Manchester United Teamtalk/Transfer/Gossip 23/24 - [New Thread Available]

Tippex

downwesht wrote: »

The reality is that the Europa Cup is a losers trophy.......only clubs that are failures can enter!!
Ole showed last night that he is not brave enough to manage the team.....he had no confidence in the bench yet every confidence in DDG......no guts ,no glory.

By that logic so is the Champions League the two finalists did not win their domestic League last year so both were losers in entering....

Weepsie

However, as another issue that might highlight is, our seemingly never ending love of going down the left. A load of us commented on it last year in the QF and Semi final. And it still happens. Over 40 % of our attacks go down the left. Only a 30 down the right, despite the more dangerous player being over there.

Now Shaw possibly has something to do with that, but it shows the complete lack of balance in the side, and it is another thing that has been identified for a long time that sees no sign of changing. There are times when Rashford, Fernandes and Pogba are all drifting left to occupy the same space and offering nothing to the team as a result.

Tippex

I don't get the whole ole should have subbed Degea for the peno's. Yes, he could have but the source of the problem is we should never have been in the position of it going to peno's.
The loss is 100% on OLE, He should have hooked rashford after 55-60 mins.
No matter what anyone says about it being the Europa League its a European Trophy and for players to be disinterested and strolling around the pitch is a disgrace.
Yes, players can have bad games and off days but it is up to the manager to make the changes. The fact that Ole did not make the changes that were required when all and sundry could see it wasn't working is what lost the game not his decision to not bring on Henderson.

artvanderlay

United cannot break teams down. It's rare to see a great pass that unlocks the defence. They are reliant on a few moments of inspiration from Rashford, Fernandes etc They are just slow to get going, but they looked decent last night when they went at them hammer and tongs. That's what United used to do; wear teams down with intensity. This team just lacks that thrust and that comes from the midfield. Can't blame the forwards for not putting away chances they are just not getting. Too many similar players like Fernandes, Pogba, Fred, McTominay - they will not dictate the tempo of a game, nor stretch defences with penetrating passes. We have the speed, but we have a huge hole in the middle of the park. Can't even blame the defence too much; the midfield is not keeping control and bringing too much heat on them. I have yet to see Pogba have a really good game for United, so what's the point in keeping him? And as good as Fernandes is, he will always play behind a striker and not be a sitting midfielder. We also need a plan B to him when he is having an off day; we didn't rely on Cantona's brilliance all the time to win trophies.

I'd be happy to see Pochettino come in, get backed with 4-5 new signings including Kane. Will take Conte as second choice, but Ole is out of his depth here.

Thepoet85

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote:

The disdain the likes of Scholes and Keane show the Europa League says it all

Serial winners, who are simply not interested in anything other than winning at the highest level. Could do with a few of them right now on and off the pitch.

Weepsie

Tippex wrote: »

to be disinterested and strolling around the pitch is a disgrace.
Yes, players can have bad games and off days but it is up to the manager to make the changes. The fact that Ole did not make the changes that were required when all and sundry could see it wasn't working is what lost the game not his decision to not bring on Henderson.

That stats tell a different story though. He covered more ground, but in blocks, tackles, clearances and interceptions and had far more passes. For 90 of the 99 minutes Greenwood was on the pitch, he was mostly anonymous.

To be honest. Bruno Fernandes was as poor as anyone, but noone is asking for him to be hooked. He was shameful in his conning of the ref at one point, and was spending a lot of time mouthing off rather than actively driving forward any play. He's been well below his high standard the last few weeks.

We had more possession, covered less ground and still gave away more frees.

beno619

[Deleted User] wrote: »

How did people who became managers recognised as being capable at the top level become Managers at the top level? With the attitude that only "big" managers should take big clubs, Klopp is still at Mainz having failed to get them promoted back to the Bundesliga, Pep has the Barca B team team and Conte is shuffling Siena between Serie A and B

Probably based on doing good job at their previous clubs, Ole didn't get this job on merit.

beno619

v3ttel wrote: »

Most people here would have had Fergie sacked back in the day. This Summer is the clubs biggest for many years. If the squad is strengthened again, and we've still no trophies, then Ole's position will become under threat.

