Plumber and Electrician survey after Surveyor to buy house?

brio09

Hi! I'm buying a well-maintained house in south Dublin with a B3 rating. Since I'm sale agreed, I contracted a surveyor to survey the house. They surveyed it and as a part of their report, they suggested getting plumbing and electrician and heating etc. checking before closing the sale. I'm pasting their text below.

Some say this is a CYA tactic of the surveyor. at the same time, this is the only part of the entire report where the surveyor recommended to get something done before closing the sale. rest all the loose tiles, not working vent, fixing flashing, fixing seal around doors, etc. were all relegated to after-sale.

I'm sure others might've come across such a confusion when buying a house.

1) if you've faced the potential of additional survey when buying a house - what did you do?
2) if you hired a plumber or an electrician to survey the house, what did you ask them to review in the house?

Thanks!

It is important that you know as much as possible about the condition of the utilities and services at a property before you close the sale.
In general, there are 3 steps involved in gathering information about the utilities/services, i.e.
Step 1: Get a survey done which includes an overview of utilities and services at the property. (This report)
Step 2: Gather available documentation e.g. design, installation, service/maintenance records. (Action recommended. Customer to organize).
Step 3: Engage the services of suitably qualified professional(s) to obtain the exact condition and status of these systems before closing the sale. Note that the building engineer surveying the property is not a qualified electrician, plumber or heating system service engineer. (Action recommended. Customer to organize).
This survey (step 1 above) includes a cursory inspection of utilities/ services which means it covers the following only: -
* Establishing whether the system is functioning or not.
* Looking for signs of wear and tear visible at the time of inspection.
NO testing or opening-up of any systems or fittings is undertaken.

arccosh

a certain amount of that is arse covering by the surveyor.

Should you get it done, probably.... do people get it done, not a lot of the time...

A lot of it depends on the current homeowners agreeing to stuff being done also, at their, or possibly your own expense, and delay in selling the property..

Which in turn leads to having a solicitor on tab for extended time, possible breakdown of sale if an issue is found and neither wants to pay etc...

I'm not saying not to get them in, a house will more than likely be your biggest investment, and if you think something isn't right, or if it makes you feel better about the sale, by all means plough ahead...

But you need to look at the overall picture.. electrics are meant to be tested yearly and inspected every 10 years (sockets and switched off etc...) does anyone do this? Is this something that definitely needs to be done before the sale or would you be happy to proceed at risk?

Then there's the other side where you get people in, all is good and a pipe bursts the week you move in....

It's very much a case by case basis thing..

Most people are happy with the surveyors report as that's all that's needed to progress the sale (unless they highlight any reds)

brio09

arccosh wrote: »

a certain amount of that is arse covering by the surveyor.

Should you get it done, probably.... do people get it done, not a lot of the time...

A lot of it depends on the current homeowners agreeing to stuff being done also, at their, or possibly your own expense, and delay in selling the property..

Which in turn leads to having a solicitor on tab for extended time, possible breakdown of sale if an issue is found and neither wants to pay etc...

I'm not saying not to get them in, a house will more than likely be your biggest investment, and if you think something isn't right, or if it makes you feel better about the sale, by all means plough ahead...

But you need to look at the overall picture.. electrics are meant to be tested yearly and inspected every 10 years (sockets and switched off etc...) does anyone do this? Is this something that definitely needs to be done before the sale or would you be happy to proceed at risk?

Then there's the other side where you get people in, all is good and a pipe bursts the week you move in....

It's very much a case by case basis thing..

Most people are happy with the surveyors report as that's all that's needed to progress the sale (unless they highlight any reds)

thank you that is helpful to hear. if elec. and water needs to be tested every year and it is working well enough for the family to happily live there and high-level survey to come out well, then maybe we can do that kinda inspection after getting the space, where we can also discuss what changes we want etc. based on the results.

Manion

Regardless of qualifications, different surveyors will do different jobs. When we bought our house, we go a surveyor that specialised in new build properties, and he was primarily focused on structural issues. He spotted a few, but we could have also done with a surveyor specialising in snagging.

I don't think what you've outlined is really a case of the surveyor trying to cover his own ass since you have no recourse. Checking electrics and plumbing is categorically not in the job description. By including it in the report, he's making it explicitly clear these are things he has not done for you and advise you to get a look. Perhaps he suspects there is something you should look into regarding these items but is unwilling to put it in the report, given that it's not his area of expertise.

Friends of ours bought a house a few years ago that used to have an oil boiler but had been upgraded to Gas. I immediately asked them if the gun barrel pipes had been removed. Sure enough, they discovered that though the boiler had been replaced much of the central heating system piping had remained untouched. Too late then to go back to the vendor and argue down the price.

Victor

With any existing building, expect to spend money on the plumbing and electrics. Existing occupiers will almost always tolerate issues that new occupiers won't, e.g. that one light in the living room that doesn't work or the lack of power points in the kitchen.

Haggling over defects of any type may or may not get you somewhere.

