All Ireland Senior Hurling Championship (Liam McCarthy Cup) 2021

breezy1985

Happyilylost wrote: »

This popped into my head too. He made the decision very quick. Sometimes it's actually very good refereeing as if the ref deals with it in time it can stop players piling in and pushing and shoving breaking out. Rush in whip out the yellow and lads normally calm down. Probably could of done with taking a few seconds to think it over in this instance.

The player had absolutely no control over himself in that tackle and he could have gotten a red on another day. I wonder did Owens think maybe a yellow is not enough but a red is too much so used black as a compromise

Clareman

breezy1985 wrote: »

The player had absolutely no control over himself in that tackle and he could have gotten a red on another day. I wonder did Owens think maybe a yellow is not enough but a red is too much so used black as a compromise

That would make it even worse, that's pretty much making up his own rules. The day yesterday was very slippy and there were a number of tackles like that with players sliding in all around the place, it was yellow card, that was it

breezy1985

Clareman wrote: »

That would make it even worse, that's pretty much making up his own rules. The day yesterday was very slippy and there were a number of tackles like that with players sliding in all around the place, it was yellow card, that was it

Oh I'm not trying to defend his decision just musing on different reasons why he might have come to it.
It was definitely a mistake whatever the reason.

Whether it should have been yellow or red isn't the point there have definitely been reds handed out for players flying in uncontrolled after a lung bursting run like the 2019 final for instance

Clareman

Clareman wrote: »

That would make it even worse, that's pretty much making up his own rules. The day yesterday was very slippy and there were a number of tackles like that with players sliding in all around the place, it was yellow card, that was it

tbf to the ref, he only got to see the incident once, in real time. On initial viewing the Clare player is reckless in the contact he made, could easily have been red, imo. Course, the weather was shocking in Limerick yesterday morning and the pitch was slippy but that doesn't give the tackler a free pass to be reckless in contact.

Pogue eile

I find it heartwarming how concerned the KK lads about the welfare of Clare hurling, fair play!

Happyilylost

Deleted User wrote:

tbf to the ref, he only got to see the incident once, in real time. On initial viewing the Clare player is reckless in the contact he made, could easily have been red, imo. Course, the weather was shocking in Limerick yesterday morning and the pitch was slippy but that doesn't give the tackler a free pass to be reckless in contact.

I think life would be easier if we were arguing over whether it was a red or not. Where we are now is a s**t show.

Grats

formerlyET wrote: »

By the letter of the law, I'd say yes.

I'll also say I've still yet to see a visual that shows men in front of Morris and between him and the goal. They all looked five to ten yards behind him from where I was sitting. I didn't have Owens angle.

Would I have given it? No. Yellow card and a free in the moment. But I have no reffing experience or anything like it. I'd never try it either.

Thank you for replying. You agree with all the pundits and viewers who felt no penalty, but a yellow card and a free in.

Supporters and viewers were incensed at the time and the RTE pundits reflected that mood. The ref was not hung out to dry, as you suggest. The three pundits, and many others since, criticised the decision and were correct in doing so. You're doing your best to deflect from the mistake by having a go at pundits when in fact you agree it was not a penalty.

Please stop going around in circles supporting a bad decision by the ref when you honestly know he was wrong. Clare supporters are entitled to be angry over the issue. Tipp played no part in the wrong call. Pundits called it right.

Happyilylost

Happyilylost wrote: »

I think life would be easier if we were arguing over whether it was a red or not. Where we are now is a s**t show.

Absolutely, it was a strange call but if you look at how the Tipp player landed (flat out, face down) I can see why the instinctive reaction is it was serious foul play, rather than just a clumsy challenge. A red card probably seemed like the more controversial decision to the ref, at the time.

pajoguy

Munster Hurling final in Pairc Ui Chaoimh according to the Examiner.

irelandrover

Deleted User wrote: »

Absolutely, it was a strange call but if you look at how the Tipp player landed (flat out, face down) I can see why the instinctive reaction is it was serious foul play, rather than just a clumsy challenge. A red card probably seemed like the more controversial decision to the ref, at the time.

so youre saying that he thought it could be a red card, but didnt want to give one. So used a different rule that shouldnt have been applicable to punish him instead.

To be honest that is even worse.

irelandrover

irelandrover wrote: »

so youre saying that he thought it could be a red card, but didnt want to give one. So used a different rule that shouldnt have been applicable to punish him instead.

