Manchester United Teamtalk/Transfer/Gossip 23/24 - [New Thread Available]

All_in_Flynn

Liam O wrote: »

What does Rice do better than Fred or McTominay? He plays in their position and still needs another defensive player beside him seemingly.

Why would West Ham sell their most valuable asset for 50 odd million? They make twice that every year from TV.

Most things. On the intangible stuff, he has a better first touch, reads the game better, has a much higher ceiling, looks a natural leader and his profile suits us. He's better on the ball than both. A better tackler and is excellent in the air. He rarely gets forward for West Ham but he's a good dribbler and a powerful runner when he does.

Forget about whether or not he can play as a sole holding midfielder or not for a moment. Is he better in a partnership than either Fred or McTominay? For me the answer is undoubtedly yes.

StringerBell

S.M.B. wrote: »

Probably not when viewed from the perspective of a United fan looking at a proposed target. I guess for a minute I didn't have my United hat on and thought it was a little harsh for such a critique to be brought up yesterday.

A young lad had just made his major tournament debut as a DM in a 1-0 victory against the previous world cup finalists and I come on here and it's all 'Rice is nothing more than an average player up against average opposition!'. I'm curious to see how he get's on throughout the tournament. My major takeaway from the game was how the pairing of Rice and Phillips did very well as a combination.

Interesting that Fred played last night in a more forward position on the left of a midfield 3 with Casemiro in behind him.

Yeah Fred's not a DM, we only have one in the squad and he doesn't have the legs for it anymore.

StringerBell

All_in_Flynn wrote: »

Most things. On the intangible stuff, he has a better first touch, reads the game better, has a much higher ceiling, looks a natural leader and his profile suits us. He's better on the ball than both. A better tackler and is excellent in the air. He rarely gets forward for West Ham but he's a good dribbler and a powerful runner when he does.

Forget about whether or not he can play as a sole holding midfielder or not for a moment. Is he better in a partnership than either Fred or McTominay? For me the answer is undoubtedly yes.

The thing is, considering the lambasting Fred gets just saying he's better than Fred isn't actually saying all that much is it? Is the idea of bringing in a DM not that he can play the role? If not why look at a DM like Rice at all? Like how can you forget about the entire reason your identifying the player?

Anyway, the point is. Whether he is an upgrade on Fred or McTominay isn't actually the issue, apparently so many players would be an upgrade, its whether Rice is the man to come in and take that midfield to another level, pretty much on his own in terms of looking after the defensive side of things. Its a tall order, being a better option in the squad than Fred isn't exactly the bar.

All_in_Flynn

StringerBell wrote: »

The thing is, considering the lambasting Fred gets just saying he's better than Fred isn't actually saying all that much is it? Is the idea of bringing in a DM not that he can play the role? If not why look at a DM like Rice at all? Like how can you forget about the entire reason your identifying the player?

Anyway, the point is. Whether he is an upgrade on Fred or McTominay isn't actually the issue, apparently so many players would be an upgrade, its whether Rice is the man to come in and take that midfield to another level, pretty much on his own in terms of looking after the defensive side of things. Its a tall order, being a better option in the squad than Fred isn't exactly the bar.

I haven't put forward Rice as a signing I'd like to see just because he is 'better' than Fred. I'd like to see him signed because I think he is developing into an excellent player and is already considerably better than either of Fred or McTominay.

The poster I replied to has a different opinion on Pogba than I do, and doesn't think he can play in a midfield 2. I disagree but was just making the point that even if he was to be paired with either Fred or McTominay, he would improve our team considerably.

To clarify, I think Rice can play the DM position on his own. He already has all the attributes to play the position and I think he's getting better. I like Bissouma too for what it's worth. Would prefer either of those two over Ndidi but I recognise all three would be improvements on what we have.

DM_7

Rice had a relatively easy task v Croatia.

Recycle possession to the defence and cover on front of the CBs. The full backs did not get forward much so he rarely had to cover form them. He made little to no progressive passes in the game.

UEFA stats say he had 0 passes to Sterling, 1 to Kane, 2 to Mount and 2 to Foden.

