Why are trade unions declining?

Exceltrup

I know a few people in their 20s who are in typically union dominated industries, and it seems that youth membership is virtually non-existant. Why are unions declining?

AndrewJRenko

Exceltrup wrote: »

I know a few people in their 20s who are in typically union dominated industries, and it seems that youth membership is virtually non-existant. Why are unions declining?

Are they actually declining?

Dyr

Because their subs are overpriced and they're generally useless. Run by lads like Brendan Ogle who just treat them as slush funds for their political nonsense.

Because they're run by people and people are ****. :pac:

My dad can recall just about every job he had there'd be a mouthy fella who was all about the union, rights, giving out about absolutely everything. Once they became Steward or higher they'd fall in line and downplay everything, they had a position to protect all of a sudden.

On top of that the unions are obsessed with disruption and politics rather than workers rights. The low level of legal protections we actually have in this country is surprising to a lot of people when they find out. A lot of what people assume are rights are just custom and practice.

jimmycrackcorm

Our labour laws are very strong with plenty of worker protection. E.g. you can't be just fired off the cuff without due process.

So unions are only effective when they can hold the public ransom or get public support. Witness the Luas workers getting cushy money because of the stranglehold over the states tram assets, vs the same unions who had to eventually give up on bus Eireann because there were private alternatives.

AndrewJRenko

Here's some actual evidence, on the off-chance that anyone is interested in facts over anecdote:

From https://www.worker-participation.eu/National-Industrial-Relations/Countries/Ireland/Trade-Unions

Union density – the proportion of employees who are union members – has been as much affected by the changes in overall employment in Ireland as by changes in union membership itself. The figures from the Central Statistical Office show that during the employment boom in the late 1990s and the early 2000s the number of union members rose by about 100,000, but union density fell – from 46% in 1994 to 30% in 2007 – as unions found it difficult to break into many of the growing sectors of the economy.

In the economic crisis that began in 2008, union density initially went up – rising to 32% in 2010 – as union membership fell less rapidly than overall employment. However, from 2011 to 2016 both union membership and union density fell, with membership dropping from 498,000 to 416,000 while density fell more sharply from 32% in 2011 to 23% in 2016.

In the most recent period, union membership has again risen – to 461,000 in 2018, but density has increased only slightly to 24%, as overall employment has also grown.

The ICTU figures reflect this change as its membership in in the Republic of Ireland grew gradually to a peak of 612,676 in 2009 but has since fallen by 15.5% to 517,830 in 2019.[4]

SupaCat95

Bambi wrote: »

Because their subs are overpriced and they're generally useless. Run by lads like Brendan Ogle who just treat them as slush funds for their political nonsense.

In all fairness you are never going to see lads like Brendan Ogle or Jimmy Kelly in power again. To have a strike like Waterford Crystal in the 1980's (look them up they were legendary, they held the city ransom for nearly a year on both occasions), you must be able to do financial damage and have the reserves to hold out longer than management. Those times dont exist anymore. There is NO blue collar industry in Ireland anymore that would have to reserves to hold out that long. For what Siptu won in Waterford, there have been very few MNCs that dare invest in the same scale as Waterford Crystal in the 1980's.

It wasnt the Waterford Crystal executives that suffered or the workforce, it was the rest of the city when the main source of income dried up. Blue collar unions are dead and gone.

El_Duderino 09

I'm a union member and it's pretty good. They do all the pay negotiation and they handle lots of other issues. Lots of things don't become a big fight because the union just deals with them so it's easy to overlook their role.

I'm mates with one of the main reps and he's a man I would trust with it. He's very effective but has no interest in power or the other things people criticise union people for.

I also find it interesting that people give out that unions are bothe terrible and impotent. It's like the woody Allen joke about the restaurant that's terrible: the food is inedible, and such small portions.

Workers rights are in recession. Wages don't grow anymore, and union membership is declining. Its a bad combination.