To be honest that is even worse.

It might be worse, I'm not sure, but I can see how it happened. I doubt any ref wants to spend Monday morning justifying red cards, especially in a close, high profile game.

I can easily imagine the ref thinking "ffs, I've to send this goon off now, and the Sunday Game lads will be all over it".

Not saying that's the correct way to think about it, but I can see how it happens.

PTH2009

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/all-ireland-fixtures-throw-in-times-confirmed-for-leinster-and-munster-hurling-finals-1.4611936?mode=amp

Qualifiers process interesting from this

'Antrim or Laois will be drawn against one of the Munster teams, which must include Waterford as a defeated quarter-finalist. Either Galway or Wexford will be drawn against Clare or Cork. The two teams left over, which will be from the group Galway, Wexford, Clare and Cork, will get a bye to the second round.'

Charlie69

formerlyET wrote: »

No, you're wilfully misreading now. Filling up the thread too.

Quote it. I didn't name call or bully anyone. I called it out. It's a disgrace that anyone would treat a ref like that on TV. 100%. I stand by that.

No you said he was a disgrace and a bully which makes you a hypocrite... happy to leave it at that.

Sunny Disposition

Happyilylost wrote: »

In one angle it shows the Tipp lad just lifting the ball. Number 9 for Clare comes into the picture in the bottom right hand of the screen. He's on the 21 about about 20 metres closer to goal. What I don't get is when Owens looks up anyone to his right (towards the goal) is in a position to close him down well before he encroaches on the goal. The only way this decision makes sense (and it doesn't) is if he feels he's breaking the tackle taking four steps and hitting for goal. In that case its path was likely clear. But he's a mile away from the goal. Most likely scenario's are A) break the tackle tap it over (most likely in my view head for goal. No way he's getting a shot off unchallenged unless he's shooting from a mile out.

It was surely one of the worst decisions ever seen in a big game, absolutely non sensical.
People criticising the rule are missing the point, it was nothing to do with the rule really, just a ref making up his own version of it.
Awful refereeing, kinda feel sorry for Owens because of the extent of the backlash, but he surely can't get another game this summer.
People saying he only had one look, had to make a split second decision are missing the point too. It was a really, really simple decision.

Happyilylost

Deleted User wrote:

It might be worse, I'm not sure, but I can see how it happened. I doubt any ref wants to spend Monday morning justifying red cards, especially in a close, high profile game.

Deleted User wrote:

I can easily imagine the ref thinking "ffs, I've to send this goon off now, and the Sunday Game lads will be all over it".

Deleted User wrote:

Not saying that's the correct way to think about it, but I can see how it happens.

As a Galway man and no skin in this it's intriguing from a human nature perspective. In those few seconds seeing the challenge did Richie Hogan and that madness flash in his mind? Send Mccarthy off and Clare have no way back. Everyone talking about it for days on end. Instead. He's inside the 21, he's been tripped up it's a stretch to say he's heading for goal unchallenged but f**k it it's 15 on 15 in ten minutes time with plenty of the game left.

It's not beyond the realm of possibility he thought penalty/sin bin was lesser of two evils.

Sunny Disposition

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

It was surely one of the worst decisions ever seen in a big game, absolutely non sensical.
People criticising the rule are missing the point, it was nothing to do with the rule really, just a ref making up his own version of it.
Awful refereeing, kinda feel sorry for Owens because of the extent of the backlash, but he surely can't get another game this summer.
People saying he only had one look, had to make a split second decision are missing the point too. It was a really, really simple decision.

Was it though? We have the benefit of replays etc and there's debate over whether it was red or yellow, reckless or clumsy etc.

I don't agree with the outcome btw, but can I see how the decision was reached.

irelandrover

Deleted User wrote: »

Was it though? We have the benefit of replays etc and there's debate over whether it was red or yellow, reckless or clumsy etc.

I don't agree with the outcome btw, but can I see how the decision was reached.

Absolutely no one at the time thought it was a penalty and a sin bin. That to me would suggest that it was an easy enough decision.

I get what you're saying about how he got to the decision.

