Manchester United Teamtalk/Transfer/Gossip 23/24 - [New Thread Available]

y0ssar1an22

xtal191 wrote: »

fair play to craig burley, calls it how it is.

ole at the wheel though! pathetic!

Muahahaha

The difference between the timing of Oles subs and Emerys subs is stark

Muahahaha wrote: »

Oles subs came far too late to effect the game plus the first one was pretty negative as Greenwood was playing well-

Greenwood off Fred on, 100 minutes
Pogba off James on, 115 minutes
Bailey off Tunazabe on 116 minutes
Wan Bissaka & McTominaay off, Mata & Telles on, 123 minutes

Villa Real made their first sub at 60', two more at 77' and then another two at 88 minutes. It was clever game management by Emery, his team were clearly the weaker one but at 1-1 he set them up to try win within 90 minutes and to have stronger legs in extra time. Ole seemed to be almost playing for penalties with his subs in comparison and hoping DDG could bail them out in penalties.

beno619

Dozyart wrote: »

The must annoying thing tonight is that the Ole Out brigade are just going to rub each other raw for the whole summer!

Even if we had won that penalty shootout or routed them 4-0 I still wouldn't believe we were going anywhere under him, this result and most importantly performance just underline what most of the fanbase already know.

beno619

Father Hernandez wrote: »

A different result tonight would've changed everything I'll admit but with good reason.

I really don't get this, surely we've seen enough over the past 3 seasons ? If we won that shootout I don't see much cause for optimism it would have still been an absolute shocker of a performance from the manager and team.

TRC10

beno619 wrote: »

I really don't get this, surely we've seen enough over the past 3 seasons ? If we won that shootout I don't see much cause for optimism it would have still been an absolute shocker of a performance from the manager and team.

I think what he meant was, if Ole had been able to set up his team to beat the team that finished 7th in La Liga and secure a trophy, it may have instilled some confidence in some of his doubters.

It's the manner of the loss that gets to me. Had Villareal come out all guns blazing and played the game of their lives, and held on for dear life to get to penalties, with us dominating for 120 minutes, it would have been bad, but it would have been a different story.

But Villareal (an average team) didn't even play well, in fact they were poor. And it wasn't exactly a tactical masterclass from Emery. It was, 4-4-2, nick an early goal from a set piece, and park the bus. A game plan a 10 year old could come up with, but it was still too much for Ole.

I've always been reluctant to categorically say that Ole isn't the man to win a title, because ultimately, he hasn't had a squad good enough to win a title. And in terms of league position, the current team is about where it should be. But that XI we fielded tonight should have blown away Villareal. The manner in which we lost that game, along with the trend of capitulation in very winnable knockout games (Sevilla, Leicester, Villareal) moves me closer to being able to categorically state that he's not the man.

TRC10

I know I have been supportive of Ole here.

But when a Manchester United manager comes out after losing a final to Villareal and says "We missed Fred" that's surely got to be a big red flag.

Ole will always be a Manchester United legend. He could have lost 10-0 and he'dd still be a legend. But it's really hard to see where he goes from here.

beno619

TRC10 wrote: »

I think what he meant was, if Ole had been able to set up his team to beat the team that finished 7th in La Liga and secure a trophy, it may have instilled some confidence in some of his doubters.

Fair post. I guess I'm just way beyond doubt and surprised that people see today as the trigger point, this is just another typical Ole performance he's gotten away with it multiple times this season but not tonight.

kowloonkev

Muahahaha wrote: »

The difference between the timing of Oles subs and Emerys subs is stark

Because United were completely dominant for the whole of the second half. We needed the second goal. Who was the likely match winner on the bench?

kowloonkev

TRC10 wrote: »

I know I have been supportive of Ole here.

But when a Manchester United manager comes out after losing a final to Villareal and says "We missed Fred" that's surely got to be a big red flag.

