Manchester United Teamtalk/Transfer/Gossip 23/24 - [New Thread Available]

The White Wolf

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

coming up on 10 years without the league. give ole another 5 for the progress hes making.

at lest Chelsea have the balls to remedy an incorrect decision.

Forgive me but I thought 2013 was the last win? Not quite a decade lost yet.

Drumpot

Pussyhands wrote: »

What is it with thinking because the owners aren't going to do X, that we as fans shouldn't think we should be doing X.

So because the Glazers would never buy Harry Kane, then no fan should ever say we should buy Harry Kane?

If we sacked Ole, the Glazers wouldn't hire Conte, therefore no fan should be allowed to say they would like us to sign Conte?

I never said that at all. Most of the things discussed in these forums is mostly subjective sentiments based off what little we know and what we do know. I’m challanging the unproven presumption that all top coaches want to manage United and that a better manager automatically equates to better results. That happens at most clubs because most clubs have a football strategy that utilisides its resources well. It’s not happened at United since SAF retired, so it’s reasonable to assume that whatever way Uniteds owners are using our resources, it’s wasting our financial advantage. That’s just common a sense deduction to make.

What we know beyond a doubt is that United is a unique outlier when it comes to super clubs spending vast amount of money and being unable to get any sort of meaningful success out of it.

Pussyhands wrote: »

Real Madrid sack managers willy nilly. They even sack managers before they've even managed games for them! Yet they'll still have a queue of managers lining up.

Yes, Real Madrid sack managers and can still get success. That’s because Real Madrid know how to create a squad capable of success. You keep arguing points I’m not making and Confusing my overall point. You keep going back to sacking Ole as the solution or some sort of promising silver bullet. I want better aswell, but I don’t see United being run like other clubs. I don’t see our owners having the same ambition as any super club. I don’t see United spend its money well.

It’s funny cause some of you just can’t get past “sack Ole and things improve”. Sack Ole and things will change, of that I am confident, but beyond that I don’t know because I don’t think it’s reasonable to hold the same hope with United that a new manager has brought at other clubs. We’ve had 4 managers in 8 years, it’s not like United has held onto managers for a decades, so where are you getting the likes of Conte would want to manage United and he’d come in an do a good job. What’s this based on? That it happens at other clubs that succeed with and without these managers and don’t have the same failed decade that United has on its resume.

Lord TSC

where are you getting the likes of Conte would want to manage United and he’d come in an do a good job.

Where are you getting that they wouldn’t want to manage United?

As for a good job, we have appointed four managers since Fergie left.

Two who were massively under qualified.
One that was in the twilight years of his career.
One who could be considered world class, but obviously has attitude issues.

We, by and large, haven’t even tried to get a top level manager in his prime. Conte, Zidane, even Rodgers, would be clear and immediate upgrades on Ole. Arguing otherwise is just insane. Even with the Glazers being as they are, an improvement on manager would easily, easily improve results. It’s mind blowing to argue replacing Ole with a top level manager wouldn’t improve things.

False Prophet

Lord TSC wrote: »

Where are you getting that they wouldn’t want to manage United?

As for a good job, we have appointed four managers since Fergie left.

Two who were massively under qualified.
One that was in the twilight years of his career.
One who could be considered world class, but obviously has attitude issues.

We, by and large, haven’t even tried to get a top level manager in his prime. Conte, Zidane, even Rodgers, would be clear and immediate upgrades on Ole. Arguing otherwise is just insane. Even with the Glazers being as they are, an improvement on manager would easily, easily improve results. It’s mind blowing to argue replacing Ole with a top level manager wouldn’t improve things.

Why Zidane? He has no experience of Premier league or man utd. Winning league and champs leagues with ronaldo is alot different then trying to win a league with a squad thats probably 4th best.

Conte is another jose, hiring him would ruin the progress made as he would want utd to buy lots of mature 30 years old so he could try to win aka quick fix.

Rodgers, you have to be taking the piss. He wouldnt last a season. Plus you say moyes wasn't qualified when he got Everton top 4 with a poorer squad yet rogers is qualified? Rodgers did nothing with celtic in Europe and his has failed countless times at the end of the season.

Anyway its a pointless argument as ole isn't going anywhere anytime soon and when team have a bad spell there will probably be other flavour of the month managers around.

beno619

I don't understand the posts that suggest there isn't another manager in world football who could ever manage United, Ole is somehow uniquely qualified based on playing for the club before and winning a title in Norway.

An interesting conversation almost broke out yesterday. There is a sizable part of the fanbase that doesn't see winning and excellence as part or the "United way". I love the idea of bringing through young players and the idea of backing the right manager but I wouldn't put those above all else.

Pussyhands

beno619 wrote: »

I don't understand the posts that suggest there isn't another manager in world football who could ever manage United, Ole is somehow uniquely qualified based on playing for the club before and winning a title in Norway.

An interesting conversation almost broke out yesterday. There is a sizable part of the fanbase that doesn't see winning and excellence as part or the "United way". I love the idea of bringing through young players and the idea of backing the right manager but I wouldn't put those above all else.

Ole says all the right things which gives fans that fuzzy feeling which completely blinds them to the fact he's not good enough.