Happyilylost

Happyilylost wrote: »

As a Galway man and no skin in this it's intriguing from a human nature perspective. In those few seconds seeing the challenge did Richie Hogan and that madness flash in his mind? Send Mccarthy off and Clare have no way back. Everyone talking about it for days on end. Instead. He's inside the 21, he's been tripped up it's a stretch to say he's heading for goal unchallenged but f**k it it's 15 on 15 in ten minutes time with plenty of the game left.

It's not beyond the realm of possibility he thought penalty/sin bin was lesser of two evils.

I think the vagueness of the concept of a "goal chance" doesn't help the ref. It's not like in rugby where a definite try is stopped by foul play. It's a vaguer concept, almost "if play had continued could a goal have been scored" (which must cover just about every foul inside the 21 tbh).

It don't think it was a goal chance as in the goal wasn't definitely on, but it's certainly arguable an unimpeded run towards goal was stopped.

letowski

PTH2009 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/all-ireland-fixtures-throw-in-times-confirmed-for-leinster-and-munster-hurling-finals-1.4611936?mode=amp

Qualifiers process interesting from this

'Antrim or Laois will be drawn against one of the Munster teams, which must include Waterford as a defeated quarter-finalist. Either Galway or Wexford will be drawn against Clare or Cork. The two teams left over, which will be from the group Galway, Wexford, Clare and Cork, will get a bye to the second round.'

One just knows Clare will be playing Wexford. It's in the stars, with everything that has gone on off the field with Clare GAA.

Pogue eile

letowski wrote: »

One just knows Clare will be playing Wexford. It's in the stars, with everything that has gone on off the field with Clare GAA.

You would really hope it doesn't happen to be honest, would just turn into a circus and wouldn't be fair on either set of players especially.

ChippingSodbury

irelandrover wrote: »

Absolutely no one at the time thought it was a penalty and a sin bin. That to me would suggest that it was an easy enough decision.

I get what you're saying about how he got to the decision.

I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion: did you survey everyone directly after the incident? Owens has a couple of seconds to make up his mind, no replays/ different angles etc.

Deleted User wrote: »

I think the vagueness of the concept of a "goal chance" doesn't help the ref. It's not like in rugby where a definite try is stopped by foul play. It's a vaguer concept, almost "if play had continued could a goal have been scored" (which must cover just about every foul inside the 21 tbh).

It don't think it was a goal chance as in the goal wasn't definitely on, but it's certainly arguable an unimpeded run towards goal was stopped.

The rules need a certain amount of vagueness or they'd be 1000 pages long to cover every eventuality. No referee is perfect, they all make mistakes and I would concur with what seems to be the large majority here and say he made a mistake. Does it make him a bad referee because of that decision? I don't think so.

Everyone seems to be arguing for the impossible i.e. a 100% perfect, no mistakes ever referee. They don't exist, they never did and they never will. The choices are:
a) continue as we are with referees doing their best (my choice). Maybe a little more consultation with the other officials at the game for big calls.
b) use a VAR-type system and slow everything down (and still get disagreements: just look across the water and see how many disagreements still happen over VAR decisions)
c) play with no referee and let the players come to a consensus on each decision (should be some laugh!)
c) give it all up as a bad job and play no more games because the rules are too complicated for a mere mortal referee to implement

Any other ideas? I'd be interested in seeing how others here would phrase the rule (sin bin).

Rosita

irelandrover wrote: »

Absolutely no one at the time thought it was a penalty and a sin bin. That to me would suggest that it was an easy enough decision.

.

Not quite absolutely noone. The only guy watching the play who has been given a thorough grounding in the new rule, with discussion of scenarios, example discussed etc., though it was a penalty and a sin bin. Everybody else is Jackie Tyrell it seems - "I had no idea what the rule actually states but throw id in the river".

Rosita

Deleted User wrote: »

I think the vagueness of the concept of a "goal chance" doesn't help the ref. It's not like in rugby where a definite try is stopped by foul play. It's a vaguer concept, almost "if play had continued could a goal have been scored" (which must cover just about every foul inside the 21 tbh).

It don't think it was a goal chance as in the goal wasn't definitely on, but it's certainly arguable an unimpeded run towards goal was stopped.

No such thing as a definite try. It's still a judgement.

formerlyET

Charlie69 wrote: »

No you said he was a disgrace and a bully which makes you a hypocrite... happy to leave it at that.

In your interpretation.

Tyrell has cultivated this "brand", starting with his book, and is playing to it. And it will come a cropper, just like Joe Brolly.