Ole will always be a Manchester United legend. He could have lost 10-0 and he'dd still be a legend. But it's really hard to see where he goes from here.

Maybe continue the progress that has been made since he came in?

y0ssar1an22

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

before i read any further, are you saying ole is a great leader? just needs a few disciples and he will be the next SAF?

That’s not what was said, at all, if you had cared to read.
What I said is the great leaders don’t surround themselves with yes men. And don’t lead alone even if some make it appear than way

The Golden Miller

Hard luck to United. Used to hate them tbh, but have warmed to them the last few years. Hated the success and commercial element to them, but since the Glazers took over, the local United fans have been brilliant.

Infact it's United own fans who are often the strongest opponents to the commercialism of their own club and the game in general, regardless of the success it brought. You get the feeling United fans would trade their success for the club to be run the right way. Have to respect that

Mitch Connor

Has ole made a sub yet?

Mantis Toboggan

TRC10 wrote: »

I know I have been supportive of Ole here.

But when a Manchester United manager comes out after losing a final to Villareal and says "We missed Fred" that's surely got to be a big red flag.

Ole will always be a Manchester United legend. He could have lost 10-0 and he'dd still be a legend. But it's really hard to see where he goes from here.

Think there's no doubt he got the starting team wrong, we knew Pogba can't play in the middle, Fred should have started and one of Pogba or Rashford on the bench, at least then we'd have something on the bench to come on and make a difference.

Jofspring

I think ole in the circumstances and based on his experience in management has done a decent job. I can see why people are saying he has made some progress but let's say the position of his contract with United was different and it was coming to an end now, would people want it renewed and him stay or move on to a new manager to try take us to the next level?

paulbok

kowloonkev wrote: »

Maybe continue the progress that has been made since he came in?

Yeah, and in 5 years we might be able to win a cup,

Whatever progress we`ve made is far too slow.
2.5 years and you can argue he's only got us back to where Jose was the summer before he took over, yet with no trophy to show for it.
Top 4 and the cup final may have earned him another year, but he has shown again he isn't capable of making the next step forward and win something.

The Golden Miller

Bruno Fernandes is the one who turned it for United, not Ole. Take out the man pulling the strings, and Ole still doesn't have a clue

nullzero

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Bruno Fernandes is the one who turned it for United, not Ole. Take out the man pulling the strings, and Ole still doesn't have a clue

Take away all the trophies United supposedly never deserved to win according to you and they're a bang average club as well.

El Gato De Negocios

kowloonkev wrote: »

Maybe continue the progress that has been made since he came in?

Nearly £300,000,000 spent, an extra 7 points in the league and zero trophies, humiliation in several semi finals, humiliation in a final last night.

#progress

Kerrydude1981

The worst thing about last night is the we still haven't figured out how to deal with a team that sets up defensive, we have seen it many times, teams that keep it tight cause us all sorts of problems, we have struggled time after time to break teams down.

Lord TSC

El Gato De Negocios wrote: »

Nearly £300,000,000 spent, an extra 7 points in the league and zero trophies, humiliation in several semi finals, humiliation in a final last night.

#progress

Yeah. I think the “progress” thing is massively inflated in a bid to defend Ole, to be honest.

I think we saw the absolute minimum amount of progress this year we would have expected. We improved slightly in terms of the league. We had a great away record. We got comfortably into the top three at Xmas and never looked in danger of dropping out. And ultimately I think that’s the progress that will keep him his job; the Glazers want a man who will keep comfortably top four and don’t care about much else.

But at the end of the day, finishing comfortably second but no trophies was the absolute bare minimum I expected this season from the squad, after Ole has been given 300m worth of upgrades to the team.

We absolutely bottled European football twice this year. We bottled the CL when we needed six points from four games and couldn’t get over the line into the knockouts. We bottled last night massively. A successful season needed a trophy of some sort, and we didn’t have the mentality to deliver it.

