Cyclists, insurance and road tax

Pinch Flat

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Tomorrow has all the makings to be the worst day of traffic everywhere this year so far with the predicted beautiful weather, or possibly of any Saturday given the restrictions.
Going to take a cycle out to Howth and along the coast, should be interesting, you'd be nuts to drive anywhere tomorrow.

I made the mistake of driving last weekend. We were heading to portmarnock for a swim. As you do. Never again. I'd imagine tomorrow nd Sunday will be like the zombie apocalypse on the roads.

07Lapierre

John_Rambo wrote: »

Right, fair enough, when I was commuting it was the older men and women.

I'm Dublin based, I find driver characteristics dramatically change in different areas around the country. Wife's brother lives West and finds the younger ones a bit more intolerant. He recons it's parental home driver schooling. Monkey see monkey do.

I think the older drivers (like me..I'm 52) grew up using relatively safe roads. Most kids cycled to school. Even when I was in college, the bike sheds were always crammed with bikes.

People who cycled when they were younger, make better drivers. But the younger generation were driven to the crèche,driven to school,driven or drove their own cars to college.

Maybe now that a lot more people are cycling, it will soon be seen as a legitimate form of transport, but I don't see that happening for a long time yet.

John_Rambo

07Lapierre wrote: »

I think the older drivers (like me..I'm 52) grew up using relatively safe roads. Most kids cycled to school. Even when I was in college, the bike sheds were always crammed with bikes.

People who cycled when they were younger, make better drivers. But the younger generation were driven to the crèche,driven to school,driven or drove their own cars to college.

Maybe now that a lot more people are cycling, it will soon be seen as a legitimate form of transport, but I don't see that happening for a long time yet.

Back in the eighties cyclists were relageted to the gutter. It was single file and the motorist was king, cyclists were kids or less well off people.

Now bikes are hard pumped, faster and not designed to travel over the flotsam and jetsam that drivers expect them to travel over. Most of them are more expensive than my vintage little car.

The modern riders are also motorists, they're fit, reactive, confident and schooled (usually better) than your average motorists and mindful of the ROFTR. You're 100% correct about cyclists being better motorists, that's been proven over and over again.

magicbastarder

liamog wrote: »

Don't be daft, it should be airbags that turn the whole bike into a Zorb ball.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47cq3sjlUug

magicbastarder

John_Rambo wrote: »

You're 100% correct about cyclists being better motorists, that's been proven over and over again.

it's often claimed that cyclists make better motorists, and motorists make better cyclists. which is hardly controversial, being able to understand the actions of others is rarely a bad thing.

km991148

John_Rambo wrote: »

I'm a motorist and I carry heavy, expensive (stealable) equipment. But pedestrians, cyclists and public transport comes first. I'll happily tail cyclists for as long as it takes to safely overtake them and it's never really more than a couple of hundred metres.

I don't care if they're two abreast or not.
I don't get triggered in to a rage by what they're wearing.
I don't loose my mind if they're not wearing helmets.
I don't care if they break lights.
I don't know if they have bells, so that doesn't bother me.
I don't mind if they filter up beside me on either side, I'm a good driver and have mirrors.
Even if they're teenagers pulling wheelies I'll stay behind them and won't overtake as they're unpredictable (as all teenagers are)

I'm ok with joggers on the road too. They're social distancing, I give them space.

Often, when I do overtake cyclists they end up in front of me at traffic lights anyway. It's just a change of mindset that motorists have to get their heads around.

It will improve, the younger cohort of motorists with proper skills do it, it's the guys my age 40+ that have some weird sense of entitlement like their riding a carriage powered by eight barely tamed, dangerous mustangs (the horse, not the car) and everyone that's not in a car needs to clear the way for their super important journey because in their minds the road is built for cars only.

I keep posting it, but if everyone used the road like this guy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RidKpZEJj4E

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RidKpZEJj4E

Then we'd be in a better place. Learn, evolve, practice good anticipation and negotiation, and realise that when someone 'wrongs' you it's probably not out of spite, but more than likely because they made a mistake, just like you so sometimes too.

A wave or show of appreciation when people get it right goes a long way.

All if this is regardless of mode of transportation I use.

maestroamado

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/routes/overseas/can-cyclist-legally-not-europe-411273#:~:text=It%20is%20legal%20for%20cyclists%20to%20ride%20t

This is ho Europe do it.
I only had a quick look but it looks abit different to here....

harmless

maestroamado wrote: »

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/routes/overseas/can-cyclist-legally-not-europe-411273#:~:text=It%20is%20legal%20for%20cyclists%20to%20ride%20t

This is ho Europe do it.
I only had a quick look but it looks abit different to here....

Some real contrast here,

UK has laws that make it more dangerous

Riding two abreast

The Highway Code states that it is legal for cyclists to ride side-by-side, though Rule 66 does add that cyclists should ride in single file “on narrow or busy roads and when riding round bends.”


France has laws that make it safer
Riding two abreast

When riding in a group, you should be two abreast or single file.
At night, if a vehicle wishes to overtake, or when “circumstances make it necessary,” riders should move to become single file.
If there’s more than 10 of you, you should split into two groups.