Two reasons.

An absence of the right to be represented, as exists in many countries in the E.U., means that unions have limited authority in the (growing) private sector.

Secondly, in the public sector, unions have made a name for themselves as being disruptive, and actively harmful to service provision. Nobody likes to talk about how unions have hamstrung access to basic services like healthcare, but healthcare unions, in particular, constantly engage in what can only be described as an attack on the provision of public services. They have earned some public resentment. It's a pity.

There's more than the unions to blame, in fairness. The prevailing culture is one that uses the above to exaggerate any legitimate argument against unions.

I am a member of SIPTU and have always been a member of one union or other. Overall, I think unions do more good than harm, but I would not at all be surprised to learn that membership is falling.

Exceltrup

I don't think wages are stagnant, in fact before Covid19 Irelands wage growth was one of the highest in the EU. I think the difference is that now the most effective way to get a payrise is to move job, whereas in the past it was incremental with time served etc.

uptherebels

Exceltrup wrote: »

I know a few people in their 20s who are in typically union dominated industries, and it seems that youth membership is virtually non-existant. Why are unions declining?

well I've only worked in one business where there was union. It was basically used to look after the conditions and pay of the long term members. We "had" to join the union and pay the dues but when it came to any negotiations the lifers were looked after first, basically a two tier system. All in it together only when it suited them.

Rustyman101

SupaCat95 wrote: »

In all fairness you are never going to see lads like Brendan Ogle or Jimmy Kelly in power again. To have a strike like Waterford Crystal in the 1980's (look them up they were legendary, they held the city ransom for nearly a year on both occasions), you must be able to do financial damage and have the reserves to hold out longer than management. Those times dont exist anymore. There is NO blue collar industry in Ireland anymore that would have to reserves to hold out that long. For what Siptu won in Waterford, there have been very few MNCs that dare invest in the same scale as Waterford Crystal in the 1980's.

It wasnt the Waterford Crystal executives that suffered or the workforce, it was the rest of the city when the main source of income dried up. Blue collar unions are dead and gone.

14 weeks on strike, i know plenty of the workforce who suffered and for a long time after as well, there was a v militant group there at the time, if i told you the catalyst for that strike you would not believe it ! too their defence they did sort the pension debacle after the closure, no worker would have had the funds to bring the case to Europe, the union was very much on the back foot after 1990, they actually had very little hand in the closure in 09, multiple factors, product went out of vogue, poor acquisitions over the years, bad management, dilution of the brand, cosco and other poor marketing. millennium was a dead cat bounce, made a lot of money around 2000, so unions pros n cons, necessary evil ? who knows

PommieBast

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Secondly, in the public sector, unions have made a name for themselves as being disruptive, and actively harmful to service provision. Nobody likes to talk about how unions have hamstrung access to basic services like healthcare, but healthcare unions, in particular, constantly engage in what can only be described as an attack on the provision of public services. They have earned some public resentment. It's a pity.

The way that INIS has shut down completely and is in turn costing people their jobs pretty much sums up why the unions are so hated.



Incidentally there's a piece in the FT (firewalled) about unionisation of the gig economy, where the established unions have been shunned in favour of up-start ones.

Randle P. McMurphy

PommieBast wrote: »

The way that INIS has shut down completely and is in turn costing people their jobs pretty much sums up why the unions are so hated.

Did you link to the wrong article? There's nothing in this one about unions causing the backlog. It seems to be about the level 5 restrictions

"This is because the Passport Service has paused most of its operations in line with Level 5 restrictions currently in place in Ireland since late December"

"The Department of Foreign Affairs has said it will resume operations once the country returns to Level 4 restrictions and that any backlog will be cleared within “six to eight weeks”.

blanch152

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Two reasons.

An absence of the right to be represented, as exists in many countries in the E.U., means that unions have limited authority in the (growing) private sector.

