 8% of their hours worked as annual leave during each pay period; that should be straightforward enough.

Actually paying that 8% immediately as it's earned is still not a great idea, though, as that's likely to end with a WRC complaint eventually, and I suspect you might not come out the winner. Unless you are absolutely militant about forcing all employees paid in such a manner to actually take all of their leave hours each year (including that unbroken two week period of leave per year that the law requires but that many forget is actually a legal entitlement), there is a real risk that it will appear to the WRC or the court that you are doing your annual leave payments that way to deliberately discourage your employees from actually using their leave and effectively give them payment in lieu instead, which would be a violation of the law.

cdeb

dennyk wrote: »

but if you genuinely can't afford that, just tell them flat out that they accrue 8% of their hours worked as annual leave during each pay period; that should be straightforward enough.

It's not a matter of affording it - it seems to be that it's not straightforward (from the point of view of the employees understanding it anyway)

It's why I think the best option is the weekly log tying into the payslips. They can see the hours they worked each week, the annual leave that accrued, and when they were paid their leave.

If they still can't understand that, you need new staff

dennyk

cdeb wrote: »

It's not a matter of affording it - it seems to be that it's not straightforward (from the point of view of the employees understanding it anyway)

It would be straightforward if they just gave everyone four weeks, full stop. That would mean giving some (maybe most) of those part-time zero-hour-esque folks more annual leave than their minimum entitlements, though, which might not be in the budget.

cdeb

Fair enough; mis-read that.

It still seems unnecessary though.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Consider using a package that produces payslips with total cumulative hours worked to date on them.

It becomes easy to calculate and very transparent when your payslip is a constantly updating document showing the whole thing.

Cumulative
Normal working: 1000 hours
Holiday pay: 40 hours

Get a calculator out. 1000*8%=80-40=40.

A lot of these systems won't keep the cumulative hours worked on the payslip.

marko99

I do the payroll for a sports club which has one year round part time (8 hours per week) employee and up to 20 temporary full-time employees in the summer season (some working just one or two weeks, others doing up to 10 or 11 weeks). We pay holiday pay as it is accrued, i.e. a separate line on payslip for holiday pay with an additional 8% on top of agreed hourly rate. It would be impossible to manage otherwise with a number of employees only being hired for very short periods as demand for training courses dictates.

Mrs OBumble

dennyk wrote: »

It would be straightforward if they just gave everyone four weeks, full stop. That would mean giving some (maybe most) of those part-time zero-hour-esque folks more annual leave than their minimum entitlements, though, which might not be in the budget.

Nope, it would mean some get less than their entitlements.

Imagine someone who regularly does 10 a week, but occasionally does more.

If you give them 4 weeks at 10 hours per week, they don't get any extra leave entitlement for the weeks when they worked more.

mrslancaster

brenno1 wrote: »

Most staff work varying hours per week, some on relief work etc, we have been advised the 8% of hours worked is best approach for our workforce.

I thought the legislation said that the rate of pay for holidays for non salaried employees should be based on the previous 13 weeks & paid in advance of annual leave.

the 8% is just one method of calculating the amount of annual leave due up to a max of 4 weeks.

Paying 8% might not always be the correct rate even if the number of hours are right.

Love2love

How would that work for statutory unpaid leave that accrues holiday pay? For instance, accruing annual leave whilst on Maternity Leave (assuming you don't top up) or Parental Leave, Carer's Leave, Sick Leave or the likes of that?

Kewreeuss

Hi OP, have you decided anything yet?

Purple Mountain

What if you pay them upfront and then they leave before before they would have had their paid amount of days accrued?

I worked in a place once whereby if you took a day off on a/l you weren't paid those days but at year end you'd get it in a lump sum.
I was quite resentful of that practice because I never saw it anywhere else.