But most of England's play was in line with that across the team. His performances for England have to be viewed in context of his role and the teams goals/tactics on the day. He did what was needed.

Personally I think United need a ball dominant player rather than a stopper. United need a player who can pass from deeper positions to get the team moving forward against sides sitting back. In those games United are most at risk of conceding during a transition but learning to defend or stop well in the transition phase is an easier task than getting a player who passes well and in a progressive way.

Jorginho for example at Chelsea moves the ball around throughout the team and provides a strong base for the attack, he does not just look for a handy pass back to the CBs.

StringerBell

What areas do you think Rice or Bissouma would be a better option than Ndidi out of curiousity?

Regarding the last bit, it reads as in just comparing him to either Fred or McTominay which wouldn't be the bar surely but fair enough I can see you were just responding to a direct comparison question.

We won't agree on Rice I suppose as I haven't seen any of this excellent player potential, good one no doubt and Premier League standard for sure. We also won't agree on Pogba in a 2 man midfield apparently but thats neither here nor there I guess.

As DM alludes to, the type of DM we actually need I think is a Busquets type.

TRC10

DM_7 wrote: »

Rice had a relatively easy task v Croatia.

Recycle possession to the defence and cover on front of the CBs. The full backs did not get forward much so he rarely had to cover form them. He made little to no progressive passes in the game.

UEFA stats say he had 0 passes to Sterling, 1 to Kane, 2 to Mount and 2 to Foden.

But most of England's play was in line with that across the team. His performances for England have to be viewed in context of his role and the teams goals/tactics on the day. He did what was needed.

Personally I think United need a ball dominant player rather than a stopper. United need a player who can pass from deeper positions to get the team moving forward against sides sitting back. In those games United are most at risk of conceding during a transition but learning to defend or stop well in the transition phase is an easier task than getting a player who passes well and in a progressive way.

Jorginho for example at Chelsea moves the ball around throughout the team and provides a strong base for the attack, he does not just look for a handy pass back to the CBs.

Ruben Neves
Ruben Neves
Ruben Neves

StringerBell

Some paper talking about Bruno lobbying for United to sign Neves. In the spirit of transfer muppetry, give the man what he wants!

GSPfan

Honestly i just want someone signed that can break up McFred. That midfield pairing is detrimental to our forwards as we are effectively playing with a man less in attack.

Declan Rice would have to be available for 50 million and also express his wishes to play for us before I’d consider that a good deal. And I’ve been saying we should sign him, I rate him, but not for anything over 50 million.

If Neves is available for that reported price then I’d be all over that. Ideally I think we spend wisely on midfield this year and go all out for Bellingham next season. He’s going to be unreal.

S.M.B.

I'm curious to see if Southgate goes with a Rice / Bellingham partnership against Scotland as I think it could be a quality duo, even with a combined age of ~20.

I am assuming we will be interested in Bellingham whenever he feels it's time for his next move.

larchielads

Cavani signs one year contract, there goes any chance ofvgettin in a startin centre forward as in kane or haaland

StringerBell

GSPfan wrote: »

Honestly i just want someone signed that can break up McFred. That midfield pairing is detrimental to our forwards as we are effectively playing with a man less in attack.

Declan Rice would have to be available for 50 million and also express his wishes to play for us before I’d consider that a good deal. And I’ve been saying we should sign him, I rate him, but not for anything over 50 million.

If Neves is available for that reported price then I’d be all over that. Ideally I think we spend wisely on midfield this year and go all out for Bellingham next season. He’s going to be unreal.

Not so sure I'd agree with that tbh, when we play with a striker and Bruno, and any of Pogba, Rashford, Greenwood, Martial etc out wide they have very little in terms of defensive duties and then you add in Shaw and (theoretically) AWB to the attacking mix, and you are left with a solid centre of the park in case things break down, you see this in many situations where our attack breaks down a team can still get at us down the side but not really through the middle because of that base.

