Manchester United Teamtalk/Transfer/Gossip 23/24 - [New Thread Available]

billyhead

TRC10 wrote: »

We can beat those teams. We just dropped points on the day. That's life, that's football, you drop points sometimes.

No manager is doing better than 2nd with this group of players.

We also got the measure of City in the league. The talent is there in the squad. It's just not been utilised to its potential.

Liam O

dave_o_brien wrote: »

That's grand, you're entitled to that opinion.

Allardyce is not very good. Hodgson, yeah maybe... Bruce, fair enough. I think Ole has made pretty clear progress.

But would you have Ole bottom 5 managers in the league?! I wouldn't.

In a situation where all things are equal, let's say they all got next season at Brighton or something, I'd find it very difficult to put Ole above most managers in the league. I won't count interim managers in that because they don't count.

Mitch Connor

TRC10 wrote: »

We can beat those teams. We just dropped points on the day. That's life, that's football, you drop points sometimes.

No manager is doing better than 2nd with this group of players.

with united, it is consistent failings we are seeing. its not one off 'bad days'.

IMO United should feel they missed a chance this season, because those amount of bad days have cost us having a lot more points.

United have been terrible too often, and some times we have got away with it, some have cost us points.

Look at that draw vs West Brom, for example. We were absolutely rubbish. Preceding that game they were beaten 5-0 by City, draw 2-2 with Fulham, lost to Sheffield Untied and Spurs, then got a 1-1 draw vs us. It is inexcusable performanes like that that have cost us.

Prior to that WBA dibacle we through away a 2 goal lead vs Everton, lost at home to Sheffield United and draw with Arsenal. Whatever about the Arsenal game the 5 points dropped vs Everton and SU, plus the 2 vs West Brom are a disgrace. And when you are dropping points in 4 matches from 5 - with two of those being sides that got relegated, you can't just say 'its an off day'. Its consistent. it is poor. and it is poorer than should be expected of this group of players, problems with the squad taken into account.

Liam O

TRC10 wrote: »

We can beat those teams. We just dropped points on the day. That's life, that's football, you drop points sometimes.

No manager is doing better than 2nd with this group of players.

Okay, is there a manager out there who will get more than 74 points with this squad? Which is apparently in a better place than at any point since 2013...

dave_o_brien

Liam O wrote: »

In a situation where all things are equal, let's say they all got next season at Brighton or something, I'd find it very difficult to put Ole above most managers in the league. I won't count interim managers in that because they don't count.

Ok, I'm just looking for a bit more specificity. If you think he's in the bottom half, it should be easier/ quicker to name the managers who are worse than him. I'm not out to point-score or be a d**k or anything, I'm just genuinely interested in who you'd name.

From my end, I'm a big fan of him as a club legend but indifferent to him managerially. But, to be fair, I'd have him comfortably top half of the league's managers and deserving of being trusted. Haven't felt like that since Fergie.

TRC10

Liam O wrote: »

Okay, is there a manager out there who will get more than 74 points with this squad? Which is apparently in a better place than at any point since 2013...

Well supposedly better managers have gotten fewer points with better squads

Mitch Connor

TRC10 wrote: »

Well supposedly better managers have gotten fewer points with better squads

Lampard and Jose got sacked for it.

Liam O

dave_o_brien wrote: »

Ok, I'm just looking for a bit more specificity. If you think he's in the bottom half, it should be easier/ quicker to name the managers who are worse than him. I'm not out to point-score or be a d**k or anything, I'm just genuinely interested in who you'd name.

From my end, I'm a big fan of him as a club legend but indifferent to him managerially. But, to be fair, I'd have him comfortably top half of the league's managers and deserving of being trusted. Haven't felt like that since Fergie.

In my head I tried to name the 5 worst managers in the PL a few months ago. Went for Smith, Parker, Bruce and Nuno and couldn't think of another as bad as Ole.

This is personal opinion on Smith, Nuno and Parker as they have actually done decent jobs where they are. You could probably say the same about Bruce towards the end of this season too.

