Manchester United Teamtalk/Transfer/Gossip 23/24 - [New Thread Available]

Whatsisname

Your Airbag wrote: »

So Chelsea or City to win a CL title. Not much of a choice but I'll take Chelsea as that duck has already been broken.

Lesser of two evils alright. I do feel Chelsea have a better chance of beating City than Madrid would have. Mad Lampard had this side midtable.

The_Kew_Tour

Backing Chelsea in a final? Nah, your fine thanks. I would rather be set on fire.

Father Hernandez

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Backing Chelsea in a final? Nah, your fine thanks. I would rather be set on fire.

Bit extreme! :pac:

The_Kew_Tour

Father Hernandez wrote: »

Bit extreme! :pac:

Anyone over age of 30 backing them in final have short memories Honestly.

Ya its City but least they have a excuse to hate us. Remender Chelsea were a team that celebrated our defeats like they win the league

Beating them in 2008 felt like 2 CLs in one. But that's just me personally and from experience.

paulbok

Your Airbag wrote: »

So Chelsea or City to win a CL title. Not much of a choice but I'll take Chelsea as that duck has already been broken.

John Terry is washing his kit as we speak

S.M.B.

I'm going to take some comfort in the fact that the gap in quality between us and Europe's finest isn't as big as some would think.

The_Kew_Tour

S.M.B. wrote: »

I'm going to take some comfort in the fact that the gap in quality between us and Europe's finest isn't as big as some would think.

We ain't, but unless the Glazers open the cheque book and finally bring in 2 or 3 top quality players, something that we have not done in 14 years then we be talking about a lot of "what ifs" for next few years.

The Big Easy

S.M.B. wrote: »

I'm going to take some comfort in the fact that the gap in quality between us and Europe's finest isn't as big as some would think.

There's not a lot between us and Chelsea alright, if we're still comfortably ahead of them next year, we'll still be improving and challenging for the title.

Liam O

S.M.B. wrote: »

I'm going to take some comfort in the fact that the gap in quality between us and Europe's finest isn't as big as some would think.

It really is. Look at the Chelsea squad. Pulisic would be a nailed on starter at United and doesn't start for them. Havertz and Werner are only improving under Tuchel and they will be a real force next season with a new CB bought. Ziyech there too. You could get down to the likes of Hudson-Odoi and Abraham and they would still be playing more at United than at Chelsea.

United only have 4 forward players worth anything and one is 19 and another 34. The above players for Chelsea are all 21-28. They are miles ahead and that is going to show when they are settled (getting pretty close now). A good CB and they will be up there with City next season.

They have some great midfielders, both technical and grafters. It was only Lampard's mismanagement that has them so low in the league.

City again have players miles ahead up front. I don't think United would be level with these teams if they signed Sancho and Grealish but that is what it would take to get close to their squad depth up front and even then you'd need a striker.

S.M.B.

I can't argue that United's squad depth is on the same level as the likes of Chelsea & Manchester City right now and completely agree that unless there is a major summer spending spree then we are likely to start next season chasing those two.

I was more alluding to the fact that over recent years I continuously hear people say that the standard of the PL is quite poor meaning that United are struggling for success in a sub par league.

The reality is that 4 separate PL teams have now made the CL final in the past 3 seasons. Yes, we are somewhat playing catch up when it comes to competing with those PL teams over the course of a season but it's not like there's this additional tier of European clubs who await us in the Champions League like there would have been in previous years.

Will I Am Not

S.M.B. wrote: »

I can't argue that United's squad depth is on the same level as the likes of Chelsea & Manchester City right now and completely agree that unless there is a major summer spending spree then we are likely to start next season chasing those two.

I was more alluding to the fact that over recent years I continuously hear people say that the standard of the PL is quite poor meaning that United are struggling for success in a sub par league.

The reality is that 4 separate PL teams have now made the CL final in the past 3 seasons. Yes, we are somewhat playing catch up when it comes to competing with those PL teams over the course of a season but it's not like there's this additional tier of European clubs who await us in the Champions League like there would have been in previous years.