The Fergie comparisons are laughable, he broke the old firms dominance of Scottish football and won a European Cup before rocking up to Old Trafford. Ole won a league with Molde, failed in English football and had no reputation as an up and coming manager.

As I said laughable comparison.

channelsurfer2

so where do we go from here? the team and squad needs at least 5-6 new players. Ole stated "he didnt have confidence in his bench" and while that may be true somewhat the same could be said for most of the players left of the field after 90 minutes. Second is a good acheivement but i worry it could be the high of Ole's managerial career if the dosent learn from it and be more ruthless.

Pussyhands

Donnaruma is leaving Milan on a free transfer.

That means the club or two that we could potentially sell De Gea to, will likely go for Donnaruma.

Don't see us selling either keeper this summer.

Pussyhands

channelsurfer2 wrote: »

so where do we go from here? the team and squad needs at least 5-6 new players. Ole stated "he didnt have confidence in his bench" and while that may be true somewhat the same could be said for most of the players left of the field after 90 minutes. Second is a good acheivement but i worry it could be the high of Ole's managerial career if the dosent learn from it and be more ruthless.

Ole signed James, Telles, Donny and Amad...if he doesn't have confidence in them what is he signing them for?

Whatsisname

Pussyhands wrote: »

Donnaruma is leaving Milan on a free transfer.

That means the club or two that we could potentially sell De Gea to, will likely go for Donnaruma.

Don't see us selling either keeper this summer.

The **** him and Raiola have pulled on Milan over the years, not a hope, stay far away.

beno619

Weepsie wrote: »

That stats tell a different story though. He covered more ground, but in blocks, tackles, clearances and interceptions and had far more passes. For 90 of the 99 minutes Greenwood was on the pitch, he was mostly anonymous.

Yep he kept plugging away and didn't hide he was basically the only attacking outlet. He had a poor game but the criticism of his work rate is bizzare.

He's basically getting pilloried for trying and actually getting involved.

Lucas Hood

Tippex wrote: »

I don't get the whole ole should have subbed Degea for the peno's. Yes, he could have but the source of the problem is we should never have been in the position of it going to peno's.
The loss is 100% on OLE, He should have hooked rashford after 55-60 mins.
No matter what anyone says about it being the Europa League its a European Trophy and for players to be disinterested and strolling around the pitch is a disgrace.
Yes, players can have bad games and off days but it is up to the manager to make the changes. The fact that Ole did not make the changes that were required when all and sundry could see it wasn't working is what lost the game not his decision to not bring on Henderson.

I don't buy this argument.

We shouldn't have been in a penalty shootout so we shouldn't have done all we can to win it.

I'd be interested to see how you would have felt if we didn't sub on Mata and Awb had to take one. I wouldn't see Awb as great penalty taker so taking him out of the equation is a good move.

What's different with a goalkeeper?

DM_7

Lucas Hood wrote: »

I don't buy this argument.

We shouldn't have been in a penalty shootout so we shouldn't have done all we can to win it.

I'd be interested to see how you would have felt if we didn't sub on Mata and Awb had to take one. I wouldn't see Awb as great penalty taker so taking him out of the equation is a good move.

What's different with a goalkeeper?

That is a fair point, if he can decide to sub in Mata and Telles to take the first two pens, why can't Ole sub in a keeper to try and save some?

Lucas Hood

DM_7 wrote: »

That is a fair point, if he can decide to sub in Mata and Telles to take the first two pens, why can't Ole sub in a keeper to try and save some?

It's very fair.

Some people are saying "Well Fergie or pep would have never subbed a keeper in a shoot out"

Well usually all subs are used up by the time the shoot out comes around. This time we had 6 subs to be used and we only used 5.

Ole even admitted he considered it after the match.

Whatsisname

I see it's come out that Bruno opted for us to go 2nd in the penalty order whereas apparently the team who go first statistically win more.

FatherTed

beno619 wrote: »

The Fergie comparisons are laughable, he broke the old firms dominance of Scottish football and won a European Cup before rocking up to Old Trafford. Ole won a league with Molde, failed in English football and had no reputation as an up and coming manager.