With all other teams you can point to good things that the managers have done in improving them. With United the same problems are there from when Ole took over.

Drumpot

Mitch Connor wrote: »

with united, it is consistent failings we are seeing. its not one off 'bad days'.

IMO United should feel they missed a chance this season, because those amount of bad days have cost us having a lot more points.

United have been terrible too often, and some times we have got away with it, some have cost us points.

Look at that draw vs West Brom, for example. We were absolutely rubbish. Preceding that game they were beaten 5-0 by City, draw 2-2 with Fulham, lost to Sheffield Untied and Spurs, then got a 1-1 draw vs us. It is inexcusable performanes like that that have cost us.

Prior to that WBA dibacle we through away a 2 goal lead vs Everton, lost at home to Sheffield United and draw with Arsenal. Whatever about the Arsenal game the 5 points dropped vs Everton and SU, plus the 2 vs West Brom are a disgrace. And when you are dropping points in 4 matches from 5 - with two of those being sides that got relegated, you can't just say 'its an off day'. Its consistent. it is poor. and it is poorer than should be expected of this group of players, problems with the squad taken into account.

There is no benchmark for "this group of players" though. This is the problem. Will a different manager automatically equate to "better" ? We dont know is the honest answer. For all of the question marks over Ole, is there a chance he is the right man at the right time to make this squad work ? Maybe, I do not know, but I wouldnt presume either way.

City will finish in mid 80 points. Is that a good points tally for a squad of that talent ? They havent played that many more games then United, have had easier runs in the cups and as mentioned they have a far stronger squad to rotatate.

So what is a new manager going to do with this squad ? Tuchel got a manager bounce kind of like Ole, followed by a bit of a blip. Maybe he is a better manager, but hes a very strong squad of players aswell.

One thing that appears to be under estimated is Ole's man management capacity. Its up there with the best of them, there is no doubt in my mind. No in fighting or rumblings in the squad. Seems to be a good team spirit among the players . Some great character shown at time , even though we dont want to keep having to go goals down to show it, but its far better then the team having no fight or capacity to get back into games.

In many regards its been a bit of a roller coaster with Ole, but I have felt more alive and excited by things Under Ole then I probably have under anybody since SAF. Feels like things are moving the right direction on field and that its unreasonable for people to expect more then we have gotten this season.

Some people may quote our low points tally as a poor second finish, but we will finish ahead of last years league winners and in between the champions league finalists. Glass is half full for me. If Ole is supported well in the summer I would hope for a top 4 finish again next season in what will be a very very competitive top 4 challenge. I would be hoping for an easier CL group phase and a QF of the CL. That to me would be progress. Unless there is some crazy signings I do not see how anybody could think any other manager could be doing much better then that.

beakerjoe

Mitch Connor wrote: »

No, I think United are some way off a league winning side.

We should be able to beat Arsenal. Or Sheffield United at home. Or Fulham at home. or everton when 2 goals up with minutes to play. or West Brom. or Palace. Or not lose 3 games out of 4 in the CL.

United should be playing and performing better than they are and have been this season.

In some respects yes, they are way off. I personally dont think we a good bit off.

But when you think of some of the games we threw away, like the defeats To Sheff United, the draw at Everton, the awful displays against Arsenal, ..... we could have been up there too.

But player for player, we are way off.

Mitch Connor

beakerjoe wrote: »

In some respects yes, they are way off. I personally dont think we a good bit off.

But when you think of some of the games we threw away, like the defeats To Sheff United, the draw at Everton, the awful displays against Arsenal, ..... we could have been up there too.

But player for player, we are way off.

That is why I think united should view this season as a missed opportunity.

Liverpool imploded early, Chelsea were rubbish under lampard. Mourinho did a Jose and city also had a very poor early season. United were top beginning of the year.

Citys points tally us low for that group. Mid 90s is their bar.

With so many sides doing poorly, the poor results from United stopped us winning or at least getting close to the title.