The standard of football in general is quite poor. City are a good side, Chelsea are only decent. Both are a distance behind the really great CL sides we’ve seen over the years.

Mitch Connor

Going to be very interesting to see how Ole manages the team over the next week.

We just need to not get a hiding tonight - and I would put more importance on the Villa and Leicester games than Liverpool to be honest. Espeically the leicester game in terms of how it could effect finishing second.

There are going to have to be a number of changes and a lot of rotation.

Roma - Draw
Villa - Win
leicester - Win
Liverpool - draw

Would be a very good return for the week, imo.

Louis Friend

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Going to be very interesting to see how Ole manages the team over the next week.

We just need to not get a hiding tonight - and I would put more importance on the Villa and Leicester games than Liverpool to be honest. Espeically the leicester game in terms of how it could effect finishing second.

There are going to have to be a number of changes and a lot of rotation.

Roma - Draw
Villa - Win
leicester - Win
Liverpool - draw

Would be a very good return for the week, imo.

Nah, my strong preference would be for:

Roma - Draw
Villa - Win
Leicester - Lose
Liverpool - Win

It’s a shame we’re not playing Chelsea and West Ham so we could lose those as well…;)

Kerrydude1981

I struggle to watch PL games now or any league for that matter, I watch the Utd games and then after that I might only watch a half of other games where as before I could sit down and easily watch a game between two low in the table sides,

I find the game is gone backwards a bit and there is no real needle in it anymore, there is very few players playing on the edge now, everything is tapered down and then you have VAR making decisions like a finger or a toe offside and the way the refs handle it all annoys me, just make the VAR signal and go over to the sideline monitor and make the decision, speed it up a bit.

So now I find myself looking at old clips of games on YouTube, maybe I'm trying to recapture my youth :D

S.M.B.

Will I Am Not wrote: »

The standard of football in general is quite poor. City are a good side, Chelsea are only decent. Both are a distance behind the really great CL sides we’ve seen over the years.

But the standard of the PL isn't particularly poor relative to other European leagues right now which was my original point.

The_Kew_Tour

If the United teams under Fergie were playing now, we have 3 or 4 CL.

Same can be said for the other great sides back then. German, Italian, Spanish and even French football always had some good sides back then.

Take Inter. The Inter Milan side from late 90s would win CL now and back then they were not the outright best side in Italy. Now they are and it be hard to see them get close to it.

S.M.B.

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Roma - Draw
Villa - Win
leicester - Win
Liverpool - draw

Would be a very good return for the week, imo.

That's a very big ask but not out of the realms of possibility either.

Lithium93_

Someone mentioned what if's, one big one is what if United hadn't been knocked out in the Champions League group stages and forced down into the Europa League knockouts, that still gnaws at me. It could just as easily have been United in the Champions League final.

Surely one of the objectives next season along with the usual suspects, when they get back into the Champions League, is to avoid a group stage elimination.

PARlance

Liam O wrote: »

It really is. Look at the Chelsea squad. Pulisic would be a nailed on starter at United and doesn't start for them. Havertz and Werner are only improving under Tuchel and they will be a real force next season with a new CB bought. Ziyech there too. You could get down to the likes of Hudson-Odoi and Abraham and they would still be playing more at United than at Chelsea.

United only have 4 forward players worth anything and one is 19 and another 34. The above players for Chelsea are all 21-28. They are miles ahead and that is going to show when they are settled (getting pretty close now). A good CB and they will be up there with City next season.

They have some great midfielders, both technical and grafters. It was only Lampard's mismanagement that has them so low in the league.

City again have players miles ahead up front. I don't think United would be level with these teams if they signed Sancho and Grealish but that is what it would take to get close to their squad depth up front and even then you'd need a striker.

A CB would be good for them but they'll be scary if they get a natural goalscorer. I'd be very afraid to see them go in for Haaland or even to pick up someone like Aguero. They would have won 4 or 5 nil with a top quality CF last night.

