All Ireland Senior Hurling Championship (Liam McCarthy Cup) 2021

castletownman

Does anyone know who Owens' umpires were yesterday. Because in his team, one of them is a Tipperary native who happened to umpire the 2019 final. Which is surely vested interest?

MfMan

Happyilylost wrote: »

He slid in on his knees. Red in other sports would need studs showing in such a tackle. Don't think there was much malice in it

Malice or not, I thought it was dangerous; completely upended the Tipp lad and could have broken his leg.

Speakerboxx

Limerick will beat Tipp by about 5 points.

seligehgit

MfMan wrote: »

As a former ref though, do you think McCarthy could have gotten a straight-red for his dive-in? It was dangerous by any standards and would be a sending-off in other field sports.

As a neutral observer critically analysing this decision in isolation I thought James Owens made the wrong call.

Who would be a referee?

IMO it was a dangerous,bordering on reckless challenge that could be deemed a red card offence.

Irrespective of how irate posters may or may not be at the level of his officiating it is unfair to question James Owens impartiality and integrity.

No referee goes out onto a pitch with the intention of having their decision making being a talking point in a negative fashion post match.

Totally different matter for the powers that be to carry out their usual review of his match day officiating and see where that leads.

lawred2

seligehgit wrote: »

As a neutral observer critically analysing this decision in isolation I thought James Owens made the wrong call.

Who would be a referee?

IMO it was a dangerous,bordering on reckless challenge that could be deemed a red card offence.

Irrespective of how irate posters may or may not be at the level of his officiating it is unfair to question James Owens impartiality and integrity.

No referee goes out onto a pitch with the intention of having their decision making being a talking point in a negative fashion post match.

Totally different matter for the powers that be to carry out their usual review of his match day officiating and see where that leads.

I didn't think Brian Lohan did much to help matters post game either. Making reference to a sending off by the same referee last year.

Grats

formerlyET wrote: »

Abuse? Calling him a bully? Tyrell saw an opportunity to put himself in the limelight yesterday by hanging someone else out to dry, and he went to town on Owens yesterday. Zero objectivity. A lot of puffed up bravado dressed up as analysis. I 've no problem in saying I found it very overboard and distasteful.

In your opinion was James Owens correct in awarding the penalty to Tipp?

ShamoBuc

formerlyET wrote: »

But anybody thinking to themselves Owens is a disgrace or a bad ref or ruined the game yesterday, they've lost it. Mods included.

Mod Note

If you have an issue with Moderation, take it to PM.
Do not discuss it on thread.
As always, do not quote or reply to a Mod Note on thread, PM instead please, as per Charter.

I see sheep

lawred2 wrote: »

I didn't think Brian Lohan did much to help matters post game either. Making reference to a sending off by the same referee last year.

Lohan's team were wronged unfairly, he was perfectly entitled to be critical of the ref.

formerlyET

Charlie69 wrote: »

You said he was disgraceful and a bully.... but you accuse posters saying similar things about James Owens of going over the top. Double standards.

Making a bad call in a game is not disgraceful.

Hanging someone out to dry on national TV is, in my book.

caddy16

seligehgit wrote: »

As a neutral observer critically analysing this decision in isolation I thought James Owens made the wrong call.

Who would be a referee?

IMO it was a dangerous,bordering on reckless challenge that could be deemed a red card offence.

Irrespective of how irate posters may or may not be at the level of his officiating it is unfair to question James Owens impartiality and integrity.

No referee goes out onto a pitch with the intention of having their decision making being a talking point in a negative fashion post match.

Totally different matter for the powers that be to carry out their usual review of his match day officiating and see where that leads.

This will be my last comment on this as it's time to move on but in no way shape or form was it even close to a red card and I've heard no one else suggest so.

Charlie69

formerlyET wrote: »

Making a bad call in a game is not disgraceful.

Hanging someone out to dry on national TV is, in my book.