United could have won the title this season similar to Leicester in 16, imo.

TRC10

Mitch Connor wrote: »

United could have won the title this season similar to Leicester in 16, imo.

Ok but Leicester 2016 was a miracle. You can't criticize a coach for not performing a miracle.

United winning the league wouldn't be a miracle, but it would have been a pretty big upset given how strong City, liverpool and Chelsea's squads are.

2nd is the absolute most Anybody could have asked for at the start of the season.

Ok the CL exit and FA cup exit were very disappointing, and I'm not giving Ole a free pass on that.

But the league doesn't lie (Jason McAteer can cry "false position" all he likes) And 6th to 3rd to 2nd is tangible progress...even if it's not as fast as some people here would like.

beakerjoe

TRC10 wrote: »

Ok but Leicester 2016 was a miracle. You can't criticize a coach for not performing a miracle.

United winning the league wouldn't be a miracle, but it would have been a pretty big upset given how strong City, liverpool and Chelsea's squads are.

2nd is the absolute most Anybody could have asked for at the start of the season.

Ok the CL exit and FA cup exit were very disappointing, and I'm not giving Ole a free pass on that.

But the league doesn't lie (Jason McAteer can cry "false position" all he likes) And 6th to 3rd to 2nd is tangible progress...even if it's not as fast as some people here would like.

It was no miracle.

They had a well oiled squad with world class players....Kante, Vardy, Maherz, some not far behind in Schmeichel and a sturdy back 4 who all peaked at the right time.

Pussyhands

TRC10 wrote: »

Adding Amad and Pellestri to the list of "Ole signings" is really desperate.

Telles was a Woodward panic buy on deadline day.

Just like Cavani is a masterstroke by Ole I suppose.

Amad cost more than Daniel James so is Dan James not an Ole signing now?

downwesht

To win the league you must be consistent.The problem with todays squad is that you don't know what team will turn up.The defence is poor overall,hopeless at set pieces and dodgy keepers.Midfield is in and out ,Pogba is not the man to build the team around,Fred is hit and miss as is Van De Beek.A decent striker like Cavani is badly needed but Martial is not the one........

TRC10

Pussyhands wrote: »

Just like Cavani is a masterstroke by Ole I suppose.

Amad cost more than Daniel James so is Dan James not an Ole signing now?

No, Cavani was absolutely a panic signing.

He just turned out to be good.

But signing 34 year olds on a free isnt something we should get into a habit of doing just because this one turned out to be good, most of the time they aren't.

Dan James was a punt in a young player who did well in the championship who we'd probably be able to sell for as much, if not more than what we signed him for. I wouldn't use the signing of Dan James as something to judge Ole by. I'd say it was a fairly neutral signing. He's not at the level to be a first XI player, but he's been an ok squad player and he's done a job on a few occasions, and for £12m I'd say that's fine.

First XI signings like AWB, Maguire and Bruno are what should be used, not youngsters who were never going to make an instant impact or deadline day Woodward panic buys.

TRC10

beakerjoe wrote: »

It was no miracle.

They had a well oiled squad with world class players....Kante, Vardy, Maherz, some not far behind in Schmeichel and a sturdy back 4 who all peaked at the right time.

Ok it depends on ones definition of a miracle.

Leicester winning the league was pretty fecking spectacular no matter how you dress it up.

You cant criticise a coach for not doing a Leicester.

It was one of the craziest things to ever happen in sport.

Lord TSC

McGrath at the Telegraph saying we have even asking about Danny Ings. Last year of his contract. 20m fee mooted.

Mitch Connor

TRC10 wrote: »

Ok it depends on ones definition of a miracle.

Leicester winning the league was pretty fecking spectacular no matter how you dress it up.

You cant criticise a coach for not doing a Leicester.

It was one of the craziest things to ever happen in sport.

I meant in terms of lcfc capitalized on other sides having poor seasons. United had that chance this season and did not capitalise. Or they did and that is how we got 2nd.

beno619

Your Airbag wrote: »

I never said you should be optimistic. You said they are likely to embarrass us. How exactly?