Breaking in to groups when more than 10 should be recommended here.
My club always does this.

Johnny Jukebox

John_Rambo wrote: »

The modern riders are also motorists, they're fit, reactive, confident and schooled (usually better) than your average motorists and mindful of the ROFTR. You're 100% correct about cyclists being better motorists, that's been proven over and over again.

We're also tech savvy and know all about video :-)

mr potato head

harmless wrote: »

France has laws that make it safer

And they also have the added presumed liability laws for vulnerable road users - Only Malta, Cyprus, Romania and Ireland left without them in the EU.

maestroamado

John_Rambo wrote: »

Back in the eighties cyclists were relageted to the gutter. It was single file and the motorist was king, cyclists were kids or less well off people.

Now bikes are hard pumped, faster and not designed to travel over the flotsam and jetsam that drivers expect them to travel over. Most of them are more expensive than my vintage little car.

The modern riders are also motorists, they're fit, reactive, confident and schooled (usually better) than your average motorists and mindful of the ROFTR. You're 100% correct about cyclists being better motorists, that's been proven over and over again.

Please enlighten us all on what has being proved over and over again.
I am not disputing what you are saying as you are saying you have proof of something.
What is it....

maestroamado

mr potato head wrote: »

And they also have the added presumed liability laws for vulnerable road users - Only Malta, Cyprus, Romania and Ireland left without them in the EU.

God our legislators need to wake-up...

maestroamado

harmless wrote: »

Some real contrast here,

UK has laws that make it more dangerous

Riding two abreast

The Highway Code states that it is legal for cyclists to ride side-by-side, though Rule 66 does add that cyclists should ride in single file “on narrow or busy roads and when riding round bends.”


France has laws that make it safer
Riding two abreast

When riding in a group, you should be two abreast or single file.
At night, if a vehicle wishes to overtake, or when “circumstances make it necessary,” riders should move to become single file.
If there’s more than 10 of you, you should split into two groups.


Breaking in to groups when more than 10 should be recommended here.
My club always does this.

Do you know if any of the other countries allow 3 on public roads for the purpose of overtaking...

maestroamado

harmless wrote: »

Some real contrast here,

UK has laws that make it more dangerous

Riding two abreast

The Highway Code states that it is legal for cyclists to ride side-by-side, though Rule 66 does add that cyclists should ride in single file “on narrow or busy roads and when riding round bends.”


France has laws that make it safer
Riding two abreast

When riding in a group, you should be two abreast or single file.
At night, if a vehicle wishes to overtake, or when “circumstances make it necessary,” riders should move to become single file.
If there’s more than 10 of you, you should split into two groups.


Breaking in to groups when more than 10 should be recommended here.
My club always does this.

Do you know if any of the other countries allow 3 abreast on public roads for the purpose of overtaking...
I noticed when i was looking that somewhere allow 2 abreast but do not allow 2X2 so groups will have to be single file with a limit....

harmless

maestroamado wrote: »

Do you know if any of the other countries allow 3 on public roads for the purpose of overtaking...

There is no limit by law on how many can ride abreast in the UK but they recommend two max.

I think the site posted here is a mix of laws and recommendations which makes it a bit confusing.

John_Rambo

maestroamado wrote: »

Please enlighten us all on what has being proved over and over again.
I am not disputing what you are saying as you are saying you have proof of something.
What is it....

IF you just google cyclists make better drivers you'll find loads of evidence.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2018/10/09/cyclists-are-better-drivers-than-motorists-finds-study/

It's a bit of a no brainer, cyclists will be fitter, stronger and have much better reflexes and road sense than your average motorist.

Fighting Tao

John_Rambo wrote: »

IF you just google cyclists make better drivers you'll find loads of evidence.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2018/10/09/cyclists-are-better-drivers-than-motorists-finds-study/

It's a bit of a no brainer, cyclists will be fitter, stronger and have much better reflexes and road sense than your average motorist.

The awareness of what is happening on the road increased significantly when I took up cycling about 5/6 years ago. I am much more aware of other road users regardless of their mode of transport. I see things that I wouldn’t have noticed before, and I am a much safer driver around vulnerable road users. Everyone should cycle.

harmless

I believe I'm better at reading other users on the road(all types of transport) since I took up cycling and of course I had knowlege that I had already learnt as a driver.

It's not a confidence thing, I just feel more comfortable and ready to react to different situations that can happen out on the road.
IMO there is no better way to learn than seeing the same situations from different perspectives.

Edit: Fighting Tao just said exactly what I was typing

maestroamado

John_Rambo wrote: »

IF you just google cyclists make better drivers you'll find loads of evidence.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2018/10/09/cyclists-are-better-drivers-than-motorists-finds-study/

It's a bit of a no brainer, cyclists will be fitter, stronger and have much better reflexes and road sense than your average motorist.