Bleating Lamb

These 3 games in 5 days not good for us FPL players with Utd players:)

Hard to see any player start all 3 games and play 60 mins...Maquire probably most likely.

S.M.B.

Lithium93_ wrote: »

Someone mentioned what if's, one big one is what if United hadn't been knocked out in the Champions League group stages and forced down into the Europa League knockouts, that still gnaws at me. It could just as easily have been United in the Champions League final.

Surely one of the objectives next season along with the usual suspects, when they get back into the Champions League, is to avoid a group stage elimination.

Am I right in thinking winning the Europa League would see us top seeds in the group stages next year? That's a big incentive. Although, based on recent luck we'd still manage to find ourselves in the group of death regardless.

StringerBell

Bleating Lamb wrote: »

These 3 games in 5 days not good for us FPL players with Utd players:)

Hard to see any player start all 3 games and play 60 mins...Maquire probably most likely.

Harry will just stay on the pitch between home games.

PARlance

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Going to be very interesting to see how Ole manages the team over the next week.

We just need to not get a hiding tonight - and I would put more importance on the Villa and Leicester games than Liverpool to be honest. Espeically the leicester game in terms of how it could effect finishing second.

There are going to have to be a number of changes and a lot of rotation.

Roma - Draw
Villa - Win
leicester - Win
Liverpool - draw

Would be a very good return for the week, imo.

I think Ole will rest tonight, full strength Vs Villa, rest Vs Leicester, full strength Vs Pool.

A win Vs Villa turns the Leicester game into a don't lose. I.e if we rest a few and draw, we're 7 points ahead with 3 to play. Perfect game to sit back a bit and try to hit them on the break, a game where Matic,Telles, James could all come in. Leicester will be doing extremely well to get 9 from their final 3 in any case.

I hope he goes full tilt Vs Liverpool. Was very annoyed to see Cavani wasn't starting for the postponed game though.

malinheader

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

I struggle to watch PL games now or any league for that matter, I watch the Utd games and then after that I might only watch a half of other games where as before I could sit down and easily watch a game between two low in the table sides,

I find the game is gone backwards a bit and there is no real needle in it anymore, there is very few players playing on the edge now, everything is tapered down and then you have VAR making decisions like a finger or a toe offside and the way the refs handle it all annoys me, just make the VAR signal and go over to the sideline monitor and make the decision, speed it up a bit.

So now I find myself looking at old clips of games on YouTube, maybe I'm trying to recapture my youth :D

Same as that. Clips of the Big Match from the 70s and 80s when a tackle was a tackle and when someone did go down it was definitely a sore one.
Different players then,to many players nowadays more worried about their hair does than football, some of the theatrics and diving are really embarrassing to watch.
I thought var at the start would be a good addition to football but when you're big toe nail deems you offside just shows what a farce it is.

Lord TSC

I’d be disappointed if we don’t rest a few tonight.

VDB should be starting over Bruno, for instance. We are four up, if he doesn’t rest people tonight, he’s insane.

Mantis Toboggan

Big few weeks for Mata, Bailly, James, Telles, Tuanzebe, Matic and de beek. All should see some game time and will need to perform.

Mitch Connor

Lord TSC wrote: »

I’d be disappointed if we don’t rest a few tonight.

VDB should be starting over Bruno, for instance. We are four up, if he doesn’t rest people tonight, he’s insane.

i'd be weary against resting too many. We are unlikely to lose 4-0 but Roma did tonk Barca not too long ago, so lets be a bit careful.

Mitch Connor

I think we should be seeing Matic, James, VDB starting tonight, probably Bailly over one of the CBs, can't see both being rested. Telles in for Shaw but I'd be surprised if anyone came in for AWB. Maybe Tuanzebe?

SteM

Think James might be injured?

loyatemu

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Big few weeks for Mata, Bailly, James, Telles, Tuanzebe, Matic and de beek. All should see some game time and will need to perform.

give Amad some game time as well - good opportunity to get him running at leggy defenders who are ready for their hols.