Not winning a final against this Villarreal side could be deemed embarrassing. I'm not sure I'd go that far myself but yeah.

TRC10

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I meant in terms of lcfc capitalized on other sides having poor seasons. United had that chance this season and did not capitalise. Or they did and that is how we got 2nd.

Hindsight is 20/20. You can always look back and say "we should have done better here" or 'we should have done better there" and tbh, yes there are games where we should have done better, 100%. We dropped many points we shouldn't have.

But I don't see how anybody can look at our current team and say "that team should have beaten Man City to the title". Could we have ran them closer? Probably.

I genuinely think a world class no.6 transforms us and at the very least would secure top 4 again next season and could possibly make us challengers.

And if Ole gets 3 first team signings but it turns out he can't take us to the next level, then we part ways. But he's done enough to earn the chance. But as of yet, he hasn't had a team capable of mounting a serious challenge.

dave_o_brien

Liam O wrote: »

In my head I tried to name the 5 worst managers in the PL a few months ago. Went for Smith, Parker, Bruce and Nuno and couldn't think of another as bad as Ole.

This is personal opinion on Smith, Nuno and Parker as they have actually done decent jobs where they are. You could probably say the same about Bruce towards the end of this season too.

With all other teams you can point to good things that the managers have done in improving them. With United the same problems are there from when Ole took over.

Fair enough. I don't agree with you, but sure that's what's good about opinions!

jimmytwotimes 2013

https://twitter.com/FabrizioRomano/status/1394957764837978113?s=19

Selling to City wud make sense as Spurs aren't gonna win league anyway. Kane has more than decent chance of retiring with medals then.

beno619

TRC10 wrote: »

He's 2nd in the league with a squad that very few thought could get top 4.

I'm not sure this is true and at least not on here.

beakerjoe

Lord TSC wrote: »

McGrath at the Telegraph saying we have even asking about Danny Ings. Last year of his contract. 20m fee mooted.

Id take him for 20 million. We really dont have a player like him and he knows where the net is....never really got a fair chance at Pool.

Lord TSC

beakerjoe wrote: »

Id take him for 20 million. We really dont have a player like him and he knows where the net is....never really got a fair chance at Pool.

Reading Saints fans talking, seems he’d like a move to prove himself at a CL level team, rather than just looking for a pay rise. 20 goals a season for two seasons in a poor Southampton team.

Feels like he’d be a decent get as part of a summer package. On his own, not spectacular, but as part of a window with a Sancho, Rice and a cheap CB?

The Big Easy

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/FabrizioRomano/status/1394957764837978113?s=19

Selling to City wud make sense as Spurs aren't gonna win league anyway. Kane has more than decent chance of retiring with medals then.

I can't believe Kane signed a contract of that length without any break clauses such as Champions League qualification or managerial appointments. He had huge leverage at the time of signing, but as has been said here, his brother is his agent apparently and is not the sharpest, I know nothing about him to be honest. His love of Spurs and how they were doing at the time may have blinded him from looking out for his own interests first.

Reminds you why players choose a guy like Raiola, if anyone was wondering, as Kane would never be in this position with him as his agent, as repulsive as he is to non-players. It's incredibly cut-throat at the top of anything and you need a someone in your corner willing to do the dirty work.

It would be an ugly end for all concerned if Levy holds out for something ridiculous.

beakerjoe

Lord TSC wrote: »

Reading Saints fans talking, seems he’d like a move to prove himself at a CL level team, rather than just looking for a pay rise. 20 goals a season for two seasons in a poor Southampton team.

Feels like he’d be a decent get as part of a summer package. On his own, not spectacular, but as part of a window with a Sancho, Rice and a cheap CB?