I think Ole is happy enough with two men there freeing up so many others to attack having seen his tactical approach for a couple of years now - it would take one hell of a player to come in and do the job both of them do, cover that ground and allow the total freedom Bruno has to play as far forward as he likes or even Rashford or Greenwood in terms of knowing there are bodies there to mop up behind them. One man doing that job isn't going to work I think so either a change in tactical approach is needed or just simply an upgrade to either Fred or McTominay which I think is more realistic, to partner the other and be able to dominate the ball from deeper positions and pick passes through the lines.

StringerBell

larchielads wrote: »

Cavani signs one year contract, there goes any chance ofvgettin in a startin centre forward as in kane or haaland

He agreed the extension a while back so not much changed there. We still need a number 9.

Liam O

GSPfan wrote: »

Honestly i just want someone signed that can break up McFred. That midfield pairing is detrimental to our forwards as we are effectively playing with a man less in attack.

Declan Rice would have to be available for 50 million and also express his wishes to play for us before I’d consider that a good deal. And I’ve been saying we should sign him, I rate him, but not for anything over 50 million.

If Neves is available for that reported price then I’d be all over that. Ideally I think we spend wisely on midfield this year and go all out for Bellingham next season. He’s going to be unreal.

How many attackers do you think United should have on the pitch at once? Are the full backs going to cover the holes left by nobody being there or are you happy for a situation like what happened against Istanbul last season to be more commonplace?

City are the only team who play with what you could call 5 attacking players. Even then it's to do with them being the hardest working team in the league. Liverpool's success built on similar. United's best performances the last few seasons were with Fred and McT and this is because they are willing to put themselves above the team. They looked good the first half of the season but without adequate rotation options were no doubt running on fumes the rest of the season.

Now should there be midfielders brought in for different options and rotation? Yes obviously. Are Fred and McT the big bad stopping this team from romping home with the league? I'm not so sure.

billyhead

Veratti would be the ideal signing for that DM slot however it's completely unrealistic getting him from PSG.

Whatsisname

[url]

https://twitter.com/utdreport/status/1404722306669289472?s=21[/url]

y0ssar1an22

henderson pulls out of english squad.

FourFourRED

Dean Henderson withdrawn from the England squad with a hip injury.

beakerjoe

TRC10 wrote: »

Ruben Neves
Ruben Neves
Ruben Neves

Id take Neves over Rice all day.

Rice hasnt the passing skills to be a top tier defensive mid. Yes he can break up play, but a top club needs more. Someone that can positively contribute going forward, not just winning the ball and playing it sideways.

beakerjoe

billyhead wrote: »

Veratti would be the ideal signing for that DM slot however it's completely unrealistic getting him from PSG.

Pogba swap deal perhaps.

Mitch Connor

Henderson out of th England squad with a hip injury. Shame for him, but was unlikely to play in the comp.

Mitch Connor

beakerjoe wrote: »

Pogba swap deal perhaps.

i'd love that, or for Marquinhos. Either would be superb signings for United, in areas of need.

But as said, it is utterly unrealistic that we could get either off PSG.

The Big Easy

So the consistent talk is that Soumare is going to Leicester for the while not paltry, reasonable sum of £23m. He's just helped Lille beat PSG to the title and is very highly rated by all accounts.

He's the kind of signing I'd like us to make but we never seem to. You'd hope the club has done their due diligence on him and just don't fancy him for whatever reason, but just as likely is that we'll be sniffing around next summer at crazy prices.

Can't say I've seen much of him myself, but he has been mentioned here a few times as the kind of player we're missing in the middle.

Personally I'd prefer we take a chance on someone like him than blow most of the budget on Rice, who is imo as has been said, a middle of the road Premier league midfielder

The Big Easy

The Big Easy wrote: »

So the consistent talk is that Soumare is going to Leicester for the while not paltry, reasonable sum of £23m. He's just helped Lille beat PSG to the title and is very highly rated by all accounts.

He's the kind of signing I'd like us to make but we never seem to. You'd hope the club has done their due diligence on him and just don't fancy him for whatever reason, but just as likely is that we'll be sniffing around next summer at crazy prices.

Can't say I've seen much of him myself, but he has been mentioned here a few times as the kind of player we're missing in the middle.