Drumpot

Lord TSC wrote: »

I’d be disappointed if we don’t rest a few tonight.

VDB should be starting over Bruno, for instance. We are four up, if he doesn’t rest people tonight, he’s insane.

I agree with you about tonight but here’s some interesting statistics (includes sub appearances)

Players who have played over 40 games:

City - 9 (De Bruyne was injured, isn’t even in this list) - Rodri 49 games (most)

United - 4 - Wan Bissaka and Maguire 49 games (most)

24 or more EPL games:

City : 11
United: 7

Source:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020–21_Manchester_City_F.C._season

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020–21_Manchester_United_F.C._season

When we talk of squad options , it’s night and day. I think it actually shows that Ole has done a good job with more limited options. I know we want more rotation of squad but generally speaking when Ole is resting a starter, the first team is losing out a fair bit on quality. City/Pep doesn’t have that problem and is spoilt with a ridiculous amount of options.

But here’s another question , why would United players be jaded or tired? City don’t seem to suffer from this problem and they have a lot more players who have played more games this and last season. Are we maybe placing too much emphasis on player rotation?

Cookiemunster

SteM wrote: »

Think James might be injured?

Yup, he was one of the three players listed as not travelling along with Martial and Jones.

S.M.B.

Drumpot wrote: »

Why would United players be jaded or tired? City don’t seem to suffer from this problem and they have a lot more players who have played more games this and last season. Are we maybe placing too much emphasis on player rotation?

I don't think we are placing too much emphasis on player rotation.

Transfermarkt has 3 United players with 50+ games and I'd trust their stats over wikipedia

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/manchester-united/leistungsdaten/verein/985

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/manchester-city/leistungsdaten/verein/281

I also think minutes played tells a lot more than appearances. 2 City outfield players have played more than 3,500 minutes this season, 3 United players have played 4,000+.

Hitting these numbers in a condensed season and not expecting any sort of fatigue (either mental or physical) is asking a lot imo.

Mitch Connor

Drumpot wrote: »

I agree with you about tonight but here’s some interesting statistics (includes sub appearances)

Players who have played over 40 games:

City - 9 (De Bruyne was injured, isn’t even in this list) - Rodri 49 games (most)

United - 4 - Wan Bissaka and Maguire 49 games (most)

24 or more EPL games:

City : 11
United: 7

Source:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020–21_Manchester_City_F.C._season

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020–21_Manchester_United_F.C._season

When we talk of squad options , it’s night and day. I think it actually shows that Ole has done a good job with more limited options. I know we want more rotation of squad but generally speaking when Ole is resting a starter, the first team is losing out a fair bit on quality. City/Pep doesn’t have that problem and is spoilt with a ridiculous amount of options.

But here’s another question , why would United players be jaded or tired? City don’t seem to suffer from this problem and they have a lot more players who have played more games this and last season. Are we maybe placing too much emphasis on player rotation?

According to transfermarkt United have 9 player with over 40 appearances. Bruno highest with 52.

16 players with over 24 appearances. (in all comps)

Lithium93_

De Gea
Alex Telles
Axel Tuanzebe
Harry Maguire
Brandon Williams
Fred
Donny Van De Beek
Amad
Juan Mata
Mason Greenwood
Edinson Cavani

That's my guess for the starting 11 this evening.

Zeek12

I don't see wholescale changes tonight.

Winning the EL is obviously Ole's main priority from now til end of the season. After such a brilliant 2nd half in the first leg he's not going to do anything to jeopardize it now.

Some changes yes, but not a huge number imo. Expecting to see Telles and Tuanzebe in tonight. Possibly Matic too.
But I think the reliables like Bruno, Maguire, AWB and Fred will start.

Make the changes after 60 minutes or so if all is going well.

S.M.B.

Agreed, I'd be expecting a strong team playing in second gear as opposed to Ole fielding a B team.

Drumpot

S.M.B. wrote: »

I don't think we are placing too much emphasis on player rotation.