Secondly, in the public sector, unions have made a name for themselves as being disruptive, and actively harmful to service provision. Nobody likes to talk about how unions have hamstrung access to basic services like healthcare, but healthcare unions, in particular, constantly engage in what can only be described as an attack on the provision of public services. They have earned some public resentment. It's a pity.

There's more than the unions to blame, in fairness. The prevailing culture is one that uses the above to exaggerate any legitimate argument against unions.

I am a member of SIPTU and have always been a member of one union or other. Overall, I think unions do more good than harm, but I would not at all be surprised to learn that membership is falling.

There is an additional factor that you have failed to consider - increasingly unions have been targetted by parties like Sinn Fein and PBP as ways of increasing political influence. Many people have been elected to union positions with a political agenda and not one attuned to workers wishes.

One of the few things that is keeping unions alive is their income continuance plans in the public sector.

PommieBast

Randle P. McMurphy wrote: »

Did you link to the wrong article? There's nothing in this one about unions causing the backlog. It seems to be about the level 5 restrictions

The only reason for them shutting down completely rather than operating at reduced capacity is the unions. There is no other explaination as to why I am still waiting for an Irish passport yet I got my British one renewed within 5 days.


Maybe I am just being reactionary

Mrs OBumble

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Or labor laws are very strong with plenty of worker protection. E.g. you can't be just fired off the cuff without due process.

Eh?

No paid sick leave. Probation. Redundabcy without compensation up to the first two years of service. Only 9 public holidays. Only 4 weeks holidays.

Not what I'd call strong.

PommieBast

blanch152 wrote: »

There is an additional factor that you have failed to consider - increasingly unions have been targetted by parties like Sinn Fein and PBP as ways of increasing political influence. Many people have been elected to union positions with a political agenda and not one attuned to workers wishes.

When I was at university (in the UK) I saw how the Students Union and the NUS was basically a training ground for the Labour Party. Real killer was how many former NUS presidents went on to become MPs and voted for tuition fees. Only difference between this and workplace unions I have seen is a bit more subtlety.

TheValeyard

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Eh?

No paid sick leave. Probation. Redundabcy without compensation up to the first two years of service. Only 9 public holidays. Only 4 weeks holidays.

Not what I'd call strong.

Yeah unions help keep employers in check whose only goal is to maximise their profit and minimise the expense. Without unions society would be back to the race to the bottom.

blanch152

blanch152 wrote: »

There is an additional factor that you have failed to consider - increasingly unions have been targetted by parties like Sinn Fein and PBP as ways of increasing political influence. Many people have been elected to union positions with a political agenda and not one attuned to workers wishes.

This sounds like a complaint that is local to you, tbf. Let's not swap anecdotes, because mine would be as unreliable as yours (with respect).

I'm not aware or any evidence of unions being infiltrated by SF or PBF, although admittedly, I'd be surprised to find a Blueshirt amongst us.

jimmycrackcorm

El_Duderino 09 wrote:

Workers rights are in recession. Wages don't grow anymore, and union membership is declining. Its a bad combination.

I've two siblings who made carer changes from low paying jobs to successful alternative careers after retraining later in life. Nobody is forced to stay in a low paying job. They choose to

Mrs OBumble wrote:

No paid sick leave. Probation. Redundabcy without compensation up to the first two years of service. Only 9 public holidays. Only 4 weeks holidays.

None of these have anything to do with unions. The only thing that unions do is protect bad practices. That's why you never see a bad teacher get fired.

MrMusician18

I know Union membership in the PS if falling, particularly among the young recent recruits. I couldn't blame them since it was the same unions that sold out their future members to protect the conditions of the current

rossie1977

In a society where huge corporations dominate and control vast amounts of the overall wealth then union membership and worker rights will erode over time. Just look at the US as an example.

coinop

Bambi wrote: »

...Run by lads like Brendan Ogle...