Eire Go Brach

I’m in a very similar situation. Survey came back. Structural sound and well maintained. The plumbing and electrics are working as they should. Handling the load etc.
The fuse board is the old type plus the water tank is galvanised though.
They recommend changing them out. Water tank is not a huge concern. But now I’m worried about a rewire. Taking advice on the electrics now.

Claw Hammer

In many houses the central heating boiler may be old on its last legs or relatively new and not well maintained and won't last the full potential lifespan. Electrics may be out of date or have had DIY jobs done or both.
Most owners would tell you no go bugger if you try to probe. These issues are not deal breakers imo. Even if perfect now, they will need to be replaced or upgraded at some point.
If they are so bad that you couldn't live with them, that should be obvious, not just to an expert but to anyone.

Extra user.

Eire Go Brach wrote: »

I’m in a very similar situation. Survey came back. Structural sound and well maintained. The plumbing and electrics are working as they should. Handling the load etc.
The fuse board is the old type plus the water tank is galvanised though.
They recommend changing them out. Water tank is not a huge concern. But now I’m worried about a rewire. Taking advice on the electrics now.

A surveyor recommending changing the fuseboard out

Useless advise really

Ime surveyors know little bits of information about electrical installations but not enough to advise anything worthwhile

Manion

Extra user. wrote: »

A surveyor recommending changing the fuse board out

Useless advise really

Ime surveyors know little bits of information about electrical installations but not enough to advise anything worthwhile

Not sure how it's useless advice, you don't need to be an expert to take one look at an old-style fuse board and recommend replacement.

Some_randomer

brio09 wrote: »

Hi! I'm buying a well-maintained house in south Dublin with a B3 rating. Since I'm sale agreed, I contracted a surveyor to survey the house.

Op just wondering why you waited until after you were sale agreed to get the survey? I'd have thought a survey would be done first to spot any major issues or show stoppers, or to get the price down if problems were found that needed a lot of work or money to fix.

AngryLips

The house I bought was built in the thirties. The survey recommended a massive long list of additional things that should be checked. Honestly, they're most likely just indemnifying themselves. I'd call them up and have a chat to them to get a feeling for their impression of the house if you're that concerned - you'll know from talking to them to what degree it's just ass covering.

Kaybaykwah

Some_randomer wrote: »

Op just wondering why you waited until after you were sale agreed to get the survey? I'd have thought a survey would be done first to spot any major issues or show stoppers, or to get the price down if problems were found that needed a lot of work or money to fix.

That is the way it usually works. You make an offer, which when accepted by the seller, is dependent on a survey. The survey will be the main technicality attached to the offer that can result in a price diminution, or an outright refusal to go ahead with the purchase by the buyer.

Some_randomer

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

That is the way it usually works. You make an offer, which when accepted by the seller, is dependent on a survey. The survey will be the main technicality attached to the offer that can result in a price diminution, or an outright refusal to go ahead with the purchase by the buyer.

Ok thanks, I would have thought it makes more sense to get it done first. I know you might end up spending money on a few surveys but surely it saves the hassle of going all the way to sale agreed only to find a major flaw or show stopper?

Kaybaykwah

Some_randomer wrote: »

Ok thanks, I would have thought it makes more sense to get it done first. I know you might end up spending money on a few surveys but surely it saves the hassle of going all the way to sale agreed only to find a major flaw or show stopper?

I suppose you could have a survey done before a sale agreed, but the cost is the same. You always have the discretion of pulling out of a purchase when you have done due diligence. You would only do surveys on a property that is worthwhile to you, and lock it in, hoping that the survey doesn't reveal something particularly off-putting It has happened to me tohave an offer accepted, do the survey, only to find out that the Attic of a very old house had caught fire 40 years prior. The roof trusses were calcinated. The seller and her agent had not mentioned anything about it and we pulled out.

arccosh

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

That is the way it usually works. You make an offer, which when accepted by the seller, is dependent on a survey. The survey will be the main technicality attached to the offer that can result in a price diminution, or an outright refusal to go ahead with the purchase by the buyer.

Mortgage approvals also depend on the survey valuation ....

If someone is selling at 400k but the house is valued at 350k by the surveyor, the bank will usually only give you the 350k....

Loaning at the 400k, 50k is dead money to the bank

Kaybaykwah

arccosh wrote: »

Mortgage approvals also depend on the survey valuation ....

If someone is selling at 400k but the house is valued at 350k by the surveyor, the bank will usually only give you the 350k....

Loaning at the 400k, 50k is dead money to the bank

In Canada, where I live, the surveyor doesn't appraise the property values, but, for Ireland, It is one more tool in your kit, I'm sure.

Extra user.

Manion wrote: »

Not sure how it's useless advice, you don't need to be an expert to take one look at an old-style fuse board and recommend replacement.

Trouble is the householder may take that advise at face value, theres a lot more to a board upgrade than simple replacement

In a lot of cases a board change can camouflage bigger issues

There's is nothing inherently wrong with fuses or older mcbs in themselves

Victor

arccosh wrote: »

Mortgage approvals also depend on the survey valuation ....