Personally I'd prefer we take a chance on someone like him than blow most of the budget on Rice, who is imo as has been said, a middle of the road Premier league midfielder

Honestly with leicesters scouting history he's probably amazing

limnam

:pac: https://twitter.com/goal/status/1404716751988928515

Lord TSC

https://www.manutd.com/en/news/detail/man-utd-legend-cristiano-ronaldo-to-make-history-with-portugal-at-euro-2020

United posting stories about Ronaldo's press conference at the Euros, including about he doesn't know what his future holds. Interesting to see us posting stories about players who aren't actually United players....

Mitch Connor

Thought this was an interesting analysis of the McFred problem.

https://maramperninety.medium.com/the-unbearable-dullness-of-manchester-uniteds-double-pivot-d55216d02648

TheG0AT

Lord TSC wrote:

United posting stories about Ronaldo's press conference at the Euros, including about he doesn't know what his future holds. Interesting to see us posting stories about players who aren't actually United players....

Don't do it to yourself...

It's the hope that will kill you

PARlance

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Thought this was an interesting analysis of the McFred problem.

https://maramperninety.medium.com/the-unbearable-dullness-of-manchester-uniteds-double-pivot-d55216d02648

Good read, I like both but the two of them shouldn't be starters if we're looking to challenge. They would be squad/speciality players in a really strong team.

While both are obviously different, they're a bit samey... I don't think Rice is the player to buy myself, he's similar enough (or not different enough) to the two of them in many ways.

~Rebel~

limnam wrote: »

:pac: https://twitter.com/goal/status/1404716751988928515

I love this, fair play to him.

Christ though, it must be incredibly mentally draining to always be hyper-aware of all the little ways people are trying to take advantage of your presence.

Ronaldo does seem to be someone who sees literally everything happening everywhere, on or off the field, and processes the right response instantly. Seems to have incredible awareness and speed of thought.

Zeek12

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I love this, fair play to him.

Christ though, it must be incredibly mentally draining to always be hyper-aware of all the little ways people are trying to take advantage of your presence.

Ronaldo does seem to be someone who sees literally everything happening everywhere, on or off the field, and processes the right response instantly. Seems to have incredible awareness and speed of thought.

To be honest, this is so blatantly obvious you couldn't NOT see it! :pac:

Literally every pre-match and post match interview I've seen at these Euros, those two bottles of Coca-cola are sat right there in the exact same position.

Even the guys in the RTE studio were making a joke about it the other night.

The_Kew_Tour

Fair play to Ronaldo. Water is the way to go.

~Rebel~

Zeek12 wrote: »

To be honest, this is so blatantly obvious you couldn't NOT see it! :pac:

Literally every pre-match and post match interview I've seen at these Euros, those two bottles of Coca-cola are sat right there in the exact same position.

Even the guys in the RTE studio were making a joke about it the other night.

True, but I bet this is just one of a thousand little ways in a day that people/sponsors are trying to pull a fast one.

And even beyond that, despite moving them - the very fact that he's moved them is enough to get Coke a whole tonne of publicity. It's not necessarily good publicity - but neither is it bad, and we all have a whole bunch more little subconscious 'coke' mentions in our heads. (I'll stop saying Coke now. Coke.)

Whatsisname

limnam wrote: »

:pac: https://twitter.com/goal/status/1404716751988928515

As a Pepsi Max man, I stand with Ronaldo.

Mitch Connor

~Rebel~ wrote: »

True, but I bet this is just one of a thousand little ways in a day that people/sponsors are trying to pull a fast one.

And even beyond that, despite moving them - the very fact that he's moved them is enough to get Coke a whole tonne of publicity. It's not necessarily good publicity - but neither is it bad, and we all have a whole bunch more little subconscious 'coke' mentions in our heads. (I'll stop saying Coke now. Coke.)

I doubt it is a 'fast one' I would guess at all press conferences you will see a couple of coca-cola bottles front and centre - as they are a main sponsor of the comp. The bottle of water he grabbed is probably Deep River Rock.

~Rebel~

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I doubt it is a 'fast one' I would guess at all press conferences you will see a couple of coca-cola bottles front and centre - as they are a main sponsor of the comp. The bottle of water he grabbed is probably Deep River Rock.