- 2nd place is not successful, only being the best is good enough for Utd
- Giving young players a chance is what the club is all about
- Need to get back to where we belong
- Need that Utd culture of old back
- references to Busby/Charlton/"the boss"
- Old trafford and it's fans are the best in the world

DM_7

I think United should have waited longer before even appointing Ole and at the time should have gone all out to get Ten Hag or Poch. I still think Ten Hag is who United should have as coach.

In terms of Ole as manager in his two full seasons his success, if I am allowed use that term, has been his ability to manage the football team as well as Ed and the ownership.

Moyes, LVG and Jose couldn't.

That is the first question mark about the expectations that are held about a Zidane coming in, can they deal with how poor the club has been ran? It is not even a question with Conte for example, it is a flat no.

The other issue is then if we acknowledge the club is poorly ran is it correct to have confidence that a Zidane would be able to get United to a better position because he did well with another side?

Zidane at OT may not be equal to Zidane at Real because United are not the same and are not better away from the pitch.

The United manager can't just coach the team, they also have to manage Ed and co.

Also, I don't believe the clubs staff or owners have the football knowledge or insight needed to move out the guy who got 3rd, then 2nd and then make the right choice when they go to pick a new coach suited to working with the team left behind. That would also lower my sense of expectations or confidence that a new manager will get better results just because they have a better coaching record alone.

Saying the above is not advocating for Ole or saying no other manager could do better it is just expanding the conversation to include some of the other challenges a manager has at United right now.

Whatsisname

I can't remember if it's been posted here yet or not but Carl Anka from The Athletic did a podcast with Stretford Paddock a few weeks ago and touched on a lot of the stuff being mentioned in here right now.

He gives a bit of insight into the runnings of the club now, compared to under Fergie and in comparison with clubs like Chelsea and City. Also speaks about how LVG had flood lights installed at Carrington, cameras everywhere and tracked the fitness of all the players through those Statzone vests, then Jose came in and scrapped all that and Ole's had to start it all up again. It seems as expected, the club is still being run as it was under Fergie, where the manager has to do the job of multiple people rather than just manage the team.

Some bizarre bits about Cavani finding a butchers in Stretford Mall that helped him feel more at home in Manchester and Florent Malouda getting muscle injuries because of his wisdom teeth. A really fascinating listen tho, Carl Anka's one of the best up and coming football writers imo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mOXR8kozyM

Drumpot

Lord TSC wrote: »

Where are you getting that they wouldn’t want to manage United?

As for a good job, we have appointed four managers since Fergie left.

Two who were massively under qualified.
One that was in the twilight years of his career.
One who could be considered world class, but obviously has attitude issues.

We, by and large, haven’t even tried to get a top level manager in his prime. Conte, Zidane, even Rodgers, would be clear and immediate upgrades on Ole. Arguing otherwise is just insane. Even with the Glazers being as they are, an improvement on manager would easily, easily improve results. It’s mind blowing to argue replacing Ole with a top level manager wouldn’t improve things.

“We haven’t by an large tried to get top level managers”. Why is that? Why do you think that is? Why did Jose fail and not push on after he got us second? What tools was he given to take the team up another level? (Dalot and Fred).

If you replace Ole with a top level manager, you have to support them. You have to have high goals. Do United owners have high goals? Is the club setup and primed to help managers create success on field? Are managers backed properly and through a proven system that Helps create winning squads? So , if the owners don’t change how they run things and their priorities, it’s going to be very difficult for a top manager to meet their own top objectives.

I want to be clear here. You think if a top manager has a pick of all the top 10 euro clubs or top English clubs, they chose United because ....... ? What exactly? It’s not down to recent success, it’s not down to club facilities , it’s not down to clubs ability to acquire its top target? Its not because uniyed have been there or thereabouts the last few years. It’s nothing to do with on field capabilities when you look at that squad and you factor in the cynical way we all know the glazers react to what the Squad needs. Always 2/3 players behind what we need.

beno619 wrote: »

I don't understand the posts that suggest there isn't another manager in world football who could ever manage United, Ole is somehow uniquely qualified based on playing for the club before and winning a title in Norway.

An interesting conversation almost broke out yesterday. There is a sizable part of the fanbase that doesn't see winning and excellence as part or the "United way". I love the idea of bringing through young players and the idea of backing the right manager but I wouldn't put those above all else.

Not sure if thus is directed at me, I presume it isn’t, becashe I didn’t say anything of the sort. I’d appreciate if anybody responding to me could stop implying I’m defending Ole, I’m not, I’m saying I’m not sure the club issues are a good mix with a really ambitious manager. Since the only proof we have is that the clubs a mess, I don’t get this confidence that a much better manager would want to choose United over other comparable size clubs.

It’s gonna take Jose levels spending to entice a top top manager and I’m not convinced that’s happening this summer.

Drumpot

DM_7 wrote: »

I think United should have waited longer before even appointing Ole and at the time should have gone all out to get Ten Hag or Poch. I still think Ten Hag is who United should have as coach.

In terms of Ole as manager in his two full seasons his success, if I am allowed use that term, has been his ability to manage the football team as well as Ed and the ownership.

Moyes, LVG and Jose couldn't.