More than anything, I worry about the mentality that we seem to have in the squad. For the entire of Oles tenure, I worry that every time we have expectations put upon the team, they wilt. And last night was the same again. We should have beaten Villareal, given the squad he had available was 750m odd worth of a squad. Did they really need Kane or Haaland to beat Villarreal? Will adding Sancho really elevate us so dramatically?

There’s a lot of issues with the coaching of the team. Set pieces, substitutions, running certain players into the ground. And those are the areas I’ve seen little to no progress in. We can bring in better players, splash another 300m on the squad, but I’ve yet to see evidence that will improve the glaring issues in how the team is managed and coached.

Pussyhands

kowloonkev wrote: »

Maybe continue the progress that has been made since he came in?

Maybe in the Europa League final we'll progress from making no subs in 90 minutes to making 1.

Pussyhands

Anyone hear Rashford again last night post match?

I'm a Rashford fan but don't go on for ages singing the praises of the team and asking "we'll have to see where it went wrong". He was the worst player on the pitch!

billyhead

The progress talk is rubbish. It's just trying to put a positive spin on things. We will be found out again next season when fans return.

billyhead

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

The worst thing about last night is the we still haven't figured out how to deal with a team that sets up defensive, we have seen it many times, teams that keep it tight cause us all sorts of problems, we have struggled time after time to break teams down.

We don't know how to defend set peices. Poor coaching. We have had plenty of time to fix this on the training ground.

castletownman

Transplant Rashford into City's squad, and do you think a) Pep would start him despite being in woeful form or b) persist with him for the entire game plus extra-time when playing awful? Not a hope in hell.

Comic Book Guy

El Gato De Negocios wrote: »

Nearly £300,000,000 spent, an extra 7 points in the league and zero trophies, humiliation in several semi finals, humiliation in a final last night.

#progress

Ole kinda reminded me of a GAA Junior b club manager last night whose go to move when a game is going against him is to use his first sub to take off the corner forward. He even took off the wrong forward.

billyhead

castletownman wrote: »

Transplant Rashford into City's squad, and do you think a) Pep would start him despite being in woeful form or b) persist with him for the entire game plus extra-time when playing awful? Not a hope in hell.

He's massively overrated by the English media. Bruno is overrated aswell but not on Rashfords scale. The crux of the problem as everyone knows is piss poor recruitment over the last few years.

Kerrydude1981

Ole said we needed to play our way into the box, would Mata have made a difference if he was brought on in normal time.

pjohnson

Also I hope I never see anyone saying Pogba should play CM ever again. Experiment #150 still utter failure. The only place he can be put to not massively hinder the team is left mid.

Kerrydude1981

Pussyhands wrote: »

Anyone hear Rashford again last night post match?

I'm a Rashford fan but don't go on for ages singing the praises of the team and asking "we'll have to see where it went wrong". He was the worst player on the pitch!

He shouldnt have even come out to do the interview after that performance.

El Gato De Negocios

Lord TSC wrote: »

Yeah. I think the “progress” thing is massively inflated in a bid to defend Ole, to be honest.

I think we saw the absolute minimum amount of progress this year we would have expected. We improved slightly in terms of the league. We had a great away record. We got comfortably into the top three at Xmas and never looked in danger of dropping out. And ultimately I think that’s the progress that will keep him his job; the Glazers want a man who will keep comfortably top four and don’t care about much else.

But at the end of the day, finishing comfortably second but no trophies was the absolute bare minimum I expected this season from the squad, after Ole has been given 300m worth of upgrades to the team.

We absolutely bottled European football twice this year. We bottled the CL when we needed six points from four games and couldn’t get over the line into the knockouts. We bottled last night massively. A successful season needed a trophy of some sort, and we didn’t have the mentality to deliver it.

More than anything, I worry about the mentality that we seem to have in the squad. For the entire of Oles tenure, I worry that every time we have expectations put upon the team, they wilt. And last night was the same again. We should have beaten Villareal, given the squad he had available was 750m odd worth of a squad. Did they really need Kane or Haaland to beat Villarreal? Will adding Sancho really elevate us so dramatically?