Transfermarkt has 3 United players with 50+ games and I'd trust their stats over wikipedia

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/manchester-united/leistungsdaten/verein/985

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/manchester-city/leistungsdaten/verein/281

I also think minutes played tells a lot more than appearances. 2 City outfield players have played more than 3,500 minutes this season, 3 United players have played 4,000+.

Hitting these numbers in a condensed season and not expecting any sort of fatigue (either mental or physical) is asking a lot imo.

Mitch Connor wrote: »

According to transfermarkt United have 9 player with over 40 appearances. Bruno highest with 52.

16 players with over 24 appearances. (in all comps)

Hmmm, I don't know, I feel like alot is being made of fatigue, is there any reference or information that shows the modern footballer is playing more ? I know this is possibly a bad example, but in 1999, United played alot more football:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998%E2%80%9399_Manchester_United_F.C._season

5 players over 50 games
8 players with 40+ games

then if we look at minutes

9 players over 3420 mins in the season, 6 players over 4000 minutes


https://www.transfermarkt.us/roy-keane/leistungsdaten/spieler/3396/saison/1998/wettbewerb/CL

Even the Barca team of 2008/09 had 7 players with over 3500 minutes time, 4 over 4000 minutes.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/fc-barcelona/leistungsdaten/verein/131/plus/0?reldata=%262008

There doesn't appear to be anything unique about United's players minutes played this season.

Is the issue that the sport is more focused on exercise and fitness so games and even training is more intense leading to more injuries? The issue with the modern footballer is not too many minutes played.

Lord TSC

Drumpot wrote: »

But here’s another question , why would United players be jaded or tired? City don’t seem to suffer from this problem and they have a lot more players who have played more games this and last season. Are we maybe placing too much emphasis on player rotation?

I don't think they'd be particularly tired right now. They've had a week off since their last game, so should be fit for tonight.

But given we have an insane run in coming up, it's about not needing to risk certain players, while giving a chance to others.

VDB, Telles, Amad, Tunzebe off the top of my head are players barely getting any game time, meaning they aren't getting chances to impress. Without chances, we can't know if they deserve bigger chances, or spots on the team ahead of others.

We're going into a game 4 goals up, so we can afford to give minutes to people to prove themselves. If we struggle in the first half, then throw on Bruno or Maguire or whoever, to steady the ship.

But I'd quite like to see something like....

Cavani
James - Mata - Amad
Matic - VDB
Telles - Bailly - Tunzebe - AWB
DDG

If that team can't sustain a 4 goal lead, then a good few need shipping out...

beakerjoe

Bruno nor Maguire are rarely rested..... cant see either of them not playing tonight.

Will I Am Not

S.M.B. wrote: »

But the standard of the PL isn't particularly poor relative to other European leagues right now which was my original point.

Yeah sorry, I wasn’t disputing that just making the point.

All_in_Flynn

Drumpot wrote: »

Hmmm, I don't know, I feel like alot is being made of fatigue, is there any reference or information that shows the modern footballer is playing more ? I know this is possibly a bad example, but in 1999, United played alot more football:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998%E2%80%9399_Manchester_United_F.C._season

5 players over 50 games
8 players with 40+ games

then if we look at minutes

9 players over 3420 mins in the season, 6 players over 4000 minutes


https://www.transfermarkt.us/roy-keane/leistungsdaten/spieler/3396/saison/1998/wettbewerb/CL

Even the Barca team of 2008/09 had 7 players with over 3500 minutes time, 4 over 4000 minutes.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/fc-barcelona/leistungsdaten/verein/131/plus/0?reldata=%262008

There doesn't appear to be anything unique about United's players minutes played this season.

Is the issue that the sport is more focused on exercise and fitness so games and even training is more intense leading to more injuries? The issue with the modern footballer is not too many minutes played.

There's a few things that I'm not sure you're considering. They've essentially been playing since March 2020. They had no preseason which in the modern game is absolutely essential. That alone, I felt, would come back to haunt us later in the season.

That was actually a huge reason for our terrible start to the season too. Crystal Palace I think had 6 games in their legs by the time they played us where we had a sole game against Villa I think it was.