That is the first question mark about the expectations that are held about a Zidane coming in, can they deal with how poor the club has been ran? It is not even a question with Conte for example, it is a flat no.

The other issue is then if we acknowledge the club is poorly ran is it correct to have confidence that a Zidane would be able to get United to a better position because he did well with another side?

Zidane at OT may not be equal to Zidane at Real because United are not the same and are not better away from the pitch.

The United manager can't just coach the team, they also have to manage Ed and co.

Also, I don't believe the clubs staff or owners have the football knowledge or insight needed to move out the guy who got 3rd, then 2nd and then make the right choice when they go to pick a new coach suited to working with the team left behind. That would also lower my sense of expectations or confidence that a new manager will get better results just because they have a better coaching record alone.

Saying the above is not advocating for Ole or saying no other manager could do better it is just expanding the conversation to include some of the other challenges a manager has at United right now.

I will leave it to you in future. You are better at explaining the point better then me.

beno619

DM_7 wrote: »

I think United should have waited longer before even appointing Ole and at the time should have gone all out to get Ten Hag or Poch. I still think Ten Hag is who United should have as coach.

In terms of Ole as manager in his two full seasons his success, if I am allowed use that term, has been his ability to manage the football team as well as Ed and the ownership.

Moyes, LVG and Jose couldn't.

I understand where you're coming from but I disagree.

Moyes. He almost shouldn't even be included in any comparisons such was the **** show that the club became in the immediate aftermath of Fergie leaving, he also wasn't a good fit for the club full stop. I'm not sure how anyone could assess his relationship with Woodward and how that fed into how things went.

LVG. There's no evidence he couldn't manage the relationship or at least I don't remember any stories. Fan pressure and missing out on the CL was his undoing not his relationship with Woodward and Co.

Mourinho. Managed the relationship well until they pulled the rug out from under him and condemned his United side to being also rans.

What does managing Ed and co even mean ?
Ole has just been a useful pawn in placating a subset of the fanbase and lowing expectations based on soundbites about the United way.

How does that move the club forward in a meaningful way ?

beno619

Drumpot wrote: »

Not sure if thus is directed at me, I presume it isn’t, becashe I didn’t say anything of the sort. I’d appreciate if anybody responding to me could stop implying I’m defending Ole, I’m not, I’m saying I’m not sure the club issues are a good mix with a really ambitious manager. Since the only proof we have is that the clubs a mess, I don’t get this confidence that a much better manager would want to choose United over other comparable size clubs.

It’s gonna take Jose levels spending to entice a top top manager and I’m not convinced that’s happening this summer.

Only partially.

If you're argument is why would Zidane (I have massive doubts but he has a CV he can actually point to) choose us over a better run club(Chelsea for example) that could offer him similar wages and a reasonable shot at bieng successful I agree with you.

If you're arguing that a better manager (Conte, Potch) wouldn't improve the collection of players we already have, the football and display some semblance of a plan then I disagree with you and that's what my post was about.

pjohnson

Dylan Levitt joins Dan James in going to the Euros.

Drumpot

beno619 wrote: »

Only partially.

If you're argument is why would Zidane (I have massive doubts but he has a CV he can actually point to) choose us over a better run club(Chelsea for example) that could offer him similar wages and a reasonable shot at bieng successful I agree with you.

If you're arguing that a better manager (Conte, Potch) wouldn't improve the collection of players we already have, the football and display some semblance of a plan then I disagree with you and that's what my post was about.

I never said another manager can’t improve on what Ole did. I’m just not convinced one can apply normal expectations on managers with United unless the way the club has been run changes dramatically. Like DM7 said, to presume a zidane at a Chelsea or city or Madrid would be the same as zidane at United , ignores all the baggage and issues that comes with managing United.

Drumpot

beno619 wrote: »

I understand where you're coming from but I disagree.

Moyes. He almost shouldn't even be included in any comparisons such was the **** show that the club became in the immediate aftermath of Fergie leaving, he also wasn't a good fit for the club full stop. I'm not sure how anyone could assess his relationship with Woodward and how that fed into how things went.

LVG. There's no evidence he couldn't manage the relationship or at least I don't remember any stories. Fan pressure and missing out on the CL was his undoing not his relationship with Woodward and Co.

Mourinho. Managed the relationship well until they pulled the rug out from under him and condemned his United side to being also rans.

What does managing Ed and co even mean ?
Ole has just been a useful pawn in placating a subset of the fanbase and lowing expectations based on soundbites about the United way.

How does that move the club forward in a meaningful way ?

Everybody accepts the club is poorly run, the facilities are not up with the best and the owners don’t care about success. But this doesn’t affect a managers ability to match what they did at other clubs , with United? So managing United is the same as Real Madrid or city or Liverpool despite all the issues at United?

Managing ed and co prob means the same as anybody who works with a boss who is completely out of their depth in a company that appears to still make money in spite of how poorly its run..

beno619

Drumpot wrote: »

I never said another manager can’t improve on what Ole did. I’m just not convinced one can apply normal expectations on managers with United unless the way the club has been run changes dramatically. Like DM7 said, to presume a zidane at a Chelsea or city or Madrid would be the same as zidane at United , ignores all the baggage and issues that comes with managing United.

