Manchester United Teamtalk/Transfer/Gossip 23/24 - [New Thread Available]

Drumpot

The Big Easy wrote: »

I think the club could've genuinely went under (administration) if it wasn't for Ferguson.

I think a lot of people don’t know how much of a risk that leveraged takeover was at the time. 15% interest on some of the loans at the time, that’s how risky some investors saw it. Think it was something like 50+ million a year in interest. So Before United wanted to sign anybody , straight away they had less money every year equivalent to the cost of the most expensive player in the sport at that time. That’s what we instantly got with the glazers taking over, financially hamstrung.

Ah but sure, look at the money spent between the very specific period of 2013- now. Something something Net spend . Something something United had no success until the glazers took over... something something glazers great at marketing the club to toilet duck in Japan.... Something something the club would be nothing without the glazers ... something something football is nothing without the glazers....

Louis Friend

Net spend is the most relevant figure.

Gross spend could be incredibly misleading.

I fail to see what people’s issue with net spend is; it measures what’s being spent on players incrementally.

noodler

Louis Friend wrote: »

Net spend is the most relevant figure.

Gross spend could be incredibly misleading.

I fail to see what people’s issue with net spend is; it measures what’s being spent on players incrementally.

Will be interesting to see if it is a metric some on here go from criticising to championing.

Louis Friend

noodler wrote: »

Will be interesting to see if it is a metric some on here go from criticising to championing.

It’s patently ridiculous to look at gross spend.

United could sell Marcus Rashford to Real Madrid this summer for £120m and then spend £100m on two players.

“We spent £100m on players” would be a ludicrous claim.

Gross spend can be spun; net spend reflects economic reality.

StringerBell

Depends, does your net spend actually reflect net spend or not?

What figures do you include and rule out and why?

Are you using it as an accounting tool or something else?

Net spend, same as most other metrics has both advantages and disadvantages to it. Mostly I just see people play to advantage with it or purely look at transfer fee in/out which is obviously very limited.

The other huge limitation associated with net spend is that people just focus on transfers and more often than not first team transfers.

I wouldn't go overboard with it's ability to tell a "real" story tbh.

Drumpot

Louis Friend wrote: »

It’s patently ridiculous to look at gross spend.

United could sell Marcus Rashford to Real Madrid this summer for £120m and then spend £100m on two players.

“We spent £100m on players” would be a ludicrous claim.

Gross spend can be spun; net spend reflects economic reality.

Net spend on its own is as meaningless metric as Gross spend without any context.

The club is having to spend more since 2013. Why? What happened that has made the club so poor at getting value for money? SAF retiring explains some of this but the levels the club are spending should be more then enough for any manager to comfortably have United comfortably in top 4. How much has Gill leaving effected things? Neville eluded to it himself by saying in 2013 the club lost the border between the football and commercial running of the club. They were merged , instead of being kept seperate and all of a sudden the club makes bad signing after bad signing and regularly leaves deficient holes in the Squad. I’d love to know how Much of that net spend was on players targeted primarily for the better of the team.

This is why I reject the excuse that managers have been our problem. United is spending on the same levels as Barca and Madrid , these clubs are always there or thereabouts regardless of the manager they employ. If a club is well run, the manager at the helm is not as important to success. United has had to spend that much because it’s been so badly run. It’s remarkable how this is being spun into a variable that supposedly shows how good the owners have been.

The Big Easy

StringerBell wrote: »

Depends, does your net spend actually reflect net spend or not?

What figures do you include and rule it and why?

Are you using it as an accounting tool or something else?

Net spend, same as most other metrics has both advantages and disadvantages to it. Mostly I just see people play to advantage with it or purely look at transfer fee in/out which is obviously very limited.

The other huge limitation associated with net spend is that people just focus on transfers and more often than not first team transfers.

I wouldn't go overboard with it's ability to tell a "real" story tbh.

That's exactly it, it's cherry picked at times to suit a narrative, mostly one about not needing to buy trophies.

Like most things in life, it cannot be summed up in one nice little digestible nugget.

What about infrastructure expenditure? But most of all player wages, net spend does not account for player wages, the single biggest expenditure of any club.

