Cyclists, insurance and road tax

namloc1980

There's extensive pedestrian infrastructure all over the country. There should be a pedestrian tax to pay for this.

Thelonious Monk

namloc1980 wrote: »

There's extensive pedestrian infrastructure all over the country. There should be a pedestrian tax to pay for this.

In fairness in most of the country the ped infra is awful, and most of it is covered in illegally parked cars too.

namloc1980

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

In fairness in most of the country the ped infra is awful, and most of it is covered in illegally parked cars too.

Doesn't matter. There's thousands of kilometres of footpaths all around the country and those dastardly pedestrians pay nothing to use them. Disgrace so it is.

liamog

Pinch Flat wrote: »

And a huge amount of car journeys are less thank 5km. Distance that can easily be walked or cycled. More Facts and logic I guess.

It seems the question that is rarely asked, why don't people walk or cycle that 5km. The walk is easy to answer, I don't fancy a 50 minute journey to my destination. Why don't I cycle? I have zero faith in the security of my bike in public spaces. I'll cycle to work where we have secure underground parking, but beyond that or recreational use I just won't bother. I've had a bike stolen and one heavily vandalised. I prefer to keep my third bike for my own use.

FileNotFound

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

In fairness in most of the country the ped infra is awful, and most of it is covered in illegally parked cars too.

Like the sorry excuse for a cycling infrastructure?

Hurrache

namloc1980 wrote: »

Doesn't matter. There's thousands of kilometres of footpaths all around the country and those dastardly pedestrians pay nothing to use them. Disgrace so it is.

It's cars that I see that get the most use out of them.

namloc1980

Hurrache wrote: »

It's cars that I see that get the most use out of them.

Well then motorists should have to pay a footpath tax for their selfish use of them as dumping grounds for their 2 tonne metal boxes.

oisinog

I have yet to see a rational argument to why Cyclists should be taxed and insured.

So to the people arguing for how would you solve it, how much would it cost and how would you police it?

Logistically it would be impossible to do for less income than it would generate.

Really the crux of the problem is that you would prefer not to see cyclists on the road.

Here is the catch 22 situation if you took me off my bike and put me into a car your journey would take longer due to the increase in traffic. Insurance would increase as there would be more accidents and tax would probably have to increase to make more roads.

FileNotFound

oisinog wrote: »

I have yet to see a rational argument to why Cyclists should be taxed and insured.

So to the people arguing for how would you solve it, how much would it cost and how would you police it?

Logistically it would be impossible to do for less income than it would generate.

Really the crux of the problem is that you would prefer not to see cyclists on the road.

Here is the catch 22 situation if you took me off my bike and put me into a car your journey would take longer due to the increase in traffic. Insurance would increase as there would be more accidents and tax would probably have to increase to make more roads.

Logic is lost on the angry motorists in the thread here.

liamog

oisinog wrote: »

Logistically it would be impossible to do for less income than it would generate.

I don't see how it would be that costly to create a website where you go online and register. We manage it to tax dog ownership which carries a €20/year fee.
https://www.licences.ie/ILAS/Home/Licences?bundleId=17

namloc1980

oisinog wrote: »

I have yet to see a rational argument to why Cyclists should be taxed and insured.

So to the people arguing for how would you solve it, how much would it cost and how would you police it?

Logistically it would be impossible to do for less income than it would generate.

Really the crux of the problem is that you would prefer not to see cyclists on the road.

Here is the catch 22 situation if you took me off my bike and put me into a car your journey would take longer due to the increase in traffic. Insurance would increase as there would be more accidents and tax would probably have to increase to make more roads.

It's just a bunch of angry motorists who would rather no cyclists, or pedestrians for that matter, would interfere with their use of the road. There's no logic here, only anger.

oisinog

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

liamog wrote: »

I don't see how it would be that costly to create a website where you go online and register. We manage it to tax dog ownership which carries a €20/year fee.
https://www.licences.ie/ILAS/Home/Licences?bundleId=17

That addresses a small part how is this policed and by who, that is where the additional costs will be occured.

Can you show me evidence that this is making money?

cgcsb

Is this a windup thread. Surely nobody is really as simple minded as this?

Hurrache

liamog wrote: »

I don't see how it would be that costly to create a website where you go online and register. We manage it to tax dog ownership which carries a €20/year fee.
https://www.licences.ie/ILAS/Home/Licences?bundleId=17

What's the amount of licences issues, about 200,000 country wide? It's a clear sign that is most certainly doesn't work.

AndrewJRenko

liamog wrote: »

I don't see how it would be that costly to create a website where you go online and register. We manage it to tax dog ownership which carries a €20/year fee.
https://www.licences.ie/ILAS/Home/Licences?bundleId=17

The website is only part of the cost. The customer service behind the website is the expensive bit.

And not everyone can use websites.