What an odious, despicable little c*nt. I could tell a few stories about Brendan but I don't want to get banned. His lack of friends in his personal life speaks volumes.

AndrewJRenko

PommieBast wrote: »

When I was at university (in the UK) I saw how the Students Union and the NUS was basically a training ground for the Labour Party. Real killer was how many former NUS presidents went on to become MPs and voted for tuition fees. Only difference between this and workplace unions I have seen is a bit more subtlety.

Must have been shocking all right to find that people involved in left wing politics in college continued to be involved in left wing politics after college.

AndrewJRenko

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I've two siblings who made carer changes from low paying jobs to successful alternative careers after retraining later in life. Nobody is forced to stay in a low paying job. They choose to

As long as we have minimum wage jobs, such as those staff who look after our toddlers and our elderly parents, we'll have minimum wage employees. No one chooses minimum wage as a preference. Many people have limited options and limited opportunities and limited confidence.

FTA69

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I've two siblings who made carer changes from low paying jobs to successful alternative careers after retraining later in life. Nobody is forced to stay in a low paying job. They choose to




None of these have anything to do with unions. The only thing that unions do is protect bad practices. That's why you never see a bad teacher get fired.

Rubbish from start to finish. I often hear this canard - “why don’t you just get a better job?”. Do you think everyone in our society can become a computer programme or a barrister? Who then will collect the bins, cook food, staff our supermarkets, care for our elderly, work in our industries? Basically what you’re suggesting here is that the people who do these jobs are somehow undeserving of a decent wage and living - ironic considering the low-paid jobs are often the most socially necessary. There is astronomical amounts of wealth in society today, more and more it is concentrated at the very top and more and more people are struggling to make ends meet. That’s wrong.

As for your second point; all of those things have everything to do with unions. How do you think they were achieved? Stuff like sick pay, the weekend, limits on the working day were won only via collective struggle by working people coming together to demand better. The likes of you back in the day would no doubt have been arguing against them and telling the plebs to be happy with their lot.

These sort of things are also being squeezed hugely by employers who can get away with taking the p*ss and it’s something that needs to be responded to again with collective action.

FTA69

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Must have been shocking all right to find that people involved in left wing politics in college continued to be involved in left wing politics after college.

I wouldn’t call them left wing; most of the NUS lot in Labour are borderline sociopaths and self-interested careerists who have no intention of challenging the political or economic status quo.

Richard Hillman

They could be a force for good but they get involved in such nonsense. They have also been replaced by NGOs in terms of having any political influence.

Workers are being treated like **** in the likes of Retail, Finance, hospitality and construction. Deliveroo drivers, they could do with a hand. Not LUAS drivers, Bus drivers (apart from safety from customers) and teachers. If bus drivers wanted to go on strike because of driver safety, they'd get support.

They just don't know how or when to pick their battles.

Don't get me started on the Teachers Unions recently, **** me read the room.

AndrewJRenko

Richard Hillman wrote: »

They could be a force for good but they get involved in such nonsense. They have also been replaced by NGOs in terms of having any political influence.

Workers are being treated like **** in the likes of Retail, Finance, hospitality and construction. Deliveroo drivers, they could do with a hand. Not LUAS drivers, Bus drivers (apart from safety from customers) and teachers. If bus drivers wanted to go on strike because of driver safety, they'd get support.

They just don't know how or when to pick their battles.

Don't get me started on the Teachers Unions recently, **** me read the room.

If only anyone in the union movement had spotted the issues for delivery riders before you, eh?

https://www.dublininquirer.com/2021/03/31/as-deliveroo-workers-push-for-better-work-conditions-there-s-debate-about-how-to-organise

AndrewJRenko

FTA69 wrote: »

I wouldn’t call them left wing; most of the NUS lot in Labour are borderline sociopaths and self-interested careerists who have no intention of challenging the political or economic status quo.

Amazing how people keep voting them into representative positions so. What's wrong with being careerist btw?