As I said laughable comparison.

Fergie didn't exactly set the world alight when he came here first... He would have gone if we hadn't beaten Palace in that replay.

Fergie's first 5 years at United:

Year 1: 11th, FAC 4th round, LC 3rd round
Year 2: 2nd, FAC 5th round, LC 5th round
Year 3: 11th, FAC 6th round, LC 3rd round
Year 4: 13th, FAC Winners, LC 3rd round
Year 5: 6th, FAC 5th round, LC Final Lost, ECWC Winners

Ole's:
Year 1: 6th, FAC QF, LC 3rd round, CL QF
Year 2: 3rd, FAC SF, LC SF, EL SF
Year 3: 2nd, FAC QF, LC SF, CL Group, EL Final Lost

FatherTed

Whatsisname wrote: »

I see it's come out that Bruno opted for us to go 2nd in the penalty order whereas apparently the team who go first statistically win more.

Wow did he really win the toss and we kicked second???

Whatsisname

FatherTed wrote: »

Wow did he really win the toss and we kicked second???

The Athletic are reporting it anyway.

https://twitter.com/lauriewhitwell/status/1397902936366276610?s=20

Sebastian Dangerfield

The idea that Ole didn't trust his bench seems nuts to me. Matic, Mata, Donny, Telles and even Amad could all have played a material role in the game.

I'm a fan of Ole and I think he has broadly done a good job given the mess he took on, but this game was lost solely due to mismanagement in my opinion. The idea that Fred was the solution to what was playing out is almost laughable.

Pussyhands

FatherTed wrote: »

Wow did he really win the toss and we kicked second???

Villareal won the toss to choose ends anyways.

Does that mean Utd get to pick the order? Or is there any toss?

6 months ago I was loving the idea of Bruno getting the armband. Last night turned me right off it, he does nothing but whinge to the referee and whinge to other players about going down lightly. Yet he won a free kick outside the area from Capoue when he didn't get touched at all.

beno619

FatherTed wrote: »

Fergie didn't exactly set the world alight when he came here first... He would have gone if we hadn't beaten Palace in that replay.

Fergie's first 5 years at United:

Year 1: 11th, FAC 4th round, LC 3rd round
Year 2: 2nd, FAC 5th round, LC 5th round
Year 3: 11th, FAC 6th round, LC 3rd round
Year 4: 13th, FAC Winners, LC 3rd round
Year 5: 6th, FAC 5th round, LC Final Lost, ECWC Winners

Ole's:
Year 1: 6th, FAC QF, LC 3rd round, CL QF
Year 2: 3rd, FAC SF, LC SF, EL SF
Year 3: 2nd, FAC QF, LC SF, CL Group, EL Final Lost

I think you missed the point.

Fergie had a reputation to justify sticking with him. Ole only got the job because of his name and because we're run by amateurs not based on his credentials.

ArmaniJeanss

Definitely two separate coin tosses.
VR win the first and pick ends.
Fernandes wins the second, and can see the ref taken aback by his decision to put VR in first.

https://twitter.com/JamesJohn2427/status/1397786710566711296

Adamocovic

Who we signing today?

TRC10

Sebastian Dangerfield wrote: »

The idea that Ole didn't trust his bench seems nuts to me. Matic, Mata, Donny, Telles and even Amad could all have played a material role in the game.

I'm a fan of Ole and I think he has broadly done a good job given the mess he took on, but this game was lost solely due to mismanagement in my opinion. The idea that Fred was the solution to what was playing out is almost laughable.

I think this pretty much hits the nail on the head.

Ole was initially employed to bring some harmony back into the team and rid the club of the toxic atmosphere left behind by Jose. I don't think anyone can argue that he hasn't done that and done it very well.

But I do now fear that he's taken the team as far as he is currently capable of taking them.

The_Kew_Tour

If Jose was in charge and he did that last night we would be looking for his head.

But with Ole its progress.