I don't think anyone disagree's with what you have written so I'm not sure why your arguing against my points with what you have above.

What you have above still isn't justification not to look so improve the manager.

beno619

Drumpot wrote: »

Everybody accepts the club is poorly run, the facilities are not up with the best and the owners don’t care about success. But this doesn’t affect a managers ability to match what they did at other clubs , with United? So managing United is the same as Real Madrid or city or Liverpool despite all the issues at United?

Managing ed and co prob means the same as anybody who works with a boss who is completely out of their depth in a company that appears to still make money in spite of how poorly its run..

I'm not sure what any of that has to do with whether Ole has/hasnt successfully managed Ed and co.

If that's your definition of managing Ed then my original point still stands. I don't see why it's should be heralded as a success, it's benefited Ole, Ed and the Glazers financially not the club so it's not something I'm going to commend him for.

Drumpot

beno619 wrote: »

I don't think anyone disagree's with what you have written so I'm not sure why your arguing against my points with what you have above.

What you have above still isn't justification not to look so improve the manager.

I’ve not objected to a new manager, just not convinced you can apply the same logic (better manager will equate to better results) at a broken club.

DM_7

beno619 wrote: »

I understand where you're coming from but I disagree.

Moyes. He almost shouldn't even be included in any comparisons such was the **** show that the club became in the immediate aftermath of Fergie leaving, he also wasn't a good fit for the club full stop. I'm not sure how anyone could assess his relationship with Woodward and how that fed into how things went.

LVG. There's no evidence he couldn't manage the relationship or at least I don't remember any stories. Fan pressure and missing out on the CL was his undoing not his relationship with Woodward and Co.

Mourinho. Managed the relationship well until they pulled the rug out from under him and condemned his United side to being also rans.

What does managing Ed and co even mean ?
Ole has just been a useful pawn in placating a subset of the fanbase and lowing expectations based on soundbites about the United way.

How does that move the club forward in a meaningful way ?

Managing Ed and Co was a quick way to describe the off field lack of direction and football planning that goes on at United and that a Man Utd manager has to manage the fall out of that.

I did not intend to go into major detail as it would lead to discussion of individual things where people are likely to disagree on particular items - for example classing Ole as a pawn - which would move away from the substantive point, dealing with United's management and ownership, dealing with the results of their decisions is a major issue for any manager at United and would also undermine a Zidane. Such problems would handicap such managers and damage their chances of reaching the levels they have elsewhere.

One easy example is transfer targets don't appear to align to any football idea. Transfer failings experienced by Moyes, LVG and Jose undermined each of them to the point they ended up out of a job. I think Ole has done well so far considering those things but these issues are still going on and are likely to cost him his job too.

I am not looking to argue any of the below to a great degree and the points are not fully developed as result, I am just trying to touch on examples of how the club is a bit of a mess.

Moyes wanted a midfield player like Thiago or Cesc, instead he gets Fellaini. LVG wants a striker and gets Di Maria who is gone inside a season and then Martial. Jose wants a CB and gets Fred and Dalot.

Ole needs a striker when Lukaku is going, gets nobody that summer. United are not doing well in 2019 and need players in January 2020. United lost 3 of the 4 league games that month, Ole eventually gets two players at the end of the window instead of the start. That decision and delay could have cost him his job. These things will still happen under another manager.

To go back to the striker issue, Ole wanted Haaland but doesn't get him so 6 weeks later he gets Ighalo, from China, who it appears Ole had to find himself through his own agent friends.

Last summer Ole still needs a striker, he gets Cavani on a short term deal again at the very end of the window. Ole is supposedly looking for a Sancho or Grealish, no here is Donny, Pellestri and Amad instead.

When Jose takes over from LVG he does not want half the players as his football idea is not Like LVG. From day 1 his chances of great success in the short terms were damaged as a result. A well run club would have players who are adaptable and suited to a variety of managers needs only needing a few tweaks or would be looking for managers with similar requirements and ideas so the person taking over would suit the players available.

We could look at Pogba who I have seen described as a commercially valuable player and we can assume is someone the clubs money people want to have on board. He was bought as the first major signing under Jose. Player and manager publicly fell out, did Jose ever really want Pogba I wonder?

Like Jose, Ole had to manage the issue of dealing with a player who wants out, who the hierarchy don't want out and want to be used, who doesn't appear to fit.
Ole has appeared to manage that issue relatively well. Ole has dropped Pogba at times with little fuss, played left midfield for tactical reasons with little fuss, been used in midfield in a two and a three. At another club Pogba would be gone but it appears the club have little interest in allowing him to go so Ole has done what he can to utilise that player.

It is not a roaring success or anything under Ole but above are some examples of the kinds of things a United manager will be stuck dealing with that will damage their opportunity to be successful. Again, that is not saying United "should not go for a Zidane" it is just a cautionary note to go with that wish.

Mitch Connor

Ready for the summer window peeps.... LETTTTSSSSS GOOOOOO.

duffman13

Drumpot wrote: »

I’ve not objected to a new manager, just not convinced you can apply the same logic (better manager will equate to better results) at a broken club.

I think you can objectively apply that logic tbh.