Arguably if you could only pick one metric, it would be the players wage bill, but again that by itself doesn't tell everything.

PARlance

abff wrote: »

I don’t think the fact that Liverpool went home yesterday will factor into any decision about whether or not it would be feasible to play the match today. Liverpool is not exactly on the other side of the planet from Manchester.

It's not exactly two pub teams playing a game. They have routines, eating habits, schedules etc all leading up to and on match days... It's not a case of Klopp throwing a text into the group WhatsApp...thumbs up who can be in Manchester in an hour!

Loafing Oaf

PARlance wrote: »

It's not exactly two pub teams playing a game. They have routines, eating habits, schedules etc all leading up to and on match days... It's not a case of Klopp throwing a text into the group WhatsApp...thumbs up who can be in Manchester in an hour!

And what about tv? Sky can't just stick it on at half an hour's notice

Lithium93_

https://twitter.com/lauriewhitwell/status/1389211079088168968

Lithium93_

PARlance wrote: »

It's not exactly two pub teams playing a game. They have routines, eating habits, schedules etc all leading up to and on match days... It's not a case of Klopp throwing a text into the group WhatsApp...thumbs up who can be in Manchester in an hour!

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

And what about tv? Sky can't just stick it on at half an hour's notice

Sometimes people forget the massive effort that goes into broadcasting a game on live TV. It's not quiet so simple. There's hours of work involved, and that's before the presenters/pundits arrive for the game.

martingriff

Lithium93_ wrote: »

https://twitter.com/lauriewhitwell/status/1389211079088168968

The comments on the club working with police to find those responsible for the violence is strange

Agent Coulson

martingriff wrote: »

The comments on the club working with police to find those responsible for the violence is strange

Why?

The area around the Stadium would be heavily cctv'ed by the club and they will of course be working with the police by handing over the recordings.

martingriff

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Why?

The area around the Stadium would be heavily cctv'ed by the club and they will of course be working with the police by handing over the recordings.

Did you not read the tweets replies of club blaming fans what a surprise at all that

Agent Coulson

martingriff wrote: »

Did you not read the tweets replies of club blaming fans what a surprise at all that

Yes the tweet said it will help find those who were involved in criminal damage and violence towards club staff and the police not the peaceful protesters.

Those that caused criminal damage and violence to the staff and the police should be rightful charged.

martingriff

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Yes the tweet said it will help find those who were involved in criminal damage and violence towards club staff and the police not the peaceful protesters.

Those that caused criminal damage and violence to the staff and the police should be rightful charged.

The replies not the tweet itself. It is twitter I supose

abff

martingriff wrote: »

Did you not read the tweets replies of club blaming fans what a surprise at all that

I would expect that the majority of those causing damage were not actual fans but thugs going along for the ride.

Fitz*

Just wondering what are yer thoughts on
the appropriate punishment that Man United will get?

The fans actions caused the biggest PL fixture to be postponed, with potentially more games being forced to be moved as a result of this. That's no light matter that can be glossed over. There has to be a precedent set too in order to prevent this happening again in the future. 3 or more clubs have the potential to be affected with things like relegation and CL spots at risk.

secman

Fitz* wrote: »

Just wondering what are yer thoughts on
the punishment that Man United will get?

The fans actions caused the biggest PL fixture to be postponed, with potentially more games being forced to be moved as a result of this. That's no light matter that can be glossed over. There has to be a precedent set too in order to prevent this happening again in the future. 3 or more clubs have the potential to be affected with things like relegation and CL spots at risk.

Just wondering what are your thoughts on the police not being able to control about 200 people when they are used to controlling 75,000 including at least 2,000 away fans ?

Fitz*

secman wrote: »

Just wondering what are your thoughts on the police not being able to control about 200 people when they are used to controlling 75,000 including at least 2,000 away fans ?

Completely ignoring the question. Well done. I assume you think that there should be no punishment whosoever then. When is the next game going to get postponed? Will there be any more fixtures played at Old Trafford this season or all postponed last minute?

lawred2

abff wrote: »

I would expect that the majority of those causing damage were not actual fans but thugs going along for the ride.

they will be both

jayo26

Fitz* wrote: »

Just wondering what are yer thoughts on
the appropriate punishment that Man United will get?