Its hard to believe that a manager had 3 weeks to come up with a situation that was possible in a game and had no idea what to do

PARlance

Ole has done a good job of rooting out some of the deadwood. He's probably done as much as he can on that front. The signings under him, even though some aren't the finished article or may never be, have been good. It's clear to see there's more thought being put into the attitude of new signings.

The team have become likable again for me. Frustrating at times, but likeable, on the whole.

Man management is a big part of the job and he has done well on that front. But I would preface that be saying it seems to be mostly a "you're great" style of man management. You'll have the dressing room for much longer if you keep telling players they're great or they'll become top class strikers.

Besides that, Ole has disappointed on many many fronts.

He has a decent squad but he has no footballing philosophy or style except from "the United way" or counter attacking football.

Defensively at times we've been shocking, we're a shambles from set pieces.

It's no coincidence that we went the (league) season unbeaten away from home and lost so many at home. We are good on the break and excel when teams have to come at us. But that's just not good enough, we struggle chronically when we need to break teams down, he has had more the ample time to fix that. It's just not in him to fix.

I believe Ole was the right man for the job after Jose. He hit the reset button and it was needed. I've more or less backed him all the way but I did say that my expectations would be much higher this year. And he has fallen short of them by some way.

Ole is not a great manager, he's not a leader. He's a timid and cautious guy. His team reflects him. His management team reflects him. Nice guys.

The biggest progress made this year was Liverpool's disaster. The hasn't been any real progress considering the low base we were at. 8 points on top of 66, with Bruno and Cavani for the full year... As Roy would say... Progress, gimme a break.

He has just about done enough to not get sacked/get another 12 months grace, but it'll be a frustrating time. I hope he manages to get 3 more good signings in this summer because I'm fairly sure it'll be his last. We won't be in a situation of having no challengers for second next year.

The only hope he turns it around is to get an incredibly strong back room team assembled this summer.

Director of football/recruitment for us would be a much more suitable role. He has lost me but I'll never be Ole Out, he is too good a guy for that.

Sebastian Dangerfield

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Its hard to believe that a manager had 3 weeks to come up with a situation that was possible in a game and had no idea what to do

Worse than that, they played consistently terribly for the last few weeks and provided more than enough indicators that something was amiss, and he did nothing to arrest the slide. Yes, fixture congestion was an issue, but instead of trying 2-3 here and there in the established time and rotating in and out, by and large it was the A team playing or a cast of reserves.

It wasn't just a bad day at the office. This team goes through spells where it's hopeless for multiple games, and there doesn't seem to be any other option than "let them play their way out of it".

TRC10

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

If Jose was in charge and he did that last night we would be looking for his head.

But with Ole its progress.

Its hard to believe that a manager had 3 weeks to come up with a situation that was possible in a game and had no idea what to do

I've seen this argument made a lot. And it's a strawman.

Nobody has ever said losing the EL final to Villarreal is progress.

6th to 3rd to 2nd is progress whether you want to admit it or not.

But you can acknowledge that while also acknowledging the fact that Ole can't seem to hack it in knockout cup games.

Ole has done some good stuff with us, but when he said last night "we missed Fred" I honestly lost a lot of the respect I previously had for him as a manager

Rocko

https://twitter.com/IrishMirror/status/1397890327273431042


United Troll taking defeat bad

DM_7

PARlance wrote: »

Ole has done a good job of rooting out some of the deadwood. He's probably done as much as he can on that front. The signings under him, even though some aren't the finished article or may never be, have been good. It's clear to see there's more thought being put into the attitude of new signings.

The team have become likable again for me. Frustrating at times, but likeable, on the whole.

Man management is a big part of the job and he has done well on that front. But I would preface that be saying it seems to be mostly a "you're great" style of man management. You'll have the dressing room for much longer if you keep telling players they're great or they'll become top class strikers.

Besides that, Ole has disappointed on many many fronts.

He has a decent squad but he has no footballing philosophy or style except from "the United way" or counter attacking football.

Defensively at times we've been shocking, we're a shambles from set pieces.

It's no coincidence that we went the (league) season unbeaten away from home and lost so many at home. We are good on the break and excel when teams have to come at us. But that's just not good enough, we struggle chronically when we need to break teams down, he has had more the ample time to fix that. It's just not in him to fix.