If there's three basic levels of United as a club, owners, coaching/staff and then the players and you upgrade one, it stands to reason that things will improve. The Glazers are the biggest single issue in my opinion but you upgrade the manager things get better, same with the players.

The narrative that no manager could get better from this team is ridiculous to be honest.

Mitch Connor

duffman13 wrote: »

I think you can objectively apply that logic tbh.

If there's three basic levels of United as a club, owners, coaching/staff and then the players and you upgrade one, it stands to reason that things will improve. The Glazers are the biggest single issue in my opinion but you upgrade the manager things get better, same with the players.

The narrative that no manager could get better from this team is ridiculous to be honest.

BuT We haVE trIEd bIg NaMes BefoRE

Lord TSC

duffman13 wrote: »

I think you can objectively apply that logic tbh.

If there's three basic levels of United as a club, owners, coaching/staff and then the players and you upgrade one, it stands to reason that things will improve. The Glazers are the biggest single issue in my opinion but you upgrade the manager things get better, same with the players.

The narrative that no manager could get better from this team is ridiculous to be honest.

By the same logic, there’s no point upgrading any players this summer, as nothing will improve so long as the Glazers are there. May as well stick with Fred, Lindelof, Mata, etc.

pjohnson

Lord TSC wrote: »

By the same logic, there’s no point upgrading any players this summer, as nothing will improve so long as the Glazers are there. May as well stick with Fred, Lindelof, Mata, etc.

Well tbf WILL the club actually upgrade the players?

I mean we've been needing a RW since Moyes, Jose wanted a CB and a CM, and now years later its going into this summer and we still need all 3 positions dealt with.

If the club was as good at maintaining the playing squad as it was changing managers it'd be better off.

A new manager will be probably told to "rejuvenate" Lingard/Jones/Fred rather than replacing them.

Drumpot

duffman13 wrote: »

I think you can objectively apply that logic tbh.

If there's three basic levels of United as a club, owners, coaching/staff and then the players and you upgrade one, it stands to reason that things will improve. The Glazers are the biggest single issue in my opinion but you upgrade the manager things get better, same with the players.

The narrative that no manager could get better from this team is ridiculous to be honest.

Where has anybody said this?

And upgrading players/managers doesn’t always work out. Sanchez didn’t exactly work out , did it? Sometimes better quality does not transfer to different environments/clubs.

Drumpot

Lord TSC wrote: »

By the same logic, there’s no point upgrading any players this summer, as nothing will improve so long as the Glazers are there. May as well stick with Fred, Lindelof, Mata, etc.

Nope, you are all completely misrepresenting the point being made. Where has anybody said a new manager will not or cannot do any better?

v3ttel

beno619 wrote: »

How does that move the club forward in a meaningful way ?

6th -> 3th -> 2nd. Closing the gap to the top every year. Not success, but better than constantly missing top 4.

Better recruitment, player development (Greenwood, Shaw, McTominay).

Regardless of people's thoughts about Ole being able to bring us big trophies, the club is going to be much better for his time in charge. It's the first first time that I feel we have a likeable team since Fergie. Still, it obviously has faults, but Christ, it's better than December 2018.

duffman13

Drumpot wrote: »

Where has anybody said this?

And upgrading players/managers doesn’t always work out. Sanchez didn’t exactly work out , did it? Sometimes better quality does not transfer to different environments/clubs.

From the below, I dont think a different manager will necessarily make a different but I do think a better manager will. Do you think a better manager than Ole exists and if so, would that manager do a better job if put in place. I think the answer is Yes to both to be honest. There's always variables but Ole I don't believe is the man to bring us forward.

I've always liked him and wasn't against the appointment after the caretaker gig. However I'm looking at us now and when you look around the league, we've one of the weaker managers of the top teams with the exception of Arteta. Spurs to recruit too

Drumpot wrote: »

There is no benchmark for "this group of players" though. This is the problem. Will a different manager automatically equate to "better" ? We dont know is the honest answer. For all of the question marks over Ole, is there a chance he is the right man at the right time to make this squad work ? Maybe, I do not know, but I wouldnt presume either way.

City will finish in mid 80 points. Is that a good points tally for a squad of that talent ? They havent played that many more games then United, have had easier runs in the cups and as mentioned they have a far stronger squad to rotatate.

So what is a new manager going to do with this squad ? Tuchel got a manager bounce kind of like Ole, followed by a bit of a blip. Maybe he is a better manager, but hes a very strong squad of players aswell.

One thing that appears to be under estimated is Ole's man management capacity. Its up there with the best of them, there is no doubt in my mind. No in fighting or rumblings in the squad. Seems to be a good team spirit among the players . Some great character shown at time , even though we dont want to keep having to go goals down to show it, but its far better then the team having no fight or capacity to get back into games.

In many regards its been a bit of a roller coaster with Ole, but I have felt more alive and excited by things Under Ole then I probably have under anybody since SAF. Feels like things are moving the right direction on field and that its unreasonable for people to expect more then we have gotten this season.