Like when Cavani needs a rest, Id have more faith in Ings coming on than Rashford or Martial at CF. Rashford/Pogba alternating on the Left, Greenwood and anew RW alternating on the right.

beakerjoe

It will be really interesting to see if Kane goes to City. I cant see City paying over 130 million, and thats the kind of fee Levy will demand. Will City low ball them? Will Kane agitate further? Will Levy be stubborn.

I can see United trying to trump City as we did with Sanchez.

Mitch Connor

Lord TSC wrote: »

Reading Saints fans talking, seems he’d like a move to prove himself at a CL level team, rather than just looking for a pay rise. 20 goals a season for two seasons in a poor Southampton team.

Feels like he’d be a decent get as part of a summer package. On his own, not spectacular, but as part of a window with a Sancho, Rice and a cheap CB?

Sign Sancho, sell martial, sign ings.

Rashford, James and Sancho for left.
Cavani, ings, Greenwood for centre.
Sancho, Greenwood and amad for right.

Would mean we have a 'proper number 9' in either Cavani or ings, you can see the current difference when Cavani isn't central, and isn't a focal point. Rashford and Martial don't offer the same style.

Lord TSC

https://twitter.com/manutd/status/1395047743366877184?s=21

Lithium93_

Well at least he's living up to his word from one of his recent (definitely not written by him) letters about something with fans at the end of the season.

https://twitter.com/ManUtd/status/1395047743366877184

billyhead

Lord TSC wrote: »

Reading Saints fans talking, seems he’d like a move to prove himself at a CL level team, rather than just looking for a pay rise. 20 goals a season for two seasons in a poor Southampton team.

Feels like he’d be a decent get as part of a summer package. On his own, not spectacular, but as part of a window with a Sancho, Rice and a cheap CB?

I would think he would be a good lad to have in the squad too.

TRC10

Lord TSC wrote: »

Reading Saints fans talking, seems he’d like a move to prove himself at a CL level team, rather than just looking for a pay rise. 20 goals a season for two seasons in a poor Southampton team.

Feels like he’d be a decent get as part of a summer package. On his own, not spectacular, but as part of a window with a Sancho, Rice and a cheap CB?

If you think we're getting Rice and a CB, you're a more optimistic man than me.

Lord TSC

TRC10 wrote: »

If you think we're getting Rice and a CB, you're a more optimistic man than me.

I always go into windows optamistic. Usually naively so.

I know I joke about signing Ronaldo, and I don’t believe that’s happening.

But, for instance, I do think there could be a decent summer this year. Glazer appearing at the fan forum is a form of damage control, and if they are in damage control mode, there may be a little extra done this summer so they can point to it and say “we are trying”. Even if it’s not trying to the level we want.

I think, for instance, you could see a Sancho level signing, and then two or three 20-40 m signings, while seeing Martial, DDG and Lingard shipped out to fund them.

Sancho, Ings. Linked to Arabammi and Varane a bit today. Something like that could be doable.

I’d just rather go into the window with some optimism, however stupidly, than be miserable off the bat.

Pussyhands

I don't see us signing a CB after renewing Bailly. I really wish we saw more of Tuanzebe this season. I think he has the x-factor. He really should have been sent to Villa this season.

pjohnson

Lord TSC wrote: »

I always go into windows optamistic. Usually naively so.

I know I joke about signing Ronaldo, and I don’t believe that’s happening.

But, for instance, I do think there could be a decent summer this year. Glazer appearing at the fan forum is a form of damage control, and if they are in damage control mode, there may be a little extra done this summer so they can point to it and say “we are trying”. Even if it’s not trying to the level we want.

I think, for instance, you could see a Sancho level signing, and then two or three 20-40 m signings, while seeing Martial, DDG and Lingard shipped out to fund them.

Sancho, Ings. Linked to Arabammi and Varane a bit today. Something like that could be doable.

I’d just rather go into the window with some optimism, however stupidly, than be miserable off the bat.

Pussyhands

Being realistic, we're not selling Martial. It's been a bad season but the club will no doubt feel it just never got going and he'll be better after a full pre season.