More than happy to leave it at that.

greenspurs

Deleted User wrote: »

It don't think it was a goal chance as in the goal wasn't definitely on, but it's certainly arguable an unimpeded run towards goal was stopped.

Maybe , but Walter Walsh did score a goal from a similar angle against Wexford.

Sunny Disposition

Deleted User wrote: »

Was it though? We have the benefit of replays etc and there's debate over whether it was red or yellow, reckless or clumsy etc.

I don't agree with the outcome btw, but can I see how the decision was reached.

It was, the decision was a really easy one for any person sound of mind, there were no replays needed, it was a very simple decision to get right.

Charlie69

formerlyET wrote: »

In your interpretation.

Tyrell has cultivated this "brand", starting with his book, and is playing to it. And it will come a cropper, just like Joe Brolly.

More than happy to leave it at that.

What you said about Jackie didn't actually bother me at all... I was just pointing out the double standard and the hypocrisy of your lecture on mental health.

formerlyET

Charlie69 wrote: »

What you said about Jackie didn't actually bother me at all... I was just pointing out the double standard and the hypocrisy of your lecture on mental health.

There is no hypocrisy. For you there is.

I gave no lecture on mental health.

I've asked you to prove and quote these things that you're making up but you don't seem to want to.

Clareman

For me it's very disappointing that after a weekend with 4 great games of hurling that all the talk is about a referee and their mistakes.

BENDYBINN

Happyilylost wrote: »

In one angle it shows the Tipp lad just lifting the ball. Number 9 for Clare comes into the picture in the bottom right hand of the screen. He's on the 21 about about 20 metres closer to goal. What I don't get is when Owens looks up anyone to his right (towards the goal) is in a position to close him down well before he encroaches on the goal. The only way this decision makes sense (and it doesn't) is if he feels he's breaking the tackle taking four steps and hitting for goal. In that case its path was likely clear. But he's a mile away from the goal. Most likely scenario's are A) break the tackle tap it over (most likely in my view head for goal. No way he's getting a shot off unchallenged unless he's shooting from a mile out.

Answer me this... If it wasn’t a goal chance why was he so brutally taken down by the clareman?

Ref got it right.

breezy1985

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Answer me this... If it wasn’t a goal chance why was he so brutally taken down by the clareman?

Ref got it right.

I think the Clare lads was just running a lot faster than he knew how to stop from. It was a horrible looking tackle but I don't think he meant to go in sliding like that

Happyilylost

BENDYBINN wrote:

Answer me this... If it wasn’t a goal chance why was he so brutally taken down by the clareman?

I've seen lads hit as hard on their own 21. They turned over the ball in a poor area and a rash decision was made. Only a wizard is scoring a goal unchallenged from where he was.

breezy1985

Simple answer to all this is a bigger penalty area for hurling and Fk all this interpretation stuff

BENDYBINN

Happyilylost wrote: »

I've seen lads hit as hard on their own 21. They turned over the ball in a poor area and a rash decision was made. Only a wizard is scoring a goal unchallenged from where he was.

Draw the man and lay off the pass.......huge goal chance.

Grats

PTH2009 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/all-ireland-fixtures-throw-in-times-confirmed-for-leinster-and-munster-hurling-finals-1.4611936?mode=amp

Qualifiers process interesting from this

'Antrim or Laois will be drawn against one of the Munster teams, which must include Waterford as a defeated quarter-finalist. Either Galway or Wexford will be drawn against Clare or Cork. The two teams left over, which will be from the group Galway, Wexford, Clare and Cork, will get a bye to the second round.'

Why is the Leinster quarter final loser not treated the same as the Minster loser? In other words why do Waterford, beaten garter finalist, get the chance of drawing Laois or Antrim? Why not put all the teams into the draw drum together?

bonzothedog

First off I am from Clare

1- McCarthy's challenge was clumsy and deliberate and definitely a yellow card.
2- Certainly wasn't a red
3- Certainly wasn't a goal scoring chance
4- It did change the game completely
5- Clare struggled to get back into the game and actually were struggling in the first half too until Kelly's goal.
6- James Owens has been poor in Clare games before and no-one in Clare was happy to see him reffing this.
7- Tipp would have probably won the game anyway.

Mad about baa baas

Clareman wrote: »

For me it's very disappointing that after a weekend with 4 great games of hurling that all the talk is about a referee and their mistakes.