Some people may quote our low points tally as a poor second finish, but we will finish ahead of last years league winners and in between the champions league finalists. Glass is half full for me. If Ole is supported well in the summer I would hope for a top 4 finish again next season in what will be a very very competitive top 4 challenge. I would be hoping for an easier CL group phase and a QF of the CL. That to me would be progress. Unless there is some crazy signings I do not see how anybody could think any other manager could be doing much better then that.

Mitch Connor

v3ttel wrote: »

6th -> 3th -> 2nd. Closing the gap to the top every year. Not success, but better than constantly missing top 4.

Better recruitment, player development (Greenwood, Shaw, McTominay).

Regardless of people's thoughts about Ole being able to bring us big trophies, the club is going to be much better for his time in charge. It's the first first time that I feel we have a likeable team since Fergie. Still, it obviously has faults, but Christ, it's better than December 2018.

I do think Ole will leave us in a better place squad wise, in terms of quality and attitude, but his tactical and coaching short-comings will cost that squad trophies - as it did on Wednesday. If United want to win trophies, they will need either the best team of footballers every assembled, or a better manager.

It doesn't matter who we sign for the right wing if
- Ole cant see and fix the problem with defending set pieces, it is structural.
- Ole can't see and fix AWB being sucked infield leaving the back post free.
- Ole can't see an fix our inability to move the ball from defence into midfield quickly.
- Ole can't change tactics based on how a game is playing.

duffman13

v3ttel wrote: »

6th -> 3th -> 2nd. Closing the gap to the top every year. Not success, but better than constantly missing top 4.

Better recruitment, player development (Greenwood, Shaw, McTominay).

Regardless of people's thoughts about Ole being able to bring us big trophies, the club is going to be much better for his time in charge. It's the first first time that I feel we have a likeable team since Fergie. Still, it obviously has faults, but Christ, it's better than December 2018.

66 -> 66-> 74pts

Only once before this season in the last 10 or so years would 74pts have gotten second and that was when Leicester won the league.

We've categorically failed in this biggest games under Ole (semi finals/finals)

I will however agree that the club will be left in a better place than he found it tbh

Pussyhands

Mitch Connor wrote: »

BuT We haVE trIEd bIg NaMes BefoRE

When people say this about our massive sample size of 2 "proven" managers, they never seem to take the same approach with players.

By the same token, if we've signed Sanchez/Di Maria/Lukaku etc and they've failed, shouldn't we also not look to sign Haaland, Sancho, Kane etc?

Big name signings didn't work, so now we should go for Championship signings instead.

Drumpot

duffman13 wrote: »

From the below, I dont think a different manager will necessarily make a different but I do think a better manager will. Do you think a better manager than Ole exists and if so, would that manager do a better job if put in place. I think the answer is Yes to both to be honest. There's always variables but Ole I don't believe is the man to bring us forward.

I've always liked him and wasn't against the appointment after the caretaker gig. However I'm looking at us now and when you look around the league, we've one of the weaker managers of the top teams with the exception of Arteta. Spurs to recruit too

Hold on a second:

I actually said

Will a different manager automatically equate to "better" ? We dont know is the honest answer.

You seemed to interpret as

The narrative that no manager could get better from this team is ridiculous to be honest.

I didn’t say that.

You see your not interpreting what I am saying the way it’s intended Duffman (not having a go btw). The issue seems to be that some of you think of a person doesn’t think a manager with a better CV will guarantee better, we are somehow saying that we shouldn’t bother doing it. That’s not what I’m saying, I’m questioning whether the issues at the club may make this normal presumption redundant.

It’s not unreasonable to ask how much damage the structure of the club and owners apathetic approach to success may be having on the squad and managers capacity to do their job well. I’ve said it before, maybe Ole is not the manager we want but the one we need to make the mess of a club work.

I get the impression it’s easier for some of you to presume superior manager = superior results cause that happens at other clubs. Well I hope you are right but I guess we won’t know because jose is the best and most qualified manager we have had to date and we all know how that worked out.

Drumpot

Pussyhands wrote: »

When people say this about our massive sample size of 2 "proven" managers, they never seem to take the same approach with players.

By the same token, if we've signed Sanchez/Di Maria/Lukaku etc and they've failed, shouldn't we also not look to sign Haaland, Sancho, Kane etc?

Big name signings didn't work, so now we should go for Championship signings instead.

Nope, we should make sure the players are coming for the right reasons and we aren’t just signing them because we can. You guys are now not just misinterpreting (or not understanding the point) you are making up imaginary stuff nobody has said.

Mitch Connor

Pussyhands wrote: »

Big name signings didn't work, so now we should go for Championship signings instead.

Nah, I'd say James is a dud so we should only sign players from Sporting Lisbon. Ronaldo, Nani and Bruno - thats a good record.

Liam O

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Nah, I'd say James is a dud so we should only sign players from Sporting Lisbon. Ronaldo, Nani and Bruno - thats a good record.

Well, the squad would be much better if they'd signed Pereira and Raphinha so maybe there's something to that

billyhead

https://twitter.com/ManUtdMEN/status/1399322083566534656/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1399322083566534656%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=

Pussyhands

Drumpot wrote: »

Nope, we should make sure the players are coming for the right reasons and we aren’t just signing them because we can. You guys are now not just misinterpreting (or not understanding the point) you are making up imaginary stuff nobody has said.

