Cyclists, insurance and road tax

SeanW

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Motor tax = road tax

Yep.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_tax

Ireland's motor tax regime is a form of road tax. Eligibility for motor tax is based on usage of the road with a liable motor. Posters claiming that there is a tax on ownership are either ignorant of the law or are being dishonest. There is no tax on the ownership or off-road usage of motors. Liability only arises with motors being used on the road.

Wanderer78

Sono Topolino wrote:

Why is it such a taboo to request cyclists to get insurance and pay taxes for the roads that they use, just like car drivers do?

Wouldn't surprise me if most do pay car tax, and I'd imagine most of them eat, wear clothes, and few have probably robbed their bikes, so.....but insurance, that's probably not a bad idea, makes sense for higher risk cycling activities such as mountain biking

km991148

SeanW wrote: »

Nope.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_tax

Eligibility for motor tax is based on usage of the road with a liable motor. Posters claiming that there is a tax on ownership are either ignorant of the law or are being dishonest. There is no tax on the ownership or off-road usage of motors. Liability only arises with motors being used on the road.

I don't know why everyone is jumping through hoops to make this more complicated. It's simply a tax to use a vehicle in a public place. That's it.

Colloquially known as a road tax, of course, but when you start introducing phrases like 'usage of the road' it makes it sound like it's linked to road usage- which it clearly is not (if you don't move an inch all year, but leave parked up in a public place, then you pay) - and is 'dishonest or ignorant' to claim so (to use your words).

1hnr79jr65

As a car user i don't see how you can apply motor tax to bicycle users. Maybe for electric motor assisted bicycles

As for insurance, that i can totally get behind as cyclists have been known to cause incidents on roads and paths and as such should have similar accountability as motorists.

km991148

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Wouldn't surprise me if most do pay car tax, and I'd imagine most of them eat, wear clothes, and few have probably robbed their bikes, so.....but insurance, that's probably not a bad idea, makes sense for higher risk cycling activities such as mountain biking

A lot already do pay insurance - nearly everyone you see in a group would be insured.

I wish I had it when a taxi knocked me down tho, would have saved me from chasing him down to cover basic medical bills (which I gave up on in the end).

statto25

SeanW wrote: »

Yep.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_tax

Ireland's motor tax regime is a form of road tax. Eligibility for motor tax is based on usage of the road with a liable motor. Posters claiming that there is a tax on ownership are either ignorant of the law or are being dishonest. There is no tax on the ownership or off-road usage of motors. Liability only arises with motors being used on the road.

Then why can the motorist be fined if the car is parked in a public space and not in use on a road? Your argument is that its to allow the vehicle to be in use on our road infrastructure but the above would indicate otherwise

SeanW

statto25 wrote: »

Then why can the motorist be fined if the car is parked in a public space and not in use on a road? Your argument is that its to allow the vehicle to be in use on our road infrastructure but the above would indicate otherwise

If you park your car on the road, in for example an on-road parking space, it's still using the road. The motor tax office is fairly clear on the topic of off-road declarations - you can avoid liability for motor tax by declaring your car off the road. And they are crystal clear, the term is "off the road"

https://www.motarviews.ie/ORD/faq

km991148

SeanW wrote: »

If you park your car on the road, in for example an on-road parking space, it's still using the road. The motor tax office is fairly clear on the topic of off-road declarations - you can avoid liability for motor tax by declaring your car off the road. And they are crystal clear, the term is "off the road"

https://www.motarviews.ie/ORD/faq

Also if you dismantle the car in a breakers yard, you don't need to pay either.

Lots of definitions of what it isn't..

marvin80

I'd question why a person with such a low post count can start a bullsh*t thread like this that's been done over and over on boards.

Maybe they'll go for the boards bingo and start threads about travellers and foreigners.

Wanderer78

marvin80 wrote:

Maybe they'll go for the boards bingo and start threads about travellers and foreigners.

And the jackpot dole thread

John_Rambo

marvin80 wrote: »

I'd question why a person with such a low post count can start a bullsh*t thread like this that's been done over and over on boards.

It is interesting though. Over the years of these mouth breather threads there's a huge shift in support for cyclists from younger, more skilled, better trained motorists.