S.M.B.

Drumpot wrote: »

Hmmm, I don't know, I feel like alot is being made of fatigue, is there any reference or information that shows the modern footballer is playing more ? I know this is possibly a bad example, but in 1999, United played alot more football:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998%E2%80%9399_Manchester_United_F.C._season

5 players over 50 games
8 players with 40+ games

then if we look at minutes

9 players over 3420 mins in the season, 6 players over 4000 minutes


https://www.transfermarkt.us/roy-keane/leistungsdaten/spieler/3396/saison/1998/wettbewerb/CL

Even the Barca team of 2008/09 had 7 players with over 3500 minutes time, 4 over 4000 minutes.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/fc-barcelona/leistungsdaten/verein/131/plus/0?reldata=%262008

There doesn't appear to be anything unique about United's players minutes played this season.

Is the issue that the sport is more focused on exercise and fitness so games and even training is more intense leading to more injuries? The issue with the modern footballer is not too many minutes played.

Those Barca numbers are pretty similar to United's numbers right now but we have potentially 6 more games left to play. Maguire is on track to play 5,000+ minutes.

Add the fact that those 5,000 minutes would be played across 8 months compared to a normal 9 month season.

Add the fact that United's final game last season was in mid August and there was a reduced off season.

I don't see how it's anything other than a unique situation for a small group of key players to be honest.

akelly02

play a strong team,

get the first goal just to make Roma not want to be there,

then take off 5 lads of your most importance e.g. bruno , harry.

AidoEirE

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Yup, he was one of the three players listed as not travelling along with Martial and Jones.

Jones is consistent in the fact he's the first name on that list every week.

v3ttel

I don't know why Cavani would play tonight. He's key, injury prone, and we have a crazy schedule coming up. The time he shouldn't be risked is when we're 4 goals up. Martial (who has had a fairly poor season anyway) is only back in training today.

Rashford should also be on the bench at most. Let him get a bit more of a rest because he's been running on empty and playing through pain for a long time. Again, he'll be hugely important for the crazy run in. He won't even have the Summer off, so he'll be ruined for next season unless he's managed.

Donny, Telles, Tuanzebe, Bailly, Matic, Amad, Mata, Williams should all get a lot of minutes tonight, ideally with at least 4-5 of them starting. Get the likes of Bruno, Maguire, AWB, off early unless we're having an absolute nightmare and hold back Rashford & Cavani.

Drumpot

All_in_Flynn wrote: »

There's a few things that I'm not sure you're considering. They've essentially been playing since March 2020. They had no preseason which in the modern game is absolutely essential. That alone, I felt, would come back to haunt us later in the season.

That was actually a huge reason for our terrible start to the season too. Crystal Palace I think had 6 games in their legs by the time they played us where we had a sole game against Villa I think it was.

S.M.B. wrote: »

Those Barca numbers are pretty similar to United's numbers right now but we have potentially 6 more games left to play. Maguire is on track to play 5,000+ minutes.

Add the fact that those 5,000 minutes would be played across 8 months compared to a normal 9 month season.

Add the fact that United's final game last season was in mid August and there was a reduced off season.

I don't see how it's anything other than a unique situation for a small group of key players to be honest.

Will be interesting to see the difference at the end of the season with the likes of city and Chelsea. I don’t watch them regularly to be fair, does anybody know if their fans think these teams look tired?

KH25

AidoEirE wrote: »

Jones is consistent in the fact he's the first name on that list every week.

Was Jones not declared fit a few weeks ago? He just can’t stay fit anymore.

Tchaikovsky

Jones has seemingly been out for almost a year now with a knee injury, since 12 June 2020. His injury record is impressive https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/phil-jones/verletzungen/spieler/117996

y0ssar1an22

Tchaikovsky wrote: »

Jones has seemingly been out for almost a year now with a knee injury, since 12 June 2020. His injury record is impressive https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/phil-jones/verletzungen/spieler/117996

it averages at 22 games missed per season since he's been at utd!