What are the right reasons?

DM_7

Who is saying United should not look to improve on managers or players? They should be looking to improve in every way from scouts or nutrition experts to experts in physiology or transfer negotiations.

The conversation point, and that is all it is, of saying Ole out and new manager in is not certain to bring improvements when so many other things are wrong and have to be managed, worked around and overcome.

It is not even saying things won't improve it is just acknowledging other problems a manager will have to deal with that will take time away from focussing on other important work.

Here is another way, I would like Ten Hag to be United's coach. I think he would improve the team play and coaching of the current side would be upgraded.

He would be leaving a strong football operation for a weaker one. How would he deal with that? I would be surprised if United could get him the quality CB, midfield player or striker he would want to help him implement his strategy. That could undermine the level he could achieve.

Pussyhands

DM_7 wrote: »

Who is saying United should not look to improve on managers or players? They should be looking to improve in every way from scouts or nutrition experts to experts in physiology or transfer negotiations.

The conversation point, and that is all it is, of saying Ole out and new manager in is not certain to bring improvements when so many other things are wrong and have to be managed, worked around and overcome.

It is not even saying things won't improve it is just acknowledging other problems a manager will have to deal with that will take time away from focussing on other important work.

Here is another way, I would like Ten Hag to be United's coach. I think he would improve the team play and coaching of the current side would be upgraded.

He would be leaving a strong football operation for a weaker one. How would he deal with that? I would be surprised if United could get him the quality CB, midfield player or striker he would want to help him implement his strategy. That could undermine the level he could achieve.

Manager is the one that can impact the quality of the players the most, with coaching, tactics etc.

Manager turnover is far more frequent than owner turnover. (how many managers were changed in the PL in the last year compared to owners?)

If Ole was achieving more than the sum of their parts with the squad then you couldn't complain. But he's not.

He's getting the same results Mourinho got, scoring just about more goals, conceding more goals, less trophies and having spent 300 odd million on top of Mourinhos team.

Like you can talk about squads but have a look at Liverpools bench on matchday 1 when they had a fully fit squad:

Fabinho
Milner
Jones
Minamino
Origi
Matip

Our bench is way better:

Martial
Mata
Donny
Bailly
Fred
James

DM_7

Pussyhands wrote: »

Manager is the one that can impact the quality of the players the most, with coaching, tactics etc.

Manager turnover is far more frequent than owner turnover. (how many managers were changed in the PL in the last year compared to owners?)

If Ole was achieving more than the sum of their parts with the squad then you couldn't complain. But he's not.

He's getting the same results Mourinho got, scoring just about more goals, conceding more goals, less trophies and having spent 300 odd million on top of Mourinhos team.

Like you can talk about squads but have a look at Liverpools bench on matchday 1 when they had a fully fit squad:

Fabinho
Milner
Jones
Minamino
Origi
Matip

Our bench is way better:

Martial
Mata
Donny
Bailly
Fred
James

You post is one of the reasons I am trying to highlight the cautionary note as too much detail will result in arguing over minute details.

I could say Ole spending 300m and saying he built on Jose's side is not accurate. 75million of what Jose had in Lukaku is now at Inter Milan. 400k a week in Sanchez is there. Herrera is at PSG. I could go on and have been through the level of changes but that would deflect from the points I am trying to make.

While I don't think Ole is going anywhere I would be happy for United to look to improve on the manager.

I am not saying Ole should be kept and that a better manager should not be sought.

I am saying I don't agree that a change will certainly improve things as the people making the change will still be making the same mistakes including who they pick as manager. That does not mean no changes should happen, it is just saying it might not be as good as hoped/expected due to other club problems.

The_Kew_Tour

They're no need to be paying more then 50million on a player unless he is world class top of the range. Plenty of value out there.

I hope we don't spend all summer trying bargain to get a Declan Rice or Sancho.

We don't need spend 300million. Invest sensibly.

billyhead

I'm warming to the idea of Ronaldo coming back for 1 or 2 seasons to play on the RW. Amad could be mentored by him.

Pussyhands

DM_7 wrote: »

You post is one of th reasons I am trying to highlight the cautionary note as too much detail will result in arguing over minute details.

I could say Ole spending 300m and saying he built on Jose's side is not accurate. 75million of what Jose had in Lukaku is now at Inter Milan. 400k a week in Sanchez is there. Herrera is at PSG. I could go on and have been through the level of changes but that would deflect from the points I am trying to make.

While I don't think Ole is going anywhere I would be happy for United to look to improve on the manager.

I am not saying Ole should be kept and that a better manager should not be sought.

I am saying I don't agree that a change will certainly improve things as the people making the change will still be making the same mistakes including who they pick as manager. That does not mean no changes should happen, it is just saying it might not be as good as hoped/expected due to other club problems.

Ok, I'll give you 65m back then as Lukaku did bring in a good sum but he could have kept Sanchez if he wanted.

No one is saying we're guaranteed to be better with a new manager. No one can ever guarantee that. I can say I want Poch, he could turn out to be worse than Ole, but the potential benefits outweigh the potential risks, for me. You make a calculated decision based on the qualities of a manager and the likelihood of what they'll bring.