Much more modern thinking with an appreciation for road sharing and safety. Amazing how out of touch the die hard anti cyclist brigade are looking here.

SeanW

km991148 wrote: »

Also if you dismantle the car in a breakers yard, you don't need to pay either.

Correct. A car that has been dismantled (and recorded as such) will no longer be on the road. Ergo it's no longer liable for taxes based on road usage, like Ireland's Motor Tax.

Lots of definitions of what it isn't..

Not sure what you mean by this.

statto25

km991148 wrote: »

Also if you dismantle the car in a breakers yard, you don't need to pay either.

Lots of definitions of what it isn't..

If the car is in a breakers yard a cert of destruction is issued to declare the vehicle has been retired for scrap or crushing

Fighting Tao

SeanW wrote: »

If a cyclist cannot see a pothole in good enough time to slow down for it or avoid it as necessary, they shouldn't be on the road.



This. is. false. Full stop. You can own however many motors you like, they are only liable for tax if they are on a public road. Any other distinction, such as emissions, engine capacity on pre-'08 vehicles etc. are secondary. Your liability for motor tax is your usage of the roads with said motor. There is no other criteria. That's why some people call their motor tax, road tax. The claim that there is a tax on motor ownership is a falsehood. Pure and simple.

So you don’t choose to own a car? You don’t choose wether or not to use it in a public space??? It’s all choices, so please don’t misrepresent what I am saying.

km991148

SeanW wrote: »

Correct. A car that has been dismantled (and recorded as such) will no longer be on the road. Ergo it's no longer liable for taxes based on road usage, like Ireland's Motor Tax.

lol - you are determined to keep introducing your own language (and then pontificate on the ignorance and dishonesty of others..).

Motor tax is a tax that has to be paid in order to use a vehicle (mechanically propelled) in a public place. That's it. Not usage of roads, emissions or any other such nonsense.

When you keep introducing woolly terminology you are going to keep getting people arguing against you. Either we all then have to accept everyones woolly definitions (emissions etc) or just stick to the facts. The legal definition is quite clear here.

SeanW wrote: »

Not sure what you mean by this.

I mean as well as introducing your own language, you keep saying things that the tax is not.

SeanW

I'm never claimed that the term "road tax" has any standing in law. But Ireland's Motor Tax scheme is linked to a motor being on public roads. So clearly so that there is a procedure for declaring a car "off the road". That's why it's often called road tax, because it is a type of road tax.

km991148

SeanW wrote: »

I'm never claimed that the term "road tax" has any standing in law. But Ireland's Motor Tax scheme is linked to a motor being on public roads. So clearly so that there is a procedure for declaring a car "off the road". That's why it's often called road tax, because it is a type of road tax.

Its also "linked to emissions" but you reject others saying that.

Colloquially it is known as a road tax. But saying its based on usage (of roads) is as incorrect as saying its fully based on emissions. You need the tax paid to access public roads, but your usage of them is irrelevant.

I'm not really wanting to get into some pedantic debate on it - I just don't understand why others are arguing it (and somehow managed to get sucked into it myself..).

So if you keep saying "based on usage" you are going to keep getting people arguing over it (like has happened on every single thread I've seen on this). Same as when people keep saying its a tax on emissions you will keep arguing back with them (you are both wrong! - Although emissions does factor into the calculation in some form at least.)

Fine - its your time I guess, I'd just rather you didn't wave the "common sense" stick at me in the middle of such nonsense!

VonLuck

I've gotten lost in all of this discussion. Is the argument currently that bicycle users should pay motor tax? If so, for what exact purpose? Just to get a dig in, or are the proponents looking to increase funding for cycling infrastructure?

Pinch Flat

VonLuck wrote: »

I've gotten lost in all of this discussion. Is the argument currently that bicycle users should pay motor tax? If so, for what exact purpose? Just to get a dig in, or are the proponents looking to increase funding for cycling infrastructure?

The main jist is that we live in some motorists head rent free. never realized the humble bicycle could cause such emotion in some people.

magicbastarder

i would be happy to pay road tax, but i don't own any roads which could be taxed.
i do have a path in my garden, does that count? and a driveway.

km991148

If I had to pay more tax in this country (based on my bicycle usage!), I think it would push me to actually campaign for things like completely banning motorised traffic in our cities etc.