Every single pundit I've heard comment on this incident agree that Owens got it completely wrong ( Including D Og Cusack and B Cummins on Sunday Game)... its interesting that you single out J Tyrell.

formerlyET

Charlie69 wrote: »

Every single pundit I've heard comment on this incident agree that Owens got it completely wrong ( Including D Og Cusack and B Cummins on Sunday Game)... its interesting that you single out J Tyrell.

Other commentators had a much different approach... that's a fact.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2021/0704/1233037-donal-og-has-sympathy-for-referee-james-owens/

Charlie69

formerlyET wrote: »

Other commentators had a much different approach... that's a fact.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2021/0704/1233037-donal-og-has-sympathy-for-referee-james-owens/

Maybe you could learn from them.

Grats

Charlie69 wrote: »

Every single pundit I've heard comment on this incident agree that Owens got it completely wrong ( Including D Og Cusack and B Cummins on Sunday Game)... its interesting that you single out J Tyrell.

Exactly.

Grats

formerlyET wrote: »

Other commentators had a much different approach... that's a fact.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2021/0704/1233037-donal-og-has-sympathy-for-referee-james-owens/

I'll ask you again, in your opinion was James Owens correct in awarding the penalty to Tipp?

newhouse87

Charlie69 wrote: »

Maybe you could learn from them.

Yeah because what some random guy says on an internet forum carries as much weight as what a pundit says on national tv. Pundits should know better with the current climate of social media pile ons.

Clareman

MfMan wrote: »

As a former ref though, do you think McCarthy could have gotten a straight-red for his dive-in? It was dangerous by any standards and would be a sending-off in other field sports.

Absolutely he could have gotten a red, clear play on the player, mistimed and dangerous, it would have been an extremely harsh red but it could have been 1 as could any number of other fouls in the game. At any time a ref has to make judgment call into the nature and severity of a tackle, for example when the Tipp fella hit Taylor across the face that was a yellow, if there wasn't a face guard it would have been a ref. For McCarthy's foul I think it was a clear yellow and a free in.

randd1

Owens got a few big calls wrong yesterday.

- The Tipp penalty was just a bad call. Quite how that was a clear goal scoring opportunity I don't know. That being said, there was no need for the foul either.
- The Cathal Barrett foul. A blatant yellow that was ignored due to the fact he gave a yellow that he shouldn't have in the first place. Evened itself out.
- The Shanaher incident should have been a Clare penalty. I can see why he didn't give it, in that Shanaher clearly swung Heffernan around. But Shanaher did so because Heffernan made no attempt to play the ball, and was dragging out him.

Now that Clare lost by 4 points it rankles and I can see why. That being said, overall Tipp were the team that found their men the better, and made more of their opportunities, and extremely good luck, than Clare did. Those Clare shots that dropped short were easily cancelled out by some of the poor Tipp wides in the last 20 minutes, and the four point margin was as much to do with Tipp easing off as Clare upping it a bit and pulling it back.

Still though, the two penalty calls. If I was from Clare I'd be absolutely fuming, and if I was from Tipp I'd be thanking James Owens for keeping them out of the qualifiers.

Charlie69

newhouse87 wrote: »

Yeah because what some random guy says on an internet forum carries as much weight as what a pundit says on national tv. Pundits should know better with the current climate of social media pile ons.

My point exactly...All pundits (plural) , not just the one being labeled a disgrace on here.

newhouse87

Charlie69 wrote: »

My point exactly...All pundits (plural) , not just the one being labeled a disgrace on here.

Tyrell was far more animated in his critique then a more measured Cummins and Cusack. He has form for this aswell, same on the 2019 final Sunday game show, was like spolit child. Its why i rather see henry on it, much more measured and not as emotional.

Happyilylost

formerlyET wrote:

Other commentators had a much different approach... that's a fact.

He also says Tipp scored 2-4 to 2 points in the period of the sin bin. "It had a massive impact on the game" "Clare were wronged and it had a huge impact on the game'

Yet you feel it wasn't that big a point in the game itself.

