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Cyclists, insurance and road tax

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,689 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    You collect it the same way you collect VAT.

    Carbon-added tax will be a mess to roll-out, but we need it to fight climate change and incentivise the elimination of greenhouse gasses. This is why I'm insisting on cyclists paying their fair share (which is small) of tax, because in order for people to accept carbon-added tax it has to be fair and transparent.

    VAT is collected at point of purchase.

    And there is VAT on bicycles.

    By all means lob on another €15 for a carbon tax, if that will stop people saying "and they dont even pay taxes Joe".


  • Registered Users Posts: 477 ✭✭Sono Topolino


    Tombo2001 wrote: »
    Hang on - you started out believing motorists paid road tax and cyclists didnt.

    You started out believing cyclists dont pay insurance when its been said over and over that all cycling club members pay insurance.

    And yet rather than just acknowleding your errors, you just look for other ways to attack cyclists.

    Now its the "cyclists dont obey the rules of the road" line of attack.

    Where are you on the statistic that only 2% of drivers in Dublin city centre obey the speed limit?

    Where are you on studies that show motorists break the law more frequently and in a far wider range of ways than cyclists....

    Yes, you dont like cyclists. End of.

    If you cant attack them one way, then you attack them the other way.

    1. Motor tax is road-user tax paid only by car-drivers. I want this scrapped and replaced with a single carbon tax which applies to everything.

    2. How many cyclists are members of cycling clubs? And why are they the only ones with insurance?

    3. Cyclists break lights all the time with impunity. Please stop pretending that this does not happen.

    4. Motorists who break speed limits should of course be punished. More speeding cameras is something I support. I'd also like cameras to police red-light breaking.

    I admit I really get annoyed at gangs of Lycra libertarians clogging up the road on Saturdays and not allowing cars to pass, but as you see I can work past my prejudices.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,893 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    The only settlement cyclists wll accept is complete unconditional surrender to their demands.
    What exactly are the demands of cyclists?
    From what I've read here, it seems to be yourself and some others who are against cycling making demands about "road tax", insurance and other nonsense on people who cycle for no other purpose other than the immature view that cyclists annoy you. :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 975 ✭✭✭harmless


    2. How many cyclists are members of cycling clubs? And why are they the only ones with insurance?
    The club requires you to have insurance. It is only for training and racing.


    No company offers insurance for commuting by bike.


  • Registered Users Posts: 477 ✭✭Sono Topolino


    Tombo2001 wrote: »
    VAT is collected at point of purchase.

    And there is VAT on bicycles.

    By all means lob on another €15 for a carbon tax, if that will stop people saying "and they dont even pay taxes Joe".

    It's the best way to roll-out a carbon tax.

    People want carbon taxes on cars that are based on estimated emissions per kilometre. It's far from being an exact science, so I'd say slap a tax on fuel and electricity instead. Electric cars will pay less carbon tax on electricity than petrol cars would pay on petrol, assuming the electricity is (mostly) generated from renewables.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,657 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I admit I really get annoyed at gangs of Lycra libertarians clogging up the road on Saturdays and not allowing cars to pass, but as you see I can work past my prejudices.
    you've a sense of humour at least.

    anyway, sod this 'cyclists should pay pro rata for the carbon they produce'.
    that makes sense if we were talking about something which was neutral in terms of which mode of transport is preferred. if you are levying a carbon tax, it would appear that your goal is to reduce carbon.
    if your goal is reducing carbon, you do it by making cycling attractive. levying an unnecessary tax (which raises shag all money) is not how you do this.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,893 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    1. Motor tax is road-user tax paid only by car-drivers. I want this scrapped and replaced with a single carbon tax which applies to everything.
    What is the benefit to this form of taxation and will it be as economic to operate as the current method?
    2. How many cyclists are members of cycling clubs? And why are they the only ones with insurance?
    To answer your first question, I'll take a guess and say 42!
    Insurance is not mandatory for cyclists which may answer your second question.
    3. Cyclists break lights all the time with impunity. Please stop pretending that this does not happen.
    Who said it doesn't happen?
    4. Motorists who break speed limits should of course be punished. More speeding cameras is something I support. I'd also like cameras to police red-light breaking.
    Yaay - finally a bit of sense from you!
    I admit I really get annoyed at gangs of Lycra libertarians clogging up the road on Saturdays and not allowing cars to pass,
    Why are you out blocking the roads on a Saturday :rolleyes:
    Also, if you can't overtake a group of cyclists then it is obviously unsafe to overtake anything at that point. So why selectively condemn cyclists?
    but as you see I can work past my prejudices.
    Indeed :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,222 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    It's the best way to roll-out a carbon tax.

    People want carbon taxes on cars that are based on estimated emissions per kilometre. It's far from being an exact science, so I'd say slap a tax on fuel and electricity instead. Electric cars will pay less carbon tax on electricity than petrol cars would pay on petrol, assuming the electricity is (mostly) generated from renewables.