If someone is selling at 400k but the house is valued at 350k by the surveyor, the bank will usually only give you the 350k....

Loaning at the 400k, 50k is dead money to the bank

I understand that banks are using their own valuers an not relying on those by the purchasers surveyor, given that there is a conflict of interest.

Extra user. wrote: »

There's is nothing inherently wrong with fuses or older mcbs in themselves

Except that some people systematically bypass them.

brio09

Manion wrote: »

Regardless of qualifications, different surveyors will do different jobs. When we bought our house, we go a surveyor that specialised in new build properties, and he was primarily focused on structural issues. He spotted a few, but we could have also done with a surveyor specialising in snagging.

I don't think what you've outlined is really a case of the surveyor trying to cover his own ass since you have no recourse. Checking electrics and plumbing is categorically not in the job description. By including it in the report, he's making it explicitly clear these are things he has not done for you and advise you to get a look. Perhaps he suspects there is something you should look into regarding these items but is unwilling to put it in the report, given that it's not his area of expertise.

Friends of ours bought a house a few years ago that used to have an oil boiler but had been upgraded to Gas. I immediately asked them if the gun barrel pipes had been removed. Sure enough, they discovered that though the boiler had been replaced much of the central heating system piping had remained untouched. Too late then to go back to the vendor and argue down the price.

oh that was a tough experience! i see what you mean. surveyor could be saying i haven't checked it but cannot confirm it is bad - you should rather get it checked yourself.
do you have suggestion on what i could ask a plumber or an electrician?

brio09

Victor wrote: »

With any existing building, expect to spend money on the plumbing and electrics. Existing occupiers will almost always tolerate issues that new occupiers won't, e.g. that one light in the living room that doesn't work or the lack of power points in the kitchen.

Haggling over defects of any type may or may not get you somewhere.

makes sense, thanks! i do expect to call plumbers and electricians to do some changes that i want in the house + extra sockets etc. so ya there will definitely turn out to be things i want that aren't perfect right now.

I lived in South Africa for a few years, it was a requirement of the seller to provide a COC I think it was, certificate of compliance, it needed to meet the current electrical regs, I was selling a house and it cost me about 2% of the sale value to bring it to the current regs. It didn't matter that I had a coc from 2 years previous.

Mentioning this cos I do believe in that system, a seller should provide certified compliance upon selling a house. Its not fair this buyer beware attitude

Manion

Extra user. wrote: »

Trouble is the householder may take that advise at face value, theres a lot more to a board upgrade than simple replacement

In a lot of cases a board change can camouflage bigger issues

There's is nothing inherently wrong with fuses or older mcbs in themselves

I find this odd. Are you honestly saying that in the absence of giving a full assessment of electrical needs the surveyor should say nothing? Any electrician the buyer gets in for the board would assess the entire system.

Also, there is plenty wrong with older fuses. A buyer should make an informed decision. The surveyor did them a solid by drawing their attention to the issue.

Eire Go Brach

Just to be clear and sorry to hijack the thread.
My surveyor only a made observations on the plumbing, heating and electrics. I’m fully made aware that they are not experts in these areas. Think this is also more so to cover their own asses. Wood worm is a another thing he won’t stand over.

In my case. I’m getting an electrician out. So I know if a rewire is needed or not.

Full Quote.

“1.1. The electrical system is aging but was functioning at the time of inspection. You should get the electrical installation checked (including quotation for replacement) by a qualified electrician before change of ownership.
A "Safe Electric" registered electrical contractor should be appointed to carry out a "Periodic Inspection Report for an Electrical Installation" in accordance with ETCI 101, National Rules of Electrical Installations.”

arccosh

If anything to do with a fuse board replacement is recommended, you can almost guarantee the wiring isn't to current spec either... always work getting a sparks out at that point.

ted1

arccosh wrote: »

Mortgage approvals also depend on the survey valuation ....

If someone is selling at 400k but the house is valued at 350k by the surveyor, the bank will usually only give you the 350k....

Loaning at the 400k, 50k is dead money to the bank

A valuation is different than a survey.

An estate agent does the valuation, they don’t look at anything structural

ted1

arccosh wrote: »

If anything to do with a fuse board replacement is recommended, you can almost guarantee the wiring isn't to current spec either... always work getting a sparks out at that point.

Buildings don’t need to be to current spec. Only the spec at the time that they were built.

arccosh

ted1 wrote: »

Buildings don’t need to be to current spec. Only the spec at the time that they were built.

probably should have made the point clearer...

There may be old (and unsafe) or decerped connections/switches/sockets/cables if there hasn't been any major work since an old spec fuse board...

Most current work requires an overall check at the distribution unit, which would hopefully highlight most high level issues, but if nothing has been done, who knows when it was last checked... (guidance is at least every 10 years for a full inspection, yearly for tripping of switches etc...)