Grats

Tipperary animal lover wrote: »

The only Tipp person .... come on, been over dramatic here i think, it was wrong shouldn't have happened, when/if limerick best us in the final you'll have the pitch fork crowd on here saying tipp got what they deserved! We hadn't anything to do with the decision of the ref and that carry on, owens should be wearing a tipp jersey, we've like all other counties have had s'it decisions against us in matches, so don't be making out that all tipp people agree with what happened!

I asked the question, I never said Cummins is the only Tipp person. Fair play to you for agreeing that Owens got it wrong.

Charlie69

newhouse87 wrote: »

Tyrell was far more animated in his critique then a more measured Cummins and Cusack. He has form for this aswell, same on the 2019 final Sunday game show, was like spolit child. Its why i rather see henry on it, much more measured and not as emotional.

Maybe they had a bit more time to think about how they would articulate their feelings on it before the sunday game, to be fair to Jackie he's reacting to a very bizarre decision straight away at the final whistle.

Grats

newhouse87 wrote: »

Tyrell was far more animated in his critique then a more measured Cummins and Cusack. He has form for this aswell, same on the 2019 final Sunday game show, was like spolit child. Its why i rather see henry on it, much more measured and not as emotional.

Tyrell perfectly reflected how the vast majority of viewers felt. The game was killed off from the moment Owens awarded the penalty. Owens got it wrong. He deserves the criticism. It has nothing to do with Tipp players or supporters. They did nothing wrong.

Mad about baa baas

It wasn't a penalty but these things happen..I think clare took it very badly at the time and nearly threw in the towel.. you could imagine how something similar would galvanise other teams and drive them on..there was plenty time left at that stage.
Every team in Ireland can think of 10 bad referees decisions against their own team.. it's how you deal with them
Speaking of pundits I think tommy walsh is by far and away the pick of them.. he is very passionate, knowledgeable and fair..

lawred2

I see sheep wrote: »

Lohan's team were wronged unfairly, he was perfectly entitled to be critical of the ref.

Not sure that you even read what I wrote.

Referring to an incident a year ago calls into question the ref's integrity! The existence of a bias or disposition against Clare.

Whatever about highlighting the call yesterday, I don't think referring to previous games is acceptable.

I'm sure many think otherwise.

formerlyET

Charlie69 wrote: »

Maybe you could learn from them.

Lookin' out for your own.

No objectivity.

Tyrell is not supposed to be a man on a stool at a bar. He has a responsibility to the people in the game, especially refs. Not to hype angst or bad feeling against them. Therés been serious, stuff that's developed out of this kind of criticism.

Tyrell still has a chip on his shoulder from the 2019 All-Ireland as do a lot of KK guys on here gunning for Owens here and hiding behind this issue.

Tyrell in essence has a very limited vision of the game and the way he wants it played. And he is trying to bully Owens here. Real nasty stuff. No such thing as this should be discussed more at congress. No Jackie wants 'it thrown in the river.' People and the game need to be protected from the reactionary stuff that Tyrell comes out. Owens is a respected ref.

DDC1990

I might be on my own here but I don't think the Shanagher incident was a penalty.

Shanagher pulled Heffernan to begin with to get into position to get at the ball.

It was as much of a free out as a penalty.

Referee let the two lads at it and seems to be copping a lot of criticism for it.

I think of the Tipp penalty hadn't been given nobody would have given the Shanagher one a second thought.

crossman47

formerlyET wrote: »

Lookin' out for your own.

No objectivity.

Tyrell is not supposed to be a man on a stool at a bar. He has a responsibility to the people in the game, especially refs. Not to hype angst or bad feeling against them. Therés been serious, stuff that's developed out of this kind of criticism.

Tyrell still has a chip on his shoulder from the 2019 All-Ireland as do a lot of KK guys on here gunning for Owens here and hiding behind this issue.