The fans actions caused the biggest PL fixture to be postponed, with potentially more games being forced to be moved as a result of this. That's no light matter that can be glossed over. There has to be a precedent set too in order to prevent this happening again in the future. 3 or more clubs have the potential to be affected with things like relegation and CL spots at risk.

Im sure they can look back at the outcome of previous stadium troubles in England and use the precedent thats been set in the past for punishing clubs.

secman

Fitz* wrote: »

Completely ignoring the question. Well done. I assume you think that there should be no punishment whosoever then. When is the next game going to get postponed? Will there be any more fixtures played at Old Trafford this season or all postponed last minute?

PL won't deduct points it will set a dangerous precedent that could be manipulated. A potential huge can of worms. They were happy with protesting fans 2 weeks ago.

Proper policing makes sure games go ahead, has been working fine for decades

abff

lawred2 wrote: »

they will be both

I said ‘the majority’ not ‘all’.

Fitz*

secman wrote: »

PL won't deduct points it will set a dangerous precedent that could be manipulated. A potential huge can of worms. They were happy with protesting fans 2 weeks ago.

Those protesting fans did not cause the postponement of 1 game and the movement of other games.

No punishment also sets a very dangerous precedent, especially as it's not the first time Man United fans have broken into a building in the last few weeks. Are all games and training sessions going to be a security risk in the future? Private houses too.

As I said yesterday, I completely understand the reasoning of the protest and I'm sure that the intentions were peaceful at the start. United fans have every right to protest, peacefully, against the Glazers. Outside the stadium, that is all fair game. Chelsea & Arsenal have done that this season and Liverpool had many previously. Outside the stadium being the critical point.

But yesterday's one crossed the line with breaking entry into the stadium causing the postponement of a massive PL fixture. Which needs to be addressed.

adox

The club won’t be punished.

jayo26

adox wrote: »

The club won’t be punished.

Think they need to look at why did the police have to be called after they got into the ground. Its been widely reported and acknowledged that yesterday was the day of protests so they could of expected some unsavoury characters to turn up.

After all these years the policing still aint adequate and that needs to be looked at and an enquiry had alot of it has to come down to blame on the police.

StringerBell

Fitz* wrote: »

Just wondering what are yer thoughts on
the appropriate punishment that Man United will get?

The fans actions caused the biggest PL fixture to be postponed, with potentially more games being forced to be moved as a result of this. That's no light matter that can be glossed over. There has to be a precedent set too in order to prevent this happening again in the future. 3 or more clubs have the potential to be affected with things like relegation and CL spots at risk.

A punishment is extremely unlikely since the decision to postpone was taken unanimously by both clubs and parties involved.

To appease certain.....types, I guess they may issue a nominal fine or something of that order for the security failure at the ground in terms of the protestors getting in but I'd say that's probably a stretch even.

That's about it though, there certainly won't be points deductions or any other fanciful hopes and dreams.

Lithium93_

https://twitter.com/LiamHamilton16/status/1389179878143037445

Fitz*

StringerBell wrote: »

A punishment is extremely unlikely since the decision to postpone was taken unanimously by both clubs and parties involved.

To appease certain.....types, I guess they may issue a nominal fine or something of that order for the security failure at the ground in terms of the protestors getting in but I'd say that's probably a stretch even.

That's about it though, there certainly won't be points deductions or any other fanciful hopes and dreams.

You can't just break into a stadium the day of a game to purposely get it postponed and expect no punishment IMO.

The PL rules state that fan actions can result in punishments up to and including the match opponents being awarded the points.

Bring awarded the points would not be the punishment I would give. But the original question I asked to all Man United fans in this thread was what punishment should be given and by the looks of things, everyone thinks the club and fans should get off Scot free. Do what ye want, when ye want and how ye want. No reprocussions.

Breaking & entry?
Stealing?
Cutting a police officer with a broken bottle?
Postponing a match?