Could not agree more..very few talking about Dublin being very impressive and leaving galway with an an almost impossible task to win the all Ireland
Eoin cody is the real deal
Tj defies logic and time
Did seamie callinan mean that goal or was it mis hit
Will cork ever win an all Ireland again
Have limerick regressed or are they timing their tun

formerlyET

Clareman wrote: »

For me it's very disappointing that after a weekend with 4 great games of hurling that all the talk is about a referee and their mistakes.

!!!! You've been obsessed with it!!!! And driven that talk!

Joe_ Public

Mad about baa baas wrote: »

Could not agree more..very few talking about Dublin being very impressive and leaving galway with an an almost impossible task to win the all Ireland
Eoin cody is the real deal
Tj defies logic and time
Did seamie callinan mean that goal or was it mis hit
Will cork ever win an all Ireland again
Have limerick regressed or are they timing their tun

Callanans was a miss hit, no question. TJ is 33, a supreme athlete who loves what he does and looks after himself, i honestly don't see he's defying logic at all. Couple of good seasons in him yet. The rest i can only put in the time will tell category.

formerlyET

Highlights of the weekend for me?

Eoin Cody's performance.

Rory O'Connor's points.

Cian Lynch's performance.

Chris Crummey's goal.

Jason Forde's performance.

Darragh Fitzgibbon's point.

Quaid's penalty save.

ChippingSodbury

formerlyET wrote: »

Highlights of the weekend for me?

Eoin Cody's performance.

Rory O'Connor's points.

Cian Lynch's performance.

Chris Crummey's goal.

Jason Forde's performance.

Darragh Fitzgibbon's point.

I'd add to that Quaid's penalty save. Eoin Cody is class. Disappointed with Jack O'Connor but his day will come: he scored 3 but he has lots more in the tank imo.

formerlyET

ChippingSodbury wrote: »

I'd add to that Quaid's penalty save. Eoin Cody is class. Disappointed with Jack O'Connor but his day will come: he scored 3 but he has lots more in the tank imo.

Yeah, good call. Quaid's save was top drawer.

Glenomra

Re the limerick match, and as a clareman, I would add in Diarmuid Byrnes's second half catch, phenomenal, and Kyle Hayes's runfrom half back to score a great goal.

formerlyET

Glenomra wrote: »

Re the limerick match, and as a clareman, I would add in Diarmuid Byrnes's second half catch, phenomenal, and Kyle Hayes's runfrom half back to score a great goal.

What was better than the run was the finish. Perfect trajectory - bounce into the side netting. Class.
But was it Robbie O'Flynn who didn't track the run? He just stopped.

breezy1985

Grats wrote: »

Why is the Leinster quarter final loser not treated the same as the Minster loser? In other words why do Waterford, beaten garter finalist, get the chance of drawing Laois or Antrim? Why not put all the teams into the draw drum together?

Because there are 6 teams in Leinster so a relegation playoff is needed

breezy1985

formerlyET wrote: »

Yeah, good call. Quaid's save was top drawer.

I would say it was the best moment of the weekend but overall there was plenty of contenders with some great goals from all 4 teams in Munster and some class saves from the Dublin keeper too from the games I saw

formerlyET

breezy1985 wrote: »

I would say it was the best moment of the weekend but overall there was plenty of contenders with some great goals from all 4 teams in Munster and some class saves from the Dublin keeper too from the games I saw

It was a crucial moment and supreme skill.

Walter Walsh goal was savage too.

breezy1985

formerlyET wrote: »

It was a crucial moment and supreme skill.

Walter Walsh goal was savage too.

As much as I was slagging off the ground hurling fanatics on here in the past the Tipp goal off the ground was amazing and the pass off the ground for the Clare goal

Joe_ Public

That clip in KK-Wex game highlighted on rte that went 2 minutes end to end with multiple hooks, flicks and turnovers was one of the moments for me. Of course, all those individual bits of skill mentioned above are magic, but that was an illustration of the collective range of skills that make the game great. It was "real championship hurling" as folk are wont to say.

cnoc

breezy1985 wrote: »

I would say it was the best moment of the weekend but overall there was plenty of contenders with some great goals from all 4 teams in Munster and some class saves from the Dublin keeper too from the games I saw

Cork must/are thinking that Nicky Quaid has a jinx over them!