Pussyhands

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

They're no need to be paying more then 50million on a player unless he is world class top of the range. Plenty of value out there.

I hope we don't spend all summer trying bargain to get a Declan Rice or Sancho.

We don't need spend 300million. Invest sensibly.

Yes, there's always another gem out there ready to be unearthed.

No one knew who Haaland was 2 or 3 years ago.

Mitch Connor

Evra.....

https://twitter.com/jonnyescott/status/1399331159360815105

Rings a little hollow when they are winning titles but fook it, Evra is a lovable nutter.

beno619

DM_7 wrote: »

Managing Ed and Co was a quick way to describe the off field lack of direction and football planning that goes on at United and that a Man Utd manager has to manage the fall out of that.

I won't qoute all of that but I appreciate you attempting to explain your position.

Im still not seeing what successful management of Ed and co means and how it's been done better than previous managers, you've pointed out that he's handled the Pogba situation well.

beno619

DM_7 wrote: »

.

I could say Ole spending 300m and saying he built on Jose's side is not accurate. 75million of what Jose had in Lukaku is now at Inter Milan. 400k a week in Sanchez is there. Herrera is at PSG. I could go on and have been through the level of changes but that would deflect from the points I am trying to make.

With the exception of Herrera who sanctioned those outgoings ? Who decided he didn't need Lukaku, who thought it would be better to pay Sanchez's wages for inter rather than have him has an option ?

DM_7

Pussyhands wrote: »

Ok, I'll give you 65m back then as Lukaku did bring in a good sum but he could have kept Sanchez if he wanted.

No one is saying we're guaranteed to be better with a new manager. No one can ever guarantee that. I can say I want Poch, he could turn out to be worse than Ole, but the potential benefits outweigh the potential risks, for me. You make a calculated decision based on the qualities of a manager and the likelihood of what they'll bring.

I 100% agree with this.

duffman13

Drumpot wrote: »

Hold on a second:

I actually said



You seemed to interpret as



I didn’t say that.

You see your not interpreting what I am saying the way it’s intended Duffman (not having a go btw). The issue seems to be that some of you think of a person doesn’t think a manager with a better CV will guarantee better, we are somehow saying that we shouldn’t bother doing it. That’s not what I’m saying, I’m questioning whether the issues at the club may make this normal presumption redundant.

It’s not unreasonable to ask how much damage the structure of the club and owners apathetic approach to success may be having on the squad and managers capacity to do their job well. I’ve said it before, maybe Ole is not the manager we want but the one we need to make the mess of a club work.

I get the impression it’s easier for some of you to presume superior manager = superior results cause that happens at other clubs. Well I hope you are right but I guess we won’t know because jose is the best and most qualified manager we have had to date and we all know how that worked out.

Fair enough - Apologies If I am misinterpreting what you are saying. I get where you are coming from but the bolded piece is important. Forget CVs but a better, more tactically astute manager would do better with the squad in situ as it is. Yes there needs to be changes but our current manager is in my opinion not maximising the current squad at all. We dont look as dull as we did under Jose or LVG, which seems to be the marker for some as progress. We also look pretty toothless at times and two seasons on the run we finished with a whimper.

Purchases - 2020/21 season

Donny - Telles - Amad - Pellestri - Cavani

All signed last summer. Only Cavani has had a significant impact. Cavani himself only really started to get game time once Martial was out injured. Ole was at the helm for all of these. Donny and Telles were hardly trusted in the cups even to be honest. Amad and Pellestri, grand for the future so can hold judgement.

2019/20

Maguire - James - Fernandes - AWB - Ighalo
Fernandes obviously the stand out here. Beyond most of our wildest expectations on how he would succeed. Maguire and AWB have arguably gotten worse since their arrivals. AWB in particular is one that is regularly mentioned for an upgrade at £31 million. James bar one hot spell hasnt featured all that often.

Squad management

Outside the first 11 - James, Williams, Telles, Tuanzebe/Bailly, Donny would all be back ups for Rashford, AWB, Shaw, Maguire/Lindeloff, Pogba/Fernandes

James played - 900mins (Most of which was over a single month)
Williams - 186 mins
Telles - 691 mins (Granted Shaw has been outstanding but the majority of his mins came when shaw was injured, not rested) Between end of December and start of May he played 82 premier league mins.
Tuanzebe - 400 mins
Bailly - 900mins (Majority of which were when Lindeloff was injured and later Maguire)
Donny - 511 mins for a £40m player

What I am saying is he doesnt used the squad and players he has bought himself. James played in the 6-2 win against Leeds and had a great game. He played 80 odd mins over the next two - three months.

Mitch Connor

The issue with previous managerial failures and squad recruitment have also been down to the ethos of the manager.

The throughline in style between LVG, Mourinho and Ole simply doesn't exist. moyes didn't have time to imprint a style via signings. LVG also had no time to bed in prior to signings being made.

There was no long term cohesion between the players being signed and the manager(s) in place.

you would hope that if Ole was sacked, the manager brought in would be done so with an eye to the players and balance of the current squad, so that they aren't ripping it up and starting over with regards to any squad plan in place.

Ie. If we sign Sancho in the summer, we don't sack ole and replace him with a manager that plays a diamond or 5 at the back.