Tyrell in essence has a very limited vision of the game and the way he wants it played. And he is trying to bully Owens here. Real nasty stuff. No such thing as this should be discussed more at congress. No Jackie wants 'it thrown in the river.' People and the game need to be protected from the reactionary stuff that Tyrell comes out. Owens is a respected ref.

I have no time for Kilkenny's usual attitude of "anything goes" but Tyrell is right here. Either the ref got it totally wrong or, if he was correct, this rule should be thrown out.

I see sheep

lawred2 wrote: »

Not sure that you even read what I wrote.

Referring to an incident a year ago calls into question the ref's integrity! The existence of a bias or disposition against Clare.

Whatever about highlighting the call yesterday, I don't think referring to previous games is acceptable.

I'm sure many think otherwise.

I'd say it calls into question his competence not his integrity.

formerlyET

GAA official guide. Rule 5.46

If one of the following infractions is committed on an attacking player with a goal-scoring opportunity, either inside the 20-metre line or the semi-circular arc

(a) To pull down an opponent or
(b) To trip an opponent with hands, arm, leg, foot, or hurley or
(c) To use the hurley in a careless manner

the following penalties shall apply

(i) A Penalty Puck shall be awarded to the team affected.
(ii) Additional to being issued a Caution (Yellow Card), the offender shall be sent to the Sin Bin for 10 minutes unless the infraction is a second Cautionable Infraction, in which case the offender shall be ordered off for the remainder of the game, including Extra-Time when played.


Two-time All-Ireland final referee Fergal Horgan suggested that officials would view all applicable fouls inside the 20 as goal-scoring opportunities as "If a player breaks the tackle on the 20-metre line, any inter-county player is well capable of putting the ball in the net from there."

puzl

The ref was perfectly entitled to judge it as a clear goal scoring opportunity. The rule is a bad implementation of a good idea.

We should definitely be double punishing professional fouling but I think somewhere along the way a simple idea got converted into a convoluted mess with this talk of clear goal scoring.


To me it's simple - take a man out intentionally inside the 20 and its a sin bin and penalty, Would it be so terrible if backs were coached to be extremely careful?

I see sheep

puzl wrote: »

We should definitely be double punishing professional fouling but I think somewhere along the way a simple idea got converted into a convoluted mess with this talk of clear goal scoring.


To me it's simple - take a man out intentionally inside the 20 and its a sin bin and penalty, Would it be so terrible if backs were coached to be extremely careful?

Then that should be the rule yes - any foul in the 20 is a sin bin and a penalty, takes the chance of refereeing mistakes away.

Otherwise like yesterday Clare get a sin bin when it's not a goal scoring opportunity, and Tipp don't get a sin bin when it probably was.

puzl

Well not any foul.. but any professional/sinister foul. There's always going to require ref judgement - there's simply no way to avoid it.

Basically a defender has to be careful to play the ball and not the man when inside the 20. Stand him up, don't drag him down. If he gets past you follow for a hook/block and don't just whack the **** out of his elbows as he goes by.

Rasputin11

puzl wrote: »

Well not any foul.. but any professional/sinister foul. There's always going to require ref judgement - there's simply no way to avoid it.

Basically a defender has to be careful to play the ball and not the man when inside the 20. Stand him up, don't drag him down. If he gets past you follow for a hook/block and don't just whack the **** out of his elbows as he goes by.

Good point, Eoin Cody took a few raw belts when finishing his goal on Saturday.

Rosita

formerlyET wrote: »

Lookin' out for your own.

No objectivity.

Tyrell is not supposed to be a man on a stool at a bar. He has a responsibility to the people in the game, especially refs. Not to hype angst or bad feeling against them. Therés been serious, stuff that's developed out of this kind of criticism.

Tyrell still has a chip on his shoulder from the 2019 All-Ireland as do a lot of KK guys on here gunning for Owens here and hiding behind this issue.

Tyrell in essence has a very limited vision of the game and the way he wants it played. And he is trying to bully Owens here. Real nasty stuff. No such thing as this should be discussed more at congress. No Jackie wants 'it thrown in the river.' People and the game need to be protected from the reactionary stuff that Tyrell comes out. Owens is a respected ref.