Louis Friend

Not being funny, as obviously they were United fans, but there’s no proof that they were.

It’s not like fans at a match rioting where you can tell where they’re from and as a result the club are clearly to blame.

These were private citizens coming in off the street to break into Old Trafford and cause hassle outside a hotel.

I doubt there’s any legal basis to punish the club; the first thing they’d do is go to court.

If that was the case, United fans could dress up as City or Liverpool fans and head there to cause trouble in order to trigger a sanction.

ngunners

Fitz* wrote: »

You can't just break into a stadium the day of a game to purposely get it postponed and expect no punishment IMO.

The PL rules state that fan actions can result in punishments up to and including the match opponents being awarded the points.

Bring awarded the points would not be the punishment I would give. But the original question I asked to all Man United fans in this thread was what punishment should be given and by the looks of things, everyone thinks the club and fans should get off Scot free. Do what ye want, when ye want and how ye want. No reprocussions.

Breaking & entry?
Stealing?
Cutting a police officer with a broken bottle?
Postponing a match?

Fans who are found guilty of theft or assault or any other crime should be charged accordingly in my opinion.

‘Reprocussions’ for the club should be a fine.

adox

Fitz* wrote: »

You can't just break into a stadium the day of a game to purposely get it postponed and expect no punishment IMO.

The PL rules state that fan actions can result in punishments up to and including the match opponents being awarded the points.

Bring awarded the points would not be the punishment I would give. But the original question I asked to all Man United fans in this thread was what punishment should be given and by the looks of things, everyone thinks the club and fans should get off Scot free. Do what ye want, when ye want and how ye want. No reprocussions.

Breaking & entry?
Stealing?
Cutting a police officer with a broken bottle?
Postponing a match?

The won’t be docked points. The game was called off because of a security issue. The club and team itself could fulfil the fixture so weren’t in any way at fault from that perspective so talk of points being deducted should stop.

Also I’m pretty sure people on here are answering you with what they think will happen. What difference does it make what people “want” to happen? Actually reading back on your op you asked what punishment they will get, so you seem to be moving the goal posts.


There’s a touch of hyperbole about your posts.

pjohnson

Lithium93_ wrote: »

https://twitter.com/LiamHamilton16/status/1389179878143037445

It probably was the most action packed meeting between the sides in years.

Whatsisname

Fair play to Carragher.

https://twitter.com/glitterrach/status/1389254057085313030?s=20

xtal191

Good video

Whatsisname

I did see another video of a guy kicking in a door alright but this just shows the stewards opening the doors.

https://twitter.com/MrStephenHowson/status/1389264967363399691?s=20

Headshot

Whatsisname wrote: »

I did see another video of a guy kicking in a door alright but this just shows the stewards opening the doors.

https://twitter.com/MrStephenHowson/status/1389264967363399691?s=20

Great to see insiders fully behind the fans

but isnt this typical of the media thou, remember the so call protests in front of woodwards house.

there's definitively elements of the press really out to get utd fans

jayo26

So that shows that the fans didnt all break in.... I guess next on the worried rivals list that they need to worry about is the charges of burglary of a corner flag.

beakerjoe

Fitz* wrote: »

You can't just break into a stadium the day of a game to purposely get it postponed and expect no punishment IMO.

The PL rules state that fan actions can result in punishments up to and including the match opponents being awarded the points.

Bring awarded the points would not be the punishment I would give. But the original question I asked to all Man United fans in this thread was what punishment should be given and by the looks of things, everyone thinks the club and fans should get off Scot free. Do what ye want, when ye want and how ye want. No reprocussions.

Breaking & entry?
Stealing?
Cutting a police officer with a broken bottle?
Postponing a match?

Read this post in the voice of Graeme Souness.

Fitz*

jayo26 wrote: »

So that shows that the fans didnt all break in.... I guess next on the worried rivals list that they need to worry about is the charges of burglary of a corner flag.

https://twitter.com/Purple_bin/status/1388904137056792577?s=19

The Big Easy

There's some awful pearl clutching going on by concerned fans of rival teams.