I believe Ole was the right man for the job after Jose. He hit the reset button and it was needed. I've more or less backed him all the way but I did say that my expectations would be much higher this year. And he has fallen short of them by some way.

Ole is not a great manager, he's not a leader. He's a timid and cautious guy. His team reflects him. His management team reflects him. Nice guys.

The biggest progress made this year was Liverpool's disaster. The hasn't been any real progress considering the low base we were at. 8 points on top of 66, with Bruno and Cavani for the full year... As Roy would say... Progress, gimme a break.

He has just about done enough to not get sacked/get another 12 months grace, but it'll be a frustrating time. I hope he manages to get 3 more good signings in this summer because I'm fairly sure it'll be his last. We won't be in a situation of having no challengers for second next year.

The only hope he turns it around is to get an incredibly strong back room team assembled this summer.

Director of football/recruitment for us would be a much more suitable role. He has lost me but I'll never be Ole Out, he is too good a guy for that.

I have used bold on the top part of your post as that is what I think of when I think of progress made under Ole. I think the team is in a better place and needed a couple of 'steady' years.

The team has to kick on now, as you point out in a fair way it is not something we can be confident about or expect to happen under Ole.

I think he will be staying out and get the chance to prove people wrong (me included). One plus is he said it himself that the club need to improve so he will be looking for them to do more and not just stay still. That should help if it ever gets to stage where he proves the many concerns to be right and another manager is sought.

Tippex

Lucas Hood wrote: »

It's very fair.

Some people are saying "Well Fergie or pep would have never subbed a keeper in a shoot out"

Well usually all subs are used up by the time the shoot out comes around. This time we had 6 subs to be used and we only used 5.

Ole even admitted he considered it after the match.

I was not aware that we could have made a sixth sub.
You are completely correct in the fact of bringing one mata and telles was the correct call.
The fact that he still had the sub to use and didn't bring on Henderson is valid and having the extra sub he should have made the change.

However, I still stand by the fact we should not have been in the position we were in. His use of the bench during the game was atrocious.

Whatsisname

https://twitter.com/MarcusRashford/status/1397935447695896582?s=20

Whatsisname

https://twitter.com/utdreport/status/1397938519218298884?s=20

PARlance

DM_7 wrote: »

I have used bold on the top part of your post as that is what I think of when I think of progress made under Ole. I think the team is in a better place and needed a couple of 'steady' years.

The team has to kick on now, as you point out in a fair way it is not something we can be confident about or expect to happen under Ole.

I think he will be staying out and get the chance to prove people wrong (me included). One plus is he said it himself that the club need to improve so he will be looking for them to do more and not just stay still. That should help if it ever gets to stage where he proves the many concerns to be right and another manager is sought.

Ya, I think credit needs to go to him for getting us back on the right track. I hope he continues that with some good signings this summer. I don't think there's any fear that he'll be sacked until we have a poor CL or we're struggling for Top 4 next year. There's a sense inevitably about that for me.

As I said last night, we're getting really good at saying the right things. Rashford was saying the right things. Ole was saying the right things. If Bruno or Pogba were interviewed, they'd say the right things. Doing the rights things is the important thing and we're not great at that.

wanderer100

He was always going to get the new contract despite yesterday's result so this shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

It's critical now that the club back Ole this summer and give him his first choice transfer targets. We can't have a repeat of last summer.

https://twitter.com/utdreport/status/1397938519218298884?s=20

AidoEirE

Zidane, Allegri, Conte and possibly Poch

All available this summer but yet we will offer a 3 year extension to Ole...Says it all really.

Pussyhands

Whatsisname wrote: »

https://twitter.com/MarcusRashford/status/1397935447695896582?s=20

FFS Rashford, get off twitter and give the social justice stuff a rest for once. You couldn't be reading it aged 7 because you have to be 13 to join twitter.

Why even mention playing through obstacles if it's no excuse?