I think there's a fair bit in this. Tyrell brings no intellectual thrust to his analysis. The regularity with which Joanne Cantwell jumped in the point out what the rule actually said shows that he probably hasn't even read the rule. I actually have no problem if someone doesn't think the rule should be there but would be more convinced if I got the sense they had really thought the whole scenario through from a really informed position.

Charlie69

formerlyET wrote: »

Lookin' out for your own.

No objectivity.

Tyrell is not supposed to be a man on a stool at a bar. He has a responsibility to the people in the game, especially refs. Not to hype angst or bad feeling against them. Therés been serious, stuff that's developed out of this kind of criticism.

Tyrell still has a chip on his shoulder from the 2019 All-Ireland as do a lot of KK guys on here gunning for Owens here and hiding behind this issue.

Tyrell in essence has a very limited vision of the game and the way he wants it played. And he is trying to bully Owens here. Real nasty stuff. No such thing as this should be discussed more at congress. No Jackie wants 'it thrown in the river.' People and the game need to be protected from the reactionary stuff that Tyrell comes out. Owens is a respected ref.

None of that changes {or excuses} your display of double standards in relation to name calling and abuse.

formerlyET

Charlie69 wrote: »

None of that changes {or excuses} your display of double standards in relation to name calling and abuse.

Are you stuck on repeat?

I didn't name call anyone or abuse anyone.

You don't want to engage the actual issue because you know I'm right. So you keep banging this drum.

But knock yourself out, make the same point again.

Grats

formerlyET wrote: »

Are you stuck on repeat?

I didn't name call anyone or abuse anyone.

You don't want to engage the actual issue because you know I'm right. So you keep banging this drum.

But knock yourself out, make the same point again.

You're well able to be stuck in repeat mode yourself over and over. And during one of your episodes maybe you'd answer the question put to you - in your opinion was James Owens correct in awarding the penalty to Tipp?

Charlie69

formerlyET wrote: »

Are you stuck on repeat?

I didn't name call anyone or abuse anyone.

You don't want to engage the actual issue because you know I'm right. So you keep banging this drum.

But knock yourself out, make the same point again.

You quite clearly lectured everyone on here for using words like disgraceful in relation to James Owens performance and how it could impact on his mental health and the health of his family in general. You then went on to label J Tyrell a disgrace and a bully for his opinions on the matter.
If you can't see the double standard in that then I can't help you... the only reason I have to repeatedly make that point is because you can't accept you're wrong.
You don't get to decide who it's okay to direct personal abuse at.

formerlyET

Charlie69 wrote: »

You quite clearly lectured everyone on here for using words like disgraceful in relation to James Owens performance and how it could impact on his mental health and the health of his family in general. You then went on to label J Tyrell a disgrace and a bully for his opinions on the matter.
If you can't see the double standard in that then I can't help you... the only reason I have to repeatedly make that point is because you can't accept you're wrong.
You don't get to decide who it's okay to direct personal abuse at.

I haven't abused anyone. I called Tyrell out on his loose-mouth treatment of the ref. Huge difference. That you have a blind sport for Jackie Tyrell and his actions, and a need to protect him like it's some kind of crusade, is your own agenda. Keep it up.

formerlyET

Grats wrote: »

You're well able to be stuck in repeat mode yourself over and over. And during one of your episodes maybe you'd answer the question put to you - in your opinion was James Owens correct in awarding the penalty to Tipp?

By the letter of the law, I'd say yes.

I'll also say I've still yet to see a visual that shows men in front of Morris and between him and the goal. They all looked five to ten yards behind him from where I was sitting. I didn't have Owens angle.

Would I have given it? No. Yellow card and a free in the moment. But I have no reffing experience or anything like it. I'd never try it either.

Charlie69

formerlyET wrote: »

I haven't abused anyone. I called Tyrell out on his loose-mouth treatment of the ref. Huge difference. That you have a blind sport for Jackie Tyrell and his actions, and a need to protect him like it's some kind of crusade, is your own agenda. Keep it up.