    Well, there will be both. A carbon tax based on manufacturing the car, then a second carbon tax based on fuel use.

    So just basic maths:
    Estimate 530 pounds of CO2 to make a bicycle.
    Estimate 17 metric tonnes (37478) pounds to make a ford Mondeo.

    If we add this carbon tax of 15 euro onto a bicycle for its manufacturing emissions, then an average saloon Mondeo will get 1060 more expensive.
    Everyone happy?

    Links:
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/2010/sep/23/carbon-footprint-new-car
    https://slate.com/technology/2011/08/how-soon-does-a-bike-pay-back-its-initial-carbon-footprint.html


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,657 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    we need to start taxing golf. golf clubs are not carbon-neutral to manufacture, and no matter how one travels around a golf course it creates extra CO2; if you've an electric cart, or if you've to pull the bag behind you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    that's the full marginal rate. anyone who pays tax will benefit, but the people who save the most are those paying tax at the higher rate.

    Plus the bike you will buy is likely to be cheaper, further reducing the saving - assuming you have the cash to buy a new bike in the first place.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 29,117 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    You're not even listening to me. I just proposed:

    1. A carbon tax which drivers will pay the lion's share of
    2. A rebate for people who scrap their cars and do not replace them with cars
    3 Investing massively in cycling infrastructure.

    But apparently I hate cyclists and love motorists. My only "sin" is that I think cyclists should get insurance, obey the rules of the road and should pay their fair share of carbon taxes (which is minuscule compared with big polluting cars, but whatever).

    The only settlement cyclists wll accept is complete unconditional surrender to their demands.

    You give the game away with the "want cyclists to obey the rules of the road" nonsense.

    If you had any actual interest in safety on the roads, you'd be posting about the 98% of drivers that break urban speed limits, or the majority of drivers that use their phones while driving - the behaviours that lead to 2 or 3 people being killed on the road each week.

    But there seems to be some irrisistible urge deep inside you to be telling cyclists what to do, while you ignore the actual source of danger on the roads.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,689 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    1. Motor tax is road-user tax paid only by car-drivers. I want this scrapped and replaced with a single carbon tax which applies to everything.

    2. How many cyclists are members of cycling clubs? And why are they the only ones with insurance?

    3. Cyclists break lights all the time with impunity. Please stop pretending that this does not happen.

    4. Motorists who break speed limits should of course be punished. More speeding cameras is something I support. I'd also like cameras to police red-light breaking.

    I admit I really get annoyed at gangs of Lycra libertarians clogging up the road on Saturdays and not allowing cars to pass, but as you see I can work past my prejudices.

    Strawman argument. I never 'pretended' this doesnt happen.

    What I said was - that motorist break the law more often, and in a far wider range of ways, than cyclists.

    And yet the likes of yourself has the gall to tell cyclists that they break the law "with impunity".

    On the other point - I feel the same way about cars and especially parking spaces clogging up city roads where 90% of the traffic is pedestrian, and the footpath is just four foot wide.

    I was on Capel Street earlier today - really had to ask myself, how is this allowed to happen.

    I can only put it down to motorists wanting unconditional surrender to their demands.


  • Registered Users Posts: 29,117 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    It's the best way to roll-out a carbon tax.

    People want carbon taxes on cars that are based on estimated emissions per kilometre. It's far from being an exact science, so I'd say slap a tax on fuel and electricity instead. Electric cars will pay less carbon tax on electricity than petrol cars would pay on petrol, assuming the electricity is (mostly) generated from renewables.

    So you want to let motorists off the hook for the wear and tear they cause and the associated maintenance costs?


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,998 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Looks like the wet dream of some people here

    https://twitter.com/deep_dab/status/1384019471363309568


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 12,314 Mod ✭✭✭✭iamstop


    I'd say the amount of tax you'd get from all the cyclists in Ireland would be 0.1 of 1% of the tax you'd collect from the international corporations that have their HQ here if they were taxed fairly.

    They have you where they want you. Fighting each other over the table scraps.


  • Registered Users Posts: 477 ✭✭Sono Topolino


    iamstop wrote: »
    I'd say the amount of tax you'd get from all the cyclists in Ireland would be 0.1 of 1% of the tax you'd collect from the international corporations that have their HQ here if they were taxed fairly.

    They have you where they want you. Fighting each other over the table scraps.

    We're looking to reduce emissions with a carbon-added tax, not raise revenue. Any revenue raised should go towards schemes which reduce emissions.

    This thread demonstrates the power of ideology.


  • Registered Users Posts: 477 ✭✭Sono Topolino


    So you want to let motorists off the hook for the wear and tear they cause and the associated maintenance costs?

    You have a point. I would add a percentage to the carbon-added tax levied on petrol to account for wear and tear on roads and infrastructure.

    That way you don't pay unless you drive your car and burn fuel.