Its as petty as "wanting bike usage taxed" (however you phrase it) - but seems entirely fair - why should I have to pay more than the ridiculous amounts (especially in times when I do actually own a car, that gets used less) - to sit behind vehicular traffic and ride on roads that I can barely go faster than 20 on because they are in such poor state due to heavier traffic.

maestroamado

I am a cyclist and a motorist, i also have cycled a bit abroad where the average cyclist is more mature then in this country.
What i mean is they cycle single file except where organized events and designated areas, you will not see a train of cyclists taking control of the road like here, i live on a route where quite alot of cyclists use.

I do not think they should pay road tax, however i do think they should have insurance for their bikes + personal liability with the usual claim bonus etc, then if there is an incident the insurance companies can sort this out, whoever is at fault takes the hit, as things are now the car insurance company will have to pay if there is damage or injury...

magicbastarder

maestroamado wrote: »

What i mean is they cycle single file except where organized events and designated areas, you will not see a train of cyclists taking control of the road like here

a group of cyclists cycling in single file is more dangerous. the behaviour you describe would hardly be described as 'mature'.

i will regularly 'take control' of the road, as you put it, for my own safety. if this is preventing a motorist behind from doing something, yes, that actually is my goal. it's preventing them from performing dangerous overtakes.

Hurrache

It's hilarious to see some of the same eejits attracted to this thread after it's being on going so long. Two of them most active in the small hours trotting their same crap out.

A good looking cyclist, aren't they all, must have wiped their eye at some point and they've been bitter ever since.

Pinch Flat

Yup never felt guilty for defensive riding. Particularly taking the lane to turn right.

SeanW

Fighting Tao wrote: »

So you don’t choose to own a car? You don’t choose wether or not to use it in a public space??? It’s all choices, so please don’t misrepresent what I am saying.

Whether or not to own a car, and whether or not to put a car on the road are entirely separate decisions. You're only taxed on the latter, not the former.

km991148 wrote: »

Its also "linked to emissions" but you reject others saying that.

Mainly because it only applies to vehicles registered after July 2008 and even then, is still predicated on the same main criteria - being on or off the road.

Colloquially it is known as a road tax. But saying its based on usage (of roads) is as incorrect as saying its fully based on emissions. You need the tax paid to access public roads, but your usage of them is irrelevant.

I'm not sure what the difference is between usage and access in this context. It's really simple. If your motor is on the road, it's liable for motor tax. If it's off the road, (and declared to be so, or is a type of motor that was never on the road in the first place, e.g. a stationary generator or any other type of off-road motor) it's not liable for motor tax.

I'm not really wanting to get into some pedantic debate on it - I just don't understand why others are arguing it (and somehow managed to get sucked into it myself..).

I think the reason is that the cycling brigade have declared a jihad (metaphorically speaking) on the term "road tax" because ... reasons ...

Thelonious Monk

Sean why the f*ck do you care so much about people using bikes? It's just weird. And bikes aren't going anywhere and will never have to pay tax or insurance, just deal with it.

Fighting Tao

SeanW wrote: »

Whether or not to own a car, and whether or not to put a car on the road are entirely separate decisions. You're only taxed on the latter, not the former.

Are you forced to take it into a public space? Someone holding a gun to your head. See, it is a choice to own, and a choice to use it in such a way that incurs motor tax. Please report whoever is threatening your life to the gardaí, because you should feel safe and know it’s ok not to own a car, and not to use it in public spaces.

Fighting Tao

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Sean why the f*ck do you care so much about people using bikes? It's just weird. And bikes aren't going anywhere and will never have to pay tax or insurance, just deal with it.

Probably because those big bad people who cycle slow him down for all of 5 seconds in the race to get to the next set of red traffic lights.

FileNotFound

46 Pages of ranting.

All to complain about a few people who do some physical exercise and keep emissions down.

Bikes are going to become more and more popular with less room for cars on the roads in cities at least.

Bikes and buses - the future....

They won't tax or insure bikes as they want people to use them and get out of cars... It reduces your chances of being a fat slob and helps the environment. Win win