Ok, yeah, I'm playing a bit fast and loose with terminology for emphasis.

No, it's not pulling a fast one in the realist sense, but it is opportunism. I mean, that's why you do these sponsorships - to get tonnes of exposure from the broader tournament, and also from players you've not sponsored (or couldn't afford to sponsor, or are already sponsored by a competitor) directly. Ronaldo has turned down big money from soft drinks in the past for instance, so things like this have a touch of the 'trojan horse' to getting something resembling an endorsement, or at least visual connection.

But anyway, the point is it must be tiring for someone who clearly does consciously try to protect their brand to walk the minefield of an international tournament with a sponsorship free-for-all.

This sort of thing rears its head every so often, like Mo Salah's issue where one telecoms brand sponsored the team, but he had another personal sponsorship by a different telecoms brand - and the first brand used a team image with Mo front and centre on all their branding, effectively circumventing and devaluing his independent sponsorship. And of course then it all ends up in court. Dealing with all that stuff must just be exhausting.

RobertKK

I would take that Ronaldo chap who plays for Portugal if we could get him.

billyhead

RobertKK wrote: »

I would take that Ronaldo chap who plays for Portugal if we could get him.

He looks a decent player:)

RobertKK

billyhead wrote: »

He looks a decent player:)

he probably has a lot of years in him still.

How did Bruno play?

KH25

Exactly wrote: »

How did Bruno play?

I thought he was fine. Looked lovely enough from what I saw.

https://twitter.com/utdreport/status/1404862190176378881?s=21

Weepsie

If this Pogba shows up, then I welcome him. Great pass by him, despite Ronnie Whelan's nonsense

Rossi IRL

Weepsie wrote: »

If this Pogba shows up, then I welcome him. Great pass by him, despite Ronnie Whelan's nonsense

I like Pogba and want it to work, I just don't think we will ever get this Pogba consistently.

Alot of free space, lower intensity, more time on the ball, playing with players that would mostly all walk into a starting spot on the United team.

Don't know what game Ronnie is watching

pjohnson

Pogba just doesnt care enough. Hes happy out in a 2 man mid for France but NEVER performed in a 2 for us.

Rossi IRL

pjohnson wrote: »

Pogba just doesnt care enough. Hes happy out in a 2 man mid for France but NEVER performed in a 2 for us.

He is playing as the free man in a 3 man midfield with Rabiot and Kante

pjohnson

Rossi IRL wrote: »

He is playing as the free man in a 3 man midfield with Rabiot and Kante

Seemed to be more central beside Kante for the first 30 mins with Rabiot infront. Now has gone right side and Rabiot dropped beside Kante.

Rossi IRL

pjohnson wrote: »

Seemed to be more central beside Kante for the first 30 mins with Rabiot infront. Now has gone right side and Rabiot dropped beside Kante.

Pogba just going wherever he wants. Sometimes central, sometimes left, mostly right now it seems.

wanderer100

pjohnson wrote: »

Pogba just doesnt care enough. Hes happy out in a 2 man mid for France but NEVER performed in a 2 for us.

Lazy comment. The midfield 3 he’s playing with for France in Kante & Rabiot gives him so much more freedom to create and go forward where he’s most effective.

At United , we play a midfield 2 in McFred where Pogba is being forced into the left wing. And when he does play in midfield , Fred, McTominay or Matic are nowhere near the level of Kante .

Until we buy a proper top class CDM such as a Ruben Neves or Declan Rice , we’ll never get the best of Paul Pogba

Rossi IRL

wanderer100 wrote: »

Until we buy a proper top class CDM such as a Ruben Neves or Declan Rice , we’ll never get the best of Paul Pogba

I don't think signing either of those and playing them in a 2 with Pogba will do anything. Just can't see it working out.

I don't think Pogba will ever work in a 2. I used to think it would work but not anymore

y0ssar1an22

one of pogba's problems is that he always over plays it. beat a player tonight up high on the RHS with a good opportunity to cross. he then turned back inside and tried the beat the player again. like why?