Fighting Tao

liamog wrote: »

I don't see how it would be that costly to create a website where you go online and register. We manage it to tax dog ownership which carries a €20/year fee.
https://www.licences.ie/ILAS/Home/Licences?bundleId=17

I have two toddlers. Only one balance bike at the moment (on the lookout for a frog bike for the bigger), a little tyke car and a tractor. Do I need to pay tax for them? They only use the lane I live on. Technically o own out to the middle of the lane which is asphalt latex down by the council, and services are provided on the lane too. How much tax should they be paying? Does it depend on the bike size? How do I teach a 1 and 3 year old to use the internet to pay their tax? What bank will give them a debit card to do it with?

Should they actually be paying when I own half the lane outside my house? My neighbours own their sections too.

liamog

oisinog wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

That addresses a small part how is this policed and by who, that is where the additional costs will be occured.

Can you show me evidence that this is making money?

Unfortunately I don't work for local government or anpost, so would not have access to that information. I can only presume that if it's workable for dog licensing, then the economics of running a similar system for bikes is not a million miles from the same.
Generally you'd build in the running costs to any level of fee.

There are plenty of reasons not to tax bike ownership, but the admin cost of running a registration system is not one of them.

namloc1980

liamog wrote: »

I don't see how it would be that costly to create a website where you go online and register. We manage it to tax dog ownership which carries a €20/year fee.
https://www.licences.ie/ILAS/Home/Licences?bundleId=17

It's more around the policing of it, managing the registration process, how long is the registration valid for, paperwork to follow up, how old do you have to be to have one etc

Padre_Pio

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The website is only part of the cost. The customer service behind the website is the expensive bit.

And not everyone can use websites.

And then there's the enforcement. Who checks dog licenses?

liamog

Fighting Tao wrote: »

I have two toddlers. Only one balance bike at the moment (on the lookout for a frog bike for the bigger), a little tyke car and a tractor. Do I need to pay tax for them? They only use the lane I live on. Technically o own out to the middle of the lane which is asphalt latex down by the council, and services are provided on the lane too. How much tax should they be paying? How do I teach a 1 and 3 year old to use the internet to pay their tax? What bank will give them a debit card to do it with?

I'm not suggesting you should be paying a tax to own a bike(s). Merely pointing out that the argument that collecting the tax would cost more than it brings in is not valid based on the existing evidence of another low value tax already being collected in Ireland.

namloc1980

liamog wrote: »

I'm not suggesting you should be paying a tax to own a bike(s). Merely pointing out that the argument that collecting the tax would cost more than it brings in is not valid based on the existing evidence of another low value tax already being collected in Ireland.

How much does dog licensing generate over and above the costs? How are dog wardens paid? Would we need "bicycle wardens"? It's estimated only 20% of dog owners actually buy a licence. https://www.petethevet.com/dog-licences-pete-the-vet-on-newstalks-pat-kenny-show/ Pretty useless with little or no enforcement.

liamog

namloc1980 wrote: »

It's more around the policing of it, managing the registration process, how long is the registration valid for, paperwork to follow up, how old do you have to be to have one etc

Why is suddenly impossible to do this for ownership of a metal object with a frame number, versus an animal with a microchip?

What is fundamentally different?

Fighting Tao

liamog wrote: »

I'm not suggesting you should be paying a tax to own a bike(s). Merely pointing out that the argument that collecting the tax would cost more than it brings in is not valid based on the existing evidence of another low value tax already being collected in Ireland.

I’m just trying to figure out how it would work. There are a lot of variables to be taken into account. Working through them highlights that it is a pointless and costly exercise to apply a version of motor tax to bikes.

namloc1980

liamog wrote: »

Why is suddenly impossible to do this for ownership of a metal object with a frame number, versus an animal with a microchip?

What is fundamentally different?

I just told you. Only 20% of dogs are attached to a license. There is very little compliance and no enforcement. How do you sort that out for bikes??

oisinog

From what I have seen any country who did have regs on bikes in the past stopped it because it was not viable from a financial point of view.

So it is a good part of the decision making

liamog

namloc1980 wrote: »

I just told you. Only 20% of dogs are attached to a license. There is very little compliance and no enforcement. How do you sort that out for bikes??

Exactly the same, it's of such little consequence that is doesn't make a difference to running the system.

namloc1980

liamog wrote: »

Exactly the same, it's of such little consequence that is doesn't make a difference to running the system.

So you set up a system and a tiny number of people comply and you just leave it at that. That's ludicrous.

seamus

liamog wrote: »

Exactly the same, it's of such little consequence that is doesn't make a difference to running the system.

So why bother?

liamog

namloc1980 wrote: »

So you set up a system and a tiny number of people comply and you just leave it at that. That's ludicrous.

I've said it a few times, but you seem to have missed the point.

I am not arguing for the taxation of bicycles. I am pointing out that the argument "system expensive" is invalid based on the existence of another system operating currently in Ireland.

There are many reasons not to tax bike ownership, cost of registration system is not one of them.

liamog

seamus wrote: »

So why bother?

I'm not suggesting we should