Pussyhands

wanderer100 wrote: »

He was always going to get the new contract despite yesterday's result so this shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

It's critical now that the club back Ole this summer and give him his first choice transfer targets. We can't have a repeat of last summer.

https://twitter.com/utdreport/status/1397938519218298884?s=20

Saying give him his 1st choice transfer targets is too simplistic. Even Pep doesn't get his first choice sometimes. He wanted Maguire, Jorginho, Fred, Sanchez for example.

DM_7

AidoEirE wrote: »

Zidane, Allegri, Conte and possibly Poch

All available this summer but yet we will offer a 3 year extension to Ole...Says it all really.

I understand the sentiment.

Only two of them (Poch and Allegri) would be people that would be suitable for even a medium term appointment. And one (Poch) is looking like he will leave a few months into his current job.

United can't go for another short term option even if changing Ole. Short term thinking is what led to the need for an Ole to start with.

TRC10

AidoEirE wrote: »

Zidane, Allegri, Conte and possibly Poch

All available this summer but yet we will offer a 3 year extension to Ole...Says it all really.

Ole gets top 4. That's all the Glazers want. And as long as he's getting top 4, he'll be the manager.

And people here seriously think Ole is the root of all the problems at the club.

False Prophet

Whatsisname wrote: »

https://twitter.com/utdreport/status/1397938519218298884?s=20

Great news, if ole is backed and can't win the major trophies in the next couple of seasons then at least he will be leaving the team in a far better place then he found it.

False Prophet

AidoEirE wrote: »

Zidane, Allegri, Conte and possibly Poch

All available this summer but yet we will offer a 3 year extension to Ole...Says it all really.

yes it does.

Poch managed to lose title in a 1 team league and failed in europe. Not to mention his poor record against the other big clubs when he was at spurs.

Conte defensive style would not work at united plus he would prob look to buy over the hill 30 year olds for short term gain.

Zidane It would make no sense to get him as he is real madrid Ole and when the going would get bad , he would get the same insults of not being good enough

Allegri Its hard to know how good he is. Failed to win champions league and won title with the best team in the league that won titles before and after him.

Pussyhands

DM_7 wrote: »

I understand the sentiment.

Only two of them (Poch and Allegri) would be people that would be suitable for even a medium term appointment. And one (Poch) is looking like he will leave a few months into his current job.

United can't go for another short term option even if changing Ole. Short term thinking is what led to the need for an Ole to start with.

If Chelsea were like us, they'd have given Lampard a new contract, ended up finishing outside top 4 and getting nowhere near a CL final and the fans would be claiming we need to clear the deadwood and think long term.

Instead, they were ruthless, in the CL next season and CL finalists.

Headshot

Whatsisname wrote: »

https://twitter.com/utdreport/status/1397938519218298884?s=20

Utd doing what they do best rewarding mediocrity. We've done it in the past with Phil Jones contact and we are still doing it

The club is so ****ing badly run, god I want those parasites out of our club

Prefab Sprouter

Pussyhands wrote: »

Ole signed James, Telles, Donny and Amad...if he doesn't have confidence in them what is he signing them for?

Exactly. In the case of VDB, why spend 40 million on a player only to ignore him when your tactics arent working? Our first eleven is competitive enough but start to turn to the bench and the options arent that deep. Not deep enough to change a game, and Ole's reluctance to substitute anyone until the 100th minute is proof of that.

beno619

TRC10 wrote: »

And people here seriously think Ole is the root of all the problems at the club.

I don't think you should be accusing other people of strawman arguments.

TRC10

beno619 wrote: »

I don't think you should be accusing other people of strawman arguments.

People have literally said the problems start and end with Ole

Ole is a problem for sure, but he's one of many

False Prophet

Monserrat Rotten Parrot wrote: »

Strange to leave out him bringing a spurs side to a cl final in a year they were drained of all investment or leading southampton to 8th aswell.

Leading southampton to 8th as no relevance to being united manager. Otherwise we should get shef utd manager etc or any other the other managers that have had 1 good season.

What did poch win with Spurs? Other managers have taken teams to European finals like Avram Grant or even won it like Roberto Di Matteo. And Poch in the end got sacked for having a spurs team near relegation that was meant to challenge for title and was certainly meant to be better then the team ole had.