Thanks...
It makes sense but i would not have thought of it.
I am cycling for 20+ years as i was at it before it got fashionable just for excercise, i was kinda the silly fella on the bike.
Because my job commercial (50/60Kpa) i would always have being aware as to what needed on the road but for this reason would never think others did not know.
I wait for traffic to pass before corners and speed up to round same to let traffic pass, i will not cycle in large groups unless its an event and only ever done 3 of these...

magicbastarder

it kinda does make sense that the more modes of transport you use, the better all round you'll be. let alone effects on reaction time/observation, you'll be a more empathetic driver/cyclist (in that you'll be able to more accurately guess what other road users are doing).

Duckjob

magicbastarder wrote: »

it kinda does make sense that the more modes of transport you use, the better all round you'll be. let alone effects on reaction time/observation, you'll be a more empathetic driver/cyclist (in that you'll be able to more accurately guess what other road users are doing).

I honestly think "empathy" is the key word here. It think a lot of the problems encountered by people on bikes on the roads come down to lack of empathy from a dangerous subset of drivers.

When I'm driving on one of my local rural roads now and I encounter one of more cyclists, it always strikes me how blindingly easy it is to just slow down, wait calmly and then move well out and overtake smoothly. As a motorist I actually get an enjoyment now out of giving those people the most non-threatening overtake I can give them.

It's not because I'm more skilled as a driver that I can do this- I just have empathy for those people because on another day I'm one of them.

John_Rambo

Fighting Tao wrote: »

The awareness of what is happening on the road increased significantly when I took up cycling about 5/6 years ago. I am much more aware of other road users regardless of their mode of transport. I see things that I wouldn’t have noticed before, and I am a much safer driver around vulnerable road users. Everyone should cycle.

Yeah, I can tell by a cyclists body posture they're thinking of a right turn and will hang back before they signal. They tend to sit up straighter, ease of on the pedals, start to check out their surroundings. Also, as a cyclist in a car I'm much much more pedestrian aware and driver aware. I can instantly see a sketchy driver by a few simple observations... mirrors not aligned right, padre pio stickers, certain car makes, tyre condition etc...

Thinkingaboutit

Cars and lorries wear out roads, and all the expense in surfacing them is for motor transport. Cars used for small journeys are a net cost whether in respect of health, congestion and pollution (all those immaculate new diesels are 'rolling coal' after a few years of poor maintenance). I suppose cyclists, like a pal of mine ride far out in the road to make a point, and can incur aggro. I don't bother. I get on a bike for either / both quiet exercise and getting somewhere. VW Golf drivers and others with anger management problems get their comeuppance, but me on my little bike won't be providing it.

Furze99

So has anyone seriously tackled the OPs point re insurance for cyclists? Perhaps it covered under motor insurance where cyclists have motor policies. Then individual insurance for the rest, cut off say all over 12 yr olds to be insured.

magicbastarder

the thread is over one and a half thousand posts long. you're asking if anyone addressed the question in the OP?

maestroamado

Furze99 wrote: »

So has anyone seriously tackled the OPs point re insurance for cyclists? Perhaps it covered under motor insurance where cyclists have motor policies. Then individual insurance for the rest, cut off say all over 12 yr olds to be insured.

I doubt if it is really a runner to make bicycle insurance compulsory but i am sure anyone can take if the wish, something like car-hire excess insurance.


The bigger concern for me is we have not signed up for the "presumed liability" as that give clear direction to what we are about. I thought we were in this already.


I was talking to some Brits a few years ago and this came up, i thought they were leaving because of Brexit, i did not know until today we never signed up as i thought we had a duty to sign up to all the safety mechanisms in EU...

AndrewJRenko

Furze99 wrote: »

So has anyone seriously tackled the OPs point re insurance for cyclists? Perhaps it covered under motor insurance where cyclists have motor policies. Then individual insurance for the rest, cut off say all over 12 yr olds to be insured.

Yes, it was seriously tackled a number of times, by asking questions like ;

- why would we want to do this?
- what problem does solve?
- does this mean that pedestrians need insurance?

Unfortunately the UP hasn't answered any of these questions. Maybe you'd like to give them a shot?

Pinch Flat

Furze99 wrote: »

So has anyone seriously tackled the OPs point re insurance for cyclists? Perhaps it covered under motor insurance where cyclists have motor policies. Then individual insurance for the rest, cut off say all over 12 yr olds to be insured.

Insurance has been discussed. What is your view of the main purpose of cycling insurance?

BabysCoffee

Furze99 wrote: »

So has anyone seriously tackled the OPs point re insurance for cyclists? Perhaps it covered under motor insurance where cyclists have motor policies. Then individual insurance for the rest, cut off say all over 12 yr olds to be insured.

Why do you think an 11 yr old doesn't need insurance, but a 12 year old does need insurance?

Where cyclists have motor insurance too (as many do because a lot of cyclists are also car drivers) should there not be a reduction in car insurance costs as cyclists are generally safer than car drivers who do not cycle? Also the times when they don't use their when they are on their bike they are less likely to cause a serious accident?

Or are you proposing cyclists need to have insurance in order to cover them from the dangers of car drivers which is more of a danger to them than they are a danger to the car driver?

Pinch Flat

Sorry for not posting in a while. Just back from a beautiful tax free cycle around North County Dublin.