There’s a lot of issues with the coaching of the team. Set pieces, substitutions, running certain players into the ground. And those are the areas I’ve seen little to no progress in. We can bring in better players, splash another 300m on the squad, but I’ve yet to see evidence that will improve the glaring issues in how the team is managed and coached.

Absolutely.

Lets look at the numbers for the previous managers.

14/15 - LVG - 70 points, CL qualification, no trophies
15/16 - 66 points, FA Cup, No CL, sacked

Deemed a failure.

16/17 - LM - 69 points, CL Qualification, EL & League cup won
17/18 - 81 points, CL Qualification, lost FA final, ultimately sacked

Deemed a failure.

18/19 - 66 points, no CL Qualification, no trophies
19/20 - 66 points, CL Qualification, no trophies
20/21 - 74 points, CL Qualification, no trophies

Deemed progress.

El Gato De Negocios

pjohnson wrote: »

Also I hope I never see anyone saying Pogba should play CM ever again. Experiment #150 still utter failure. The only place he can be put to not massively hinder the team is left mid.

I want him gone, he had his usual purple patch for 10 or 12 games but has regressed to the mean as most suspected he would. Hopefully he has a barn storming Euros and someone buys him for 40 or 50 million. He is the ultimate square peg in a round hole.

billyhead

El Gato De Negocios wrote: »

I want him gone, he had his usual purple patch for 10 or 12 games but has regressed to the mean as most suspected he would. Hopefully he has a barn storming Euros and someone buys him for 40 or 50 million. He is the ultimate square peg in a round hole.

Agree. Grealish would be a good replacement if we could shift Pogba

The_Kew_Tour

xtal191 wrote: »

Would anyone disagree with what he said and why?

I wanted Ole to stay after end of last season. After the CL exit that changed.

Even during the 70s and 80s we managed to pick up FA Cups even as underdogs.

Now we cant even get over the line as favourities. I really wanted to win last night, honestly I thought I be gutted if we lost but once I knew we were playing for Penalties I knew we were in big trouble.

Its just shrug of the shoulders stuff now. The game was won on the line last night. Sure they were sitting back and at times looked limited, but they had a plan.

A United team playing for Penalties with 15 minutes to go? Never thought I would see it. We could be 3-0 with 15 minutes to go and you would always believe we were never out of it.

Thats gone. We are so weak mentality. No leaders, we just go hiding when we need someone to step up.

I said it recently we are still 5 players short and now we are also a decent manager short. We are miles behind City and next season will be a tough one.

I'm happy to wager with anyone we wont get Top 3. It will be another wasted season like most post Fergie.

The New United Way.

pjohnson

El Gato De Negocios wrote: »

I want him gone, he had his usual purple patch for 10 or 12 games but has regressed to the mean as most suspected he would. Hopefully he has a barn storming Euros and someone buys him for 40 or 50 million. He is the ultimate square peg in a round hole.

It makes no difference who is beside him either. The problem is him, not his midfield partner.

Pussyhands

Good thing Bruno never had a lengthy injury or Ole would be ****ed.

Do we rely on one player more than any other top team?

Klopp

Rashford performance last night sums up the second half of the season for him, he was really poor, he was never in the game, i don't remember him posing a treat once. Ole should have hooked him after 60mins.

With Fred injured, Matic should have started alongside Mctominay with Rashford dropped and Pogba on the left. Ole management of the squad all season is poor, last night was the crowing. Ole time is over, he was never good enough, anyone who thinks we have made progress is blinded. Fergie always invested in the first team but he also looked to bring in new ideas with new coaching and coaches which improved players every year. The team are miles off challenging for the league.

Pussyhands

pjohnson wrote: »

It makes no difference who is beside him either. The problem is him, not his midfield partner.