Yes you called out Tyrell on his loose mouth treatment... and went on to excuse your own.

formerlyET

Charlie69 wrote: »

Yes you called out Tyrell on his loose mouth treatment... and went on to excuse your own.

I'd never engage in anything like that. But I would call it out.

Can you quote this loose mouth treatment?

Oh yeah, it's text.

Thanks.

Charlie69

formerlyET wrote: »

I'd never engage in anything like that. But I would call it out.

Can you quote this loose mouth treatment?

Oh yeah, it's text.

Thanks.

So that's okay then ? If it's in text?.... Incredible stuff.

formerlyET

Charlie69 wrote: »

So that's okay then ? If it's in text?.... Incredible stuff.

No, you're wilfully misreading now. Filling up the thread too.

Quote it. I didn't name call or bully anyone. I called it out. It's a disgrace that anyone would treat a ref like that on TV. 100%. I stand by that.

Repo101

DDC1990 wrote: »

I might be on my own here but I don't think the Shanagher incident was a penalty.

Shanagher pulled Heffernan to begin with to get into position to get at the ball.

It was as much of a free out as a penalty.

Referee let the two lads at it and seems to be copping a lot of criticism for it.

I think of the Tipp penalty hadn't been given nobody would have given the Shanagher one a second thought.

I agree. Shanagher started to pull Heffernan to maintain his position, it essentially forced Heffernan to play the man and not the ball as he had no chance of recovering.

The first penalty was incorrect but Clare should not have let the heads drop.

Happyilylost

formerlyET wrote:

I'll also say I've still yet to see a visual that shows men in front of Morris and between him and the goal. They all looked five to ten yards behind him from where I was sitting. I didn't have Owens angle.

In one angle it shows the Tipp lad just lifting the ball. Number 9 for Clare comes into the picture in the bottom right hand of the screen. He's on the 21 about about 20 metres closer to goal. What I don't get is when Owens looks up anyone to his right (towards the goal) is in a position to close him down well before he encroaches on the goal. The only way this decision makes sense (and it doesn't) is if he feels he's breaking the tackle taking four steps and hitting for goal. In that case its path was likely clear. But he's a mile away from the goal. Most likely scenario's are A) break the tackle tap it over (most likely in my view head for goal. No way he's getting a shot off unchallenged unless he's shooting from a mile out.

breezy1985

Happyilylost wrote: »

In one angle it shows the Tipp lad just lifting the ball. Number 9 for Clare comes into the picture in the bottom right hand of the screen. He's on the 21 about about 20 metres closer to goal. What I don't get is when Owens looks up anyone to his right (towards the goal) is in a position to close him down well before he encroaches on the goal. The only way this decision makes sense (and it doesn't) is if he feels he's breaking the tackle taking four steps and hitting for goal. In that case its path was likely clear. But he's a mile away from the goal. Most likely scenario's are A) break the tackle tap it over (most likely in my view head for goal. No way he's getting a shot off unchallenged unless he's shooting from a mile out.

It was a very rough and dangerous looking tackle on first view and I wonder if that influenced the decision either because it made it look more serious or was so fast and unexpected that he had no time to survey the scene.
It should not have been an influence but sometimes the aftermath can affect the decision

Happyilylost

dcr22B wrote:

Is he going to the NFL with his throwing skills in great demand?

breezy1985 wrote:

It was a very rough and dangerous looking tackle on first view and I wonder if that influenced the decision either because it made it look more serious or was so fast and unexpected that he had no time to survey the scene. It should not have been an influence but sometimes the aftermath can affect the decision

This popped into my head too. He made the decision very quick. Sometimes it's actually very good refereeing as if the ref deals with it in time it can stop players piling in and pushing and shoving breaking out. Rush in whip out the yellow and lads normally calm down. Probably could of done with taking a few seconds to think it over in this instance.