It's a bit sad really, I know I'd be behind any fan movement to remove toxic influences from their club. Like I was for the Hicks and Gillett protests, although I felt the treatment of Hodgson was ott

I'm no fan of violence or its glorification, but let's not kid ourselves action has to be taken at times and not everyone has the luxury of sitting at home condemning it when it does.

Wealth and power is protected by legitimised violence and when people's voices are not heard, sometimes it comes to this.

jayo26

Fitz* wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Purple_bin/status/1388904137056792577?s=19

I didnt say that none broke in..... Think we all know that SOME yobs were there yesterday.

Mr.Crinklewood

jayo26 wrote: »

So that shows that the fans didnt all break in.... I guess next on the worried rivals list that they need to worry about is the charges of burglary of a corner flag.

2.3 point deduction per corner flag.

jayo26

Mr.Crinklewood wrote: »

2.3 point deduction per corner flag.

Thats cheap for a piece of memorabilia.

lawred2

Fitz* wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Purple_bin/status/1388904137056792577?s=19

Chelsea fans

Mr.Crinklewood

jayo26 wrote: »

Thats cheap for a piece of memorabilia.

17 point deduction for your lip son.

BKtje

Fitz* wrote: »

You can't just break into a stadium the day of a game to purposely get it postponed and expect no punishment IMO.

The PL rules state that fan actions can result in punishments up to and including the match opponents being awarded the points.

Bring awarded the points would not be the punishment I would give. But the original question I asked to all Man United fans in this thread was what punishment should be given and by the looks of things, everyone thinks the club and fans should get off Scot free. Do what ye want, when ye want and how ye want. No reprocussions.

Breaking & entry?
Stealing?
Cutting a police officer with a broken bottle?
Postponing a match?

Officially Manchester United PLC are the victims here. Their stadium was broken into, their stadium was vandalised and you want them to be punished? Unfortunately I can't see the victim being punished in any court. Football or otherwise. There might be an inquiry regarding security issues but I think that's as far as it will go.

Violent protestors should have the book thrown at them and non violent may be prosecuted for trespassing depending on what Manchester United PLC want to do in the courts. I am guessing that for non violent protestors that nothing much will happen with regards prosecution.

I guess we shall see.

dave_o_brien

Fitz* wrote: »

Just wondering what are yer thoughts on
the appropriate punishment that Man United will get?

The fans actions caused the biggest PL fixture to be postponed, with potentially more games being forced to be moved as a result of this. That's no light matter that can be glossed over. There has to be a precedent set too in order to prevent this happening again in the future. 3 or more clubs have the potential to be affected with things like relegation and CL spots at risk.

I'll separate this into what I think would be a positive punishment and what I think will happen, but I want to reiterate - I support the fans who peacefully protested up to and including gaining access to the pitch and causing the postponement. I do condemn the individuals who caused criminal damage to 3rd party property and of course, injured any person.

A positive punishment would be calling the match a draw and docking United 15 points. The fans would then know another protest like it and United could write off Europe next year, or conceivably any given year, depriving the Glazers of revenue and participation in prestigious tournaments. If the Glazers were hit where it hurts them (the pocket), they might consider leaving sooner.

What I think will happen is United will be fined for "security issues", which is awful for the protesters and anyone who wants the Glazers to leave. This will legitimise United employing more security (possibly more heavy handed too) which will quell protests and quieten the push for change. It will also legitimise a reduced transfer budget.

jayo26

A breakdown of what Jamie carragher said tonight on MNF vor once i think he got it spot on.

"If you're going to speak about something and you're going to speak about something passionately - and you can have your opinion - back it up with the facts.

"This is nothing to do with where Manchester United are in the league. Yes, there's been a decline, obviously, but this campaign has been going on for a long, long time, from when Manchester United were very, very successful.

"So let's not accuse Manchester United fans of just throwing the toys out the pram because they're not competing with [Manchester] City or in the Champions League, whatever it may be. That is absolute nonsense."

the overall feeling all over uk football is support for united fans while condemning the few louts that went too far. Its only on one or two days online areas and a couple uneducated pundits that people are trying to pedal the results as been the motivation behind it.