Not good enough defensively to play a deep position.

Not good enough to be used as the most attacking of 3 midfielders.

sReq | uTeK

nullzero wrote: »

Pogba Rashford and Bruno have been played into the ground over the course of the season by a manager who doesn't realise he has a subs bench.

Same as last year, all our best players are fvcked by the end of the season.

pogba? Really? Lads been out injured half the season.

loyatemu

Olé's going to be the manager at the start of next season, I still think we're headed for a very bad run that will see him sacked and we'll be back to square one. He's been lucky this season, we've won a lot of matches despite playing poorly, and our direct rivals have had problems. That can't continue indefenitely.

Next season, Liverpool will be back to full strength, Chelsea will be starting the season with a real manager, City will be stronger and won't start as poorly as this year. Even Arsenal have finished this season as the second best side in the form table, that augurs well for them next year if they can strengthen over the summer. But for us, more of the same.

y0ssar1an22

it'll be a few years (if ever) waiting for some silverware with this current manager, his best chance is to get knocked out of the champions league again.

the mediocrity some fans put up with both baffles and pisses me off.

Klopp

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

pogba? Really? Lads been out injured half the season.

I am not a fan of Pogba but he was played out position in our biggest game of the season, i couldn't blame him for his performance. Ole got his team selection wrong last night including his subs.

Drumpot

El Gato De Negocios wrote: »

Absolutely.

Lets look at the numbers for the previous managers.

14/15 - LVG - 70 points, CL qualification, no trophies
15/16 - 66 points, FA Cup, No CL, sacked

Deemed a failure.

16/17 - LM - 69 points, CL Qualification, EL & League cup won
17/18 - 81 points, CL Qualification, lost FA final, ultimately sacked

Deemed a failure.

18/19 - 66 points, no CL Qualification, no trophies
19/20 - 66 points, CL Qualification, no trophies
20/21 - 74 points, CL Qualification, no trophies

Deemed progress.

18/19 the damage was done under Jose , I wouldn’t blame that on Ole who nearly managed to get us top 4. In his 2 full seasons Ole has gotten CL qualification, that’s as good as it’s been for United in terms of a competition we want to be in every year. The club has failed to qualify for CL several times since 2013, that’s the reality of the club under multiple managers.

The owners are very happy with how things are going under Ole so people are angry with Ole?! Again, an example of the misguided , misplaced anger that allows the glazers to keep on doing what they do.

So they sack Ole, bring in Conte who just left a club he won the league with because they are cutting back on funding the squad. Ask Jose what the glazers do when their goals (top 4) are met. Have any of you ever thought that some of the ambitious managers you crave don’t want to come to United cause they can see how “ambitious” the owners are and how it doesn’t match up with the fans ?

United is not a super club on field anymore, haven’t been any sort of meaningful threat in the league or CL since SAF . This is just like Liverpool of the 90s, fans and pundits haven’t caught up to reality yet, still expecting high levels from a club that’s nearly a decade under performing.. A club as big as Real Madrid but one who has performed consistently closer to an Everton or Seville and going the Arsenal route.

Promise of a new manager doesn’t do anything for me because I’ve already sort of given up hope while glazers continue to run the club into the ground. I actually think Ole has done a good job overall. It’s not where we want to be, but sadly it’s a reflection of where the club is.

Weepsie

Klopp wrote: »

I am not a fan of Pogba but he was played out position in our biggest game of the season, i couldn't blame him for his performance. Ole got his team selection wrong last night including his subs.

Pogba is supposed to be one of the best players in the world. We have been told this for umpteen years now. He has the profile of a true megastar. He seems to enjoy being central to a team. He has a wide skillset and is a good athlete. He should be capable of playing in midfield with that in mind. McTominay isn't remotely as good a footballer as him, but if you were to ask who was the megastar ased on that last night, there was only one.