    I am not sure how you would do that for electric cars - this has me stumped.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    iamstop wrote: »
    I'd say the amount of tax you'd get from all the cyclists in Ireland would be 0.1 of 1% of the tax you'd collect from the international corporations that have their HQ here if they were taxed fairly.

    They have you where they want you. Fighting each other over the table scraps.

    That's the point. Taxes are not fair taxes the easiest way to collect money for government spending. Fairness would mean corporations would pay the taxes they are supposed to pay. That being said cycling tax or similar nonsense is just ridiculous. It would cost more to collect than it would bring in income. It would have absolutely no positive impact however if some here want more tax they can petition government to slap a few extra percent on top of another tax.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    We're looking to reduce emissions with a carbon-added tax, not raise revenue. Any revenue raised should go towards schemes which reduce emissions.

    Yes it will pay wages of those who will be running the schemes to reduce emissions. We can create another state quango and pay executives well so they can buy big nice cars with money collected for schemes to reduce emissions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 245 ✭✭oisinog


    We're looking to reduce emissions with a carbon-added tax, not raise revenue. Any revenue raised should go towards schemes which reduce emissions.

    This thread demonstrates the power of ideology.

    The difficulty here is you have erroded any credability that you had from flip flopping from one tax to another.

    By all means I can get on board with a carbon tax but again what sort of impact is that going to have on house prices, air travel, haulage a price on a cup of coffee.

    This wont necessarly drive consumers to reduce their carbon footprint there is more chance this will have a negative impact on the ecomony.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,711 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Standing up for the cyclist underdog against the evil car driver, while making fun of people on welfare is just the kind of attitude I expect from Lycra fascists.

    I'm primarily a motorist chief, three cars in the drive now!! Haven't been on the bike in ages with the commute gone. Don't do lycra I'm afraid, put the tissue away, you get far too excited around the cyclists!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 29,117 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    You have a point. I would add a percentage to the carbon-added tax levied on petrol to account for wear and tear on roads and infrastructure.

    That way you don't pay unless you drive your car and burn fuel.

    I am not sure how you would do that for electric cars - this has me stumped.

    Wear and tear isn't proportional to fuel consumption, so drivers of smaller, lighter vehicles would be subsidising SUVs and jeeps under this model.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,305 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    1. Motor tax is road-user tax paid only by car-drivers. I want this scrapped and replaced with a single carbon tax which applies to everything.

    2. How many cyclists are members of cycling clubs? And why are they the only ones with insurance?

    3. Cyclists break lights all the time with impunity. Please stop pretending that this does not happen.

    4. Motorists who break speed limits should of course be punished. More speeding cameras is something I support. I'd also like cameras to police red-light breaking.

    I admit I really get annoyed at gangs of Lycra libertarians clogging up the road on Saturdays and not allowing cars to pass, but as you see I can work past my prejudices.

    How petty and sad do you have to be to resort to this level of silliness. Embarrassing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,065 ✭✭✭funnydoggy


    Surprised this thread is still going.

    OP you have stretched out your redundant argument for 80 pages. Nice.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,305 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Lycra fascist is a misnomer, I admit. It's more "Lycra libertarian"
    I really find it hilarious how car drivers who want cyclists to pay their fair share get labelled all sorts of hiliarious things, from libertarian to fascist, and yet the real libertarians here are the cyclists who:

    1. Have professional comfortable jobs
    2. Live within 20-30 minutes bike ride from their job
    3. Want to use the road for free
    4. Expect no interference from the state.

    And they laugh at motorists who want the exact same things for themselves.

    Pedestrians use footpaths for free. Do you think these freeloaders should pay a footpath tax?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,065 ✭✭✭funnydoggy


    Want to use the road for free


    I'll check my payslips but I do seem to remember paying income tax..


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,855 ✭✭✭statto25


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    How petty and sad do you have to be to resort to this level of silliness. Embarrassing.


    Lycra Libertarians would be a great name for a club!


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,305 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    OP still going strong in fairness but it all just comes across as a very angry but petty and entitled motorist who would rather everyone else just get out of his way. It's pretty sad, and quite frightening, that there are people out there driving around in 2 ton metal boxes with these types of attitudes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 477 ✭✭Sono Topolino


    Wear and tear isn't proportional to fuel consumption, so drivers of smaller, lighter vehicles would be subsidising SUVs and jeeps under this model.

    Smaller, lighter vehicles use more fuel, no?

    I admit I have not thought this part through but there are two options:

    1. Add a surcharge at the point of purchase based on weight- but this way people who use a car for local journeys only (including elderly and disabled people) get charged the same as someone who uses their car for longer journeys.

    2. Adding a surcharge to fuel at the pump. But this way drivers of heavy but fuel efficient vehicles get punished.

    I don't see a third option.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,622 ✭✭✭token56


    Give me cycling friendly infrastructure like they have in the Netherlands, Denmark and other parts of Central Europe and I will happily pay the extra tax for it.


This discussion has been closed.
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