Far too risky to sell De Gea. I think Henderson will eventually be good enough to be no.1 but I think he has far too much to learn, not sure a club with our demands can afford to have a keeper going through a learning curve.

TRC10

Pussyhands wrote: »

Being realistic, we're not selling Martial. It's been a bad season but the club will no doubt feel it just never got going and he'll be better after a full pre season.

Far too risky to sell De Gea. I think Henderson will eventually be good enough to be no.1 but I think he has far too much to learn, not sure a club with our demands can afford to have a keeper going through a learning curve.

More likely that Henderson goes with a buy-back clause methinks.

Mitch Connor

Pussyhands wrote: »

Being realistic, we're not selling Martial. It's been a bad season but the club will no doubt feel it just never got going and he'll be better after a full pre season.

Far too risky to sell De Gea. I think Henderson will eventually be good enough to be no.1 but I think he has far too much to learn, not sure a club with our demands can afford to have a keeper going through a learning curve.

no way both Henderson and ddg are at the club next season.

xtal191

I'd loan Henderson or sell him with a buy back clause

pjohnson

Loan Henderson (he shouldve been loaned this year tbh).

beakerjoe

Lord TSC wrote: »

I always go into windows optamistic. Usually naively so.

I know I joke about signing Ronaldo, and I don’t believe that’s happening.

But, for instance, I do think there could be a decent summer this year. Glazer appearing at the fan forum is a form of damage control, and if they are in damage control mode, there may be a little extra done this summer so they can point to it and say “we are trying”. Even if it’s not trying to the level we want.

I think, for instance, you could see a Sancho level signing, and then two or three 20-40 m signings, while seeing Martial, DDG and Lingard shipped out to fund them.

Sancho, Ings. Linked to Arabammi and Varane a bit today. Something like that could be doable.

I’d just rather go into the window with some optimism, however stupidly, than be miserable off the bat.

Im happy to wait and see what happens. Im hoping for at least 1 big signing and 2 smaller signings.

EltonJohn69

Lingard has stopped scoring..... might not get the £100,000,000 for him.....

Adamocovic

Loaning Henderson makes no sense for either party.

For us he’s on a huge salary. No club looking to loan a keeper would pay that. Also who would we loan him to? Hardly be a top club, not only to avoid strengthening possible opposition but what top clubs these day loan keepers rather than buy. You want someone that will be a long term fix.

Normally teams fighting for promotion or fighting relegation go after that sort of move.

As for Henderson, no way he would be on board with that. Imagine, signs a new big money deal with promises of first team football last season, when he could have easily moved elsewhere, only to be told we want to loan him again.

He’s been on loan for 5 seasons with us. He’s proven himself on loan, and has done enough with us to garner a lot of attention if we were to sell.

The only real solution is to sell him or De Gea. There is no point going into next season with the two of them, paying nearly 500k a week in keeper salary (just for those 2).

A loan makes no sense to me at all.

Adamocovic

pjohnson wrote: »

Loan Henderson (he shouldve been loaned this year tbh).

Last summer we gave him a huge contract and promises of first team football, or at least the chance to compete for it, in order to stop a supposed move to one of our rivals.

Loaning him this season was out of the question once that was done.

Adamocovic

Mitch Connor wrote: »

no way both Henderson and ddg are at the club next season.

Agree 100%.

Not buying Chelsea links now that they have Mendy. Was more likely last summer when linked to him. Unless Tuchel doesn’t rate Mendy but I think Mendy has been good.

Spurs is a possibility, but may depend on who the manager they bring in is.

He’s been linked to Dortmund in the past too but god knows what sort of reliability that is.

Certainly wouldn’t struggle selling him if we did but I’d be disappointed to see him go.

Lithium93_

https://twitter.com/brfootball/status/1395349856772927490

Hotblack Desiato

Only 62 goals and 80 assists from 265 appearances? He's no Bruno...

piplip87

All the talk about Haaland and Kane and boom here comes Danny Ings jaysus. Good striker but definitely not what we need.