Pogba wasn't the worst performer either. Fernandes had a terrible game by his own standards. But he's had a few lately. He's another one who should have been rested more. It's p!ss poor management of the squad.

3 seasons in a row under Ole the team has ended the season in completely indifferent form, tired and leggy. He came in and complained about fitness and he's expecting us to think that his masterplan of sticking with a core of 14-15 players and running them into the groun will work.

The bench doesn't need to be world class. It's there to manage games. Games earlier in the season we've been ahead in, where fresh legs will have closed them out. That doesn't happen near often enough. It;s the same subs at the same times all of the time. There are exceptions, but they really stand out when they happen.

grumpymunster

Drumpot wrote: »

18/19 the damage was done under Jose , I wouldn’t blame that on Ole who nearly managed to get us top 4. In his 2 full seasons Ole has gotten CL qualification, that’s as good as it’s been for United in terms of a competition we want to be in every year. The club has failed to qualify for CL several times since 2013, that’s the reality of the club under multiple managers.

The owners are very happy with how things are going under Ole so people are angry with Ole?! Again, an example of the misguided , misplaced anger that allows the glazers to keep on doing what they do.

So they sack Ole, bring in Conte who just left a club he won the league with because they are cutting back on funding the squad. Ask Jose what the glazers do when their goals (top 4) are met. Have any of you ever thought that some of the ambitious managers you crave don’t want to come to United cause they can see how “ambitious” the owners are and how it doesn’t match up with the fans ?

United is not a super club on field anymore, haven’t been any sort of meaningful threat in the league or CL since SAF . This is just like Liverpool of the 90s, fans and pundits haven’t caught up to reality yet, still expecting high levels from a club that’s nearly a decade under performing.. A club as big as Real Madrid but one who has performed consistently closer to an Everton or Seville and going the Arsenal route.

Promise of a new manager doesn’t do anything for me because I’ve already sort of given up hope while glazers continue to run the club into the ground. I actually think Ole has done a good job overall. It’s not where we want to be, but sadly it’s a reflection of where the club is.

Your stats are very interesting I am just curious (I come in peace promise) why do you feel the damage was done under Jose?

I would fully agree he is not the manager he was a few years back but was he backed do you think or was there always an undercurrent? I know you were having an awful season when he was sacked but prior to that he actually had a half decent record for you.

Pussyhands

At least the Ole - Klopp comparisons are long dead in the water anyways.

Klopp achieved a Europa league final defeat in the first few months of his tenure.

2 and a half years later and Ole is still stuck there with a CL quality team.

Dave0301

I see Ole is defending the lack of subs by saying they had plenty of match winners on the pitch.

I agree with that, but it was clear as day that they were not in a match winning mood.

It was his job as the manager to make that call and to switch things up. He didn't do that, and not for the first time in his tenure.

Don't fault any of the players for the shootout, it is what it is.

Pussyhands

Lads does anyone have a side angle view of our goal last night?

I thought it was definitely going to be ruled out for offside as it looked like it deflected off McTominay to Cavani in an offside position.

StringerBell

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Furious that ole made essentially no effort to change the game.

You will struggle to find a manager make as little effort to win a trophy as he just did.

100% this. It was incredible to witness and not in a good way.

Weepsie

Dave0301 wrote: »

I see Ole is defending the lack of subs by saying they had plenty of match winners on the pitch.

I agree with that, but it was clear as day that they were not in a match winning mood.

It was his job as the manager to make that call and to switch things up. He didn't do that, and not for the first time in his tenure.

.

That's a complete copout.

It's also throwing the players under the bus. It's not as obvious as Jose or whatever, but it well and truly is a subtle undermining of the players .

It's saying those on the pitch didn't do the job He asked of them and that he doesn't think those on the bench are up to it.

He deserves all the criticism. He can take all the plaudits he wants for a second in a season that is like no other for all leagues, but he cocked it in this and the CL and the